You're neglecting zone starts, which really contribute to possession numbers and scoring.

Subban and Markov see > 51% OZs -- a nice balance of minutes, and honestly, if I'm Therrien, I'm giving them a higher amount. Emelin's right there at about 50%.

Gorges sees 45%, Diaz 44%. Those are the two that stand-out as statistically significant.

There's nothing about reliability here. Subban can eat up defensive zone minutes and play well in them, I don't doubt that. Great coaches know how to fix deployment, though. Therrien probably could even skew it a bit further, if you ask me.

Vigneault's been riding the Sedin twins into lofty minutes for the past five years, and really, it's just smart matching. If you want the Sedin twins to play a two-way, balanced game, you're not extrapolating proper output, and you're going to need a bunch of bottom-six plugs to pick up scoring slack in OZ TOI.
- Travis Yost

I agree with everything you said. The question was about Subban and the Norris...which i don't think he should win (also didn't think Karlsson should win it last year). Imo the best defenseman is not the top scorer. Chara should win it every year in my books but meh..

Just think of the contract extension we need o offer Ryder, let alone Subban.
Then Again maybe Ryder's goals shouldn't be important since they are only PP goals with very little productivity ES>
- willey101

Why even offer Ryder an extension with so many prospects ready to fill that hole in scoring if he walks?

I agree with everything you said. The question was about Subban and the Norris...which i don't think he should win (also didn't think Karlsson should win it last year). Imo the best defenseman is not the top scorer. Chara should win it every year in my books but meh..
- God_then_kovy

Child, please. There were at least 4 defensemen better than Chara last year.

Why even offer Ryder an extension with so many prospects ready to fill that hole in scoring if he walks?
- TommyDeVito

Because we have a ton of prospects but none are ready yet. Gallagher and Galchenyuk are there. We then have a ton of guys like Collberg, kristo, Hudon, Vail, but none of these kids have any pro experience.

Actually most will not in be eligible for the Hammer next year.

If Ryder is not retained then there is a crazy void in our forward unit with no relief on the horizon.

Child, please. There were at least 4 defensemen better than Chara last year.
- TommyDeVito

Chara was not the best Dman last year, i agree.. Overall D was Weber but he spends so much time keeping the puck out of the net that his point totals suffered. It's time to create the Orr trophy for Dman with the most points. Or at least best offensive Dman and best overall Dman

Remember, I am by no means saying PK outright deserves the Norris here, only that his performance is getting there and between he and Markov, there's a Norris worthy defender between the two of them.

I agree that stats take the shine off of some of the accomplishments, but it's still all gravy as far as the Habs are concerned.

As with Karlsson, there's still plenty of development left to be had for Subban, but he can no longer be written off or ignored.

All in all, it's just another piece of the puzzle that has helped the team in its turnaround and if he can continue to improve, it's more a matter of when he'll be in the mix, not if.

Great comments and debate, by the way, keep it up!

Remember, I am by no means saying PK outright deserves the Norris here, only that his performance is getting there and between he and Markov, there's a Norris worthy defender between the two of them.

I agree that stats take the shine off of some of the accomplishments, but it's still all gravy as far as the Habs are concerned.

As with Karlsson, there's still plenty of development left to be had for Subban, but he can no longer be written off or ignored.

All in all, it's just another piece of the puzzle that has helped the team in its turnaround and if he can continue to improve, it's more a matter of when he'll be in the mix, not if.

Great comments and debate, by the way, keep it up!
- hindlehabs

What???, PK won't win the Norris. We had your back man....traitor.

Child, please. There were at least 4 defensemen better than Chara last year.
- TommyDeVito

Weber deserved it more than Karlsson last year because he's a more complete defenseman. This year i think guys like Suter and Chara who put fear into the opposition's hearts when playing in their own zone deserve it more than Subban. But the award is given to the best offensive defenseman before it's given to the best defensive defeseman which makes it worthless in my books. Understand my point, son?

What???, PK won't win the Norris. We had your back man....traitor.
- willey101

He can. Plenty of time left for him to continue making his statement, just making sure my emphasis on his impact, regardless of Norris talk, is clear!

Bruins fans might start with "Subban is a diver," but if Ray Bourque identified the potential in the Montreal blue-liner, well, that should be good enough for anyone.

Bruins fans never have questioned his potential or his skill. He is well on his way to being a great player. However he posses enough talent and skill to not have to pull the bullpoop that he does. That's what makes him frustrating to fans of many other teams not just Bruins fans...nice cheap shot though.

You can begin/resume your Marchand, Chara or both bashing now. Enjoy the rest of your day!

He looks great out there, no question, but it hasn't been even CLOSE to top 3 in the league, especially when the vast majority of his points are on the man-advantage - he's only scored 10 even strength points through 31 games.

He's also 4th on his own team in TOI among defensemen, not exactly a common quality among Norris winners....

Lastly, the player usage charts for Habs defensemen shows he's being sheltered more than any other D on the team, with Diaz/Gorges/Yemelin/Markov taking all the tough opponents and D zone starts:



They do make one hell of a PP pairing, but based on all of the above there's simply no way he's a Norris candidate. The PP skill is mostly what he's bringing to the table.
- TommyDeVito

I agree with a lot of this but he will still finish second in norris voting if he continues his pace.

Bruins fans never have questioned his potential or his skill. He is well on his way to being a great player. However he posses enough talent and skill to not have to pull the bullpoop that he does. That's what makes him frustrating to fans of many other teams not just Bruins fans...nice cheap shot though.

You can begin/resume your Marchand, Chara or both bashing now. Enjoy the rest of your day!
- glove_was_stuck

You may not have but most, or at least the vocal ones, have from day one.

Bruins fans never have questioned his potential or his skill. He is well on his way to being a great player. However he posses enough talent and skill to not have to pull the bullpoop that he does. That's what makes him frustrating to fans of many other teams not just Bruins fans...nice cheap shot though.

You can begin/resume your Marchand, Chara or both bashing now. Enjoy the rest of your day!
- glove_was_stuck

I agree with this. I don't like when he dives at all.

He's also 4th on his own team in TOI among defensemen, not exactly a common quality among Norris winners....

- TommyDeVito

so you're saying; when considering him for the Norris, that it looks worse for him that he is doing more in LESS time than the other top D?

this is the reason PK can never do right to some fans, always gotta go digging for whats wrong...even in the positive

I can't recall a winner of the Norris trophy that was not the leader in points by a defenseman at the end of the season?

If someone can point one out, I will stand corrected.

My point is, regardless of all the other stats that are being tossed out for discussion, if PK Subban has the most points by a defenseman come season's end, then he will likely win the Norris. I am pretty sure that the Norris is awarded primarily on points, with maybe the +/- differential being considered. The only debate here is would he have won it had it been a full season and the injuries to the other top D-men never happened but, ultimately, those are moot points.

You do an adorable impression of a hockey fan, Tommy.

Subban plays shutdown defense. You know who doesn't? Erik Karlsson.
- oniremosewa

on point

we all love Karlsson but this is something we ALL know, so it makes it even funnier to hear the PK criticism from a Sens fan

You may not have but most, or at least the vocal ones, have from day one.
- muffin_man

Then they're blind...I guess. I don't like the Habs but good players are good players and you never know where they'll end up. I'd take that cannon of a shot on my team anyday.

I agree with this. I don't like when he dives at all.
- God_then_kovy

I disagree. I think you're trying very hard to be subjective,bro.

I can't recall a winner of the Norris trophy that was not the leader in points by a defenseman at the end of the season?

If someone can point one out, I will stand corrected.

My point is, regardless of all the other stats that are being tossed out for discussion, if PK Subban has the most points by a defenseman come season's end, then he will likely win the Norris. I am pretty sure that the Norris is awarded primarily on points, with maybe the +/- differential being considered. The only debate here is would he have won it had it been a full season and the injuries to the other top D-men never happened but, ultimately, those are moot points.
- MadManPaddy

Lubomir Vishnovsky - 2011 - 68pts - +18 = no norris

not that long ago, and probably why Lubo could care less about being in the NHL....but yeah Lubomir Vishnovsky lost it even though he had more points and a better +/- than Lidstrom

not that i'm saying he deserved it over Lidstrom since we know that with that legend the numbers dont tell the story, its just that based on how it was usually decided he definetly got shafted that year

so you're saying; when considering him for the Norris, that it looks worse for him that he is doing more in LESS time than the other top D?

this is the reason PK can never do right to some fans, always gotta go digging for whats wrong...even in the positive
- Habitants98

Nonsense!

Lubomir Vishnovsky - 2011 - 68pts - +18 = no norris

not that long ago, and probably why Lubo could care less about being in the NHL....but yeah Lubomir Vishnovsky lost it even though he had more points and a better +/- than Lidstrom

not that i'm saying he deserved it over Lidstrom since we know that with that legend the numbers dont tell the story, its just that based on how it was usually decided he definetly got shafted that year
- Habitants98

Your right, I also discovered that Chara won it in 08/09 even though Green had a 26 point lead over him.

So, I do stand corrected

Weber deserved it more than Karlsson last year because he's a more complete defenseman. This year i think guys like Suter and Chara who put fear into the opposition's hearts when playing in their own zone deserve it more than Subban. But the award is given to the best offensive defenseman before it's given to the best defensive defeseman which makes it worthless in my books. Understand my point, son?
- God_then_kovy

It goes to the player who plays the best hockey at his position all-around, and it sure as hell did last year. Don't be jealous.

Anyone yammering on about putting "fear into hearts" is demonstrating they're more Don Cherry than legitimate hockey analyst.

Bruins fans never have questioned his potential or his skill. He is well on his way to being a great player. However he posses enough talent and skill to not have to pull the bullpoop that he does. That's what makes him frustrating to fans of many other teams not just Bruins fans...nice cheap shot though.

You can begin/resume your Marchand, Chara or both bashing now. Enjoy the rest of your day!
- glove_was_stuck

What about Lucic?

It goes to the player who plays the best hockey at his position all-around, and it sure as hell did last year. Don't be jealous.

Anyone yammering on about putting "fear into hearts" is demonstrating they're more Don Cherry than legitimate hockey analyst.
- TommyDeVito

on point

we all love Karlsson but this is something we ALL know, so it makes it even funnier to hear the PK criticism from a Sens fan
- Habitants98

Go ahead, hate on the best all around defenseman and most dominant back end presence in the game. Only makes you look worse.

I wasn't criticizing PK, he's a great player and I said it twice now. But if you think 20 power play points and playing "shut-down defense" against third line players constitutes a Norris candidate, you're delusional.