Jason Smith
Kimmo Timonen
Brayden Coburn
Andre Meszaros
Matt Carle
Chris Pronger
Nik Grossmann
Luke Schenn


- MJL

w/ the exception of coburn, these players cost, roughly
8 1st rndrs, 2 2nd rndrs, and 2 3rd rndrs. coburn was a case of the flyers using positive leverage on a desperate club at the TDL like i mentioned. except coby, IIRC, none (maybe carle) went thru ELC period which became harder to deal with as the payroll went up. when we ran out of 2nd rndrs, some yrs, could we have used them to sweeten deals that never came to fruition? did we lose plyrs as a result of this inefficiency? yes. we even buried gautier in the minors and paid a 2nd rndr to do him a solid. even if it's a given that you're only paying mkt price for dmen you don't draft, prices seem to be going up...the value of the position has never been greater.

now imagine if we drafted and developed maybe 2 of our own instead of these guys. how many more assets could have been at our disposal? how much more cap space might we have had at critical junctures? see, it does matter how you obtain players. it has to be a mix of draft trade and FA. if you don't have enuf ELCs going at any given time, it's costly. and let's not forget being forced to take a lead weight contract that takes you closer to the 50 limit while gaining little if any utility from the player. if nobody wants the plyr and your tight to the limit, you're less likely to take a shot at an ellerby or a y weber because you're maxed out. it's a given that this mgmt can't be perfected, but as i've clearly illustrated, it must be improved going forward...esp w/ some of the old options for burying bad deals now coming off the table. asset mgmt matters.

w/ the exception of coburn, these players cost, roughly
8 1st rndrs, 2 2nd rndrs, and 2 3rd rndrs. coburn was a case of the flyers using positive leverage on a desperate club at the TDL like i mentioned. except coby, IIRC, none (maybe carle) went thru ELC period which became harder to deal with as the payroll went up. when we ran out of 2nd rndrs, some yrs, could we have used them to sweeten deals that never came to fruition? did we lose plyrs as a result of this inefficiency? yes. we even buried gautier in the minors and paid a 2nd rndr to do him a solid. even if it's a given that you're only paying mkt price for dmen you don't draft, prices seem to be going up...the value of the position has never been greater.

now imagine if we drafted and developed maybe 2 of our own instead of these guys. how many more assets could have been at our disposal? how much more cap space might we have had at critical junctures? see, it does matter how you obtain players. it has to be a mix of draft trade and FA. if you don't have enuf ELCs going at any given time, it's costly. and let's not forget being forced to take a lead weight contract that takes you closer to the 50 limit while gaining little if any utility from the player. if nobody wants the plyr and your tight to the limit, you're less likely to take a shot at an ellerby or a y weber because you're maxed out. it's a given that this mgmt can't be perfected, but as i've clearly illustrated, it must be improved going forward...esp w/ some of the old options for burying bad deals now coming off the table. asset mgmt matters.
- isaiah520

bottom line is that the team has been terrible at drafting defensemen and goalies forever, and it simply costs more to acquire them than develop them yourself- whether it's in players, picks, money, or a combination of those. with the cap now firmly cemented in place going on a decade, it's important more than ever to keep your picks, choose wisely, and hope for a little luck. so what i'm saying is that i agree with you.

Talk is cheap. Recap, please.

Recap > Backread of cheap talk

bottom line is that the team has been terrible at drafting defensemen and goalies forever, and it simply costs more to acquire them than develop them yourself- whether it's in players, picks, money, or a combination of those. with the cap now firmly cemented in place going on a decade, it's important more than ever to keep your picks, choose wisely, and hope for a little luck. so what i'm saying is that i agree with you.
- hammarby31

Well, they selected 4 defensemen in the 2012 entry draft. One(Gostisbehere) was a solid contributor to the US WJC winning team. Another(Reece Willcox) is playing some very solid hockey at Cornell. They also traded for another (Mark Alt) who is a former 2nd rounder playing solid in the NCAA ranks.

They also nabbed a goalie, Anthony Stolarz, who has played very well since leaving his collegiate team to play in the CHL.

Well, they selected 4 defensemen in the 2012 entry draft. One(Gostisbehere) was a solid contributor to the US WJC winning team. Another(Reece Willcox) is playing some very solid hockey at Cornell. They also traded for another (Mark Alt) who is a former 2nd rounder playing solid in the NCAA ranks.

They also nabbed a goalie, Anthony Stolarz, who has played very well since leaving his collegiate team to play in the CHL.
- Jsaquella

I think we're beyond facts now, John.

Talk is cheap. Recap, please.

Recap > Backread of cheap talk
- Flyskippy

Well, lot of talk about the draft, possible future of Laviolette and Holmgren, buying out Briere, How big a douche Skippy is, Giroux's captaincy and the rest of the leadership group and Timonen's contract

I think we're beyond facts now, John.
- Flyskippy

Now?

Well, lot of talk about the draft, possible future of Laviolette and Holmgren, buying out Briere, How big a douche Skippy is, Giroux's captaincy and the rest of the leadership group and Timonen's contract
- Jsaquella

So pretty much just another day huh? Is ob around? I want to know if he's moved Drouin to #1 on his list yet.

So pretty much just another day huh? Is ob around? I want to know if he's moved Drouin to #1 on his list yet.
- canadianpenfan

He's got Drouin and Barkov ahead of MacKinnon, still think he's got Jones at the top

I like Homer is staying patient. I hope they realize with all the injuries it's been tough, but at least they cn evaluate the players that filled in. Young team, go from here. Lots of chips to play with to change the team dynamics, but patience is essential.

He's got Drouin and Barkov ahead of MacKinnon, still think he's got Jones at the top
- Jsaquella

It's a pretty solid looking top 5 anyway you slice it.

Well, lot of talk about the draft, possible future of Laviolette and Holmgren, buying out Briere, How big a douche Skippy is, Giroux's captaincy and the rest of the leadership group and Timonen's contract
- Jsaquella

Just as I tho--

Buying out Briere?!?

Now?
- Jsaquella

Sometimes I have A material.

It's a pretty solid looking top 5 anyway you slice it.
- canadianpenfan

Flyers will finish 6th worst and somehow get moved to 7th via lottery.

Sometimes I have A material.
- Flyskippy

Source?

Flyers will finish 6th worst and somehow get moved to 7th via lottery.
- Flyskippy

I retract my previous question.

Source?
- canadianpenfan

I retract my previous question.
- canadianpenfan

w/ the exception of coburn, these players cost, roughly
8 1st rndrs, 2 2nd rndrs, and 2 3rd rndrs. coburn was a case of the flyers using positive leverage on a desperate club at the TDL like i mentioned. except coby, IIRC, none (maybe carle) went thru ELC period which became harder to deal with as the payroll went up. when we ran out of 2nd rndrs, some yrs, could we have used them to sweeten deals that never came to fruition? did we lose plyrs as a result of this inefficiency? yes. we even buried gautier in the minors and paid a 2nd rndr to do him a solid. even if it's a given that you're only paying mkt price for dmen you don't draft, prices seem to be going up...the value of the position has never been greater.

now imagine if we drafted and developed maybe 2 of our own instead of these guys. how many more assets could have been at our disposal? how much more cap space might we have had at critical junctures? see, it does matter how you obtain players. it has to be a mix of draft trade and FA. if you don't have enuf ELCs going at any given time, it's costly. and let's not forget being forced to take a lead weight contract that takes you closer to the 50 limit while gaining little if any utility from the player. if nobody wants the plyr and your tight to the limit, you're less likely to take a shot at an ellerby or a y weber because you're maxed out. it's a given that this mgmt can't be perfected, but as i've clearly illustrated, it must be improved going forward...esp w/ some of the old options for burying bad deals now coming off the table. asset mgmt matters.
- isaiah520

The Flyers are a mix of trades, Free Agents and Draft picks. Every top team uses draft picks to trade for more established players. And as has been discussed many, many times. In a Cap environment, if you're going to have a top team with top players, there are going to be situations where you will have to eat some Cap space, or give a pick to make a deal, so you can better the team in another area. That is a fact of life.
I like to look at what has actually happened. None of the moves that you mentioned have stopped the Flyers from doing anything. Cap space has never stopped the Flyers from pursuing any player that they wanted to acquire. Evidence of that is this past off season, where the Flyers made huge Free Agent offers to Parise and Suter. They signed Weber to a humongous Offer Sheet with huge signing bonuses. The Flyers have also never lost out on a player that they wanted to acquire due to the 50 contract limit. That is the facts. And none of what you mentioned is a road block to acquiring an Ellerby or a Yannick Weber if they wanted to pursue those players.

We agree that the Flyers need to do a better job in drafting and developing defenseman. They have a very poor record in that regard. I'd love to see the Flyers draft a defenseman, develop him, and have him develop into a top player that patrols the Flyers blueline for a decade.
But where we don't agree, is in your insistence on that issue, permeating your critique of every move made by the team. Whether that is use of a draft pick, or a trade. Your not happy that they drafted Couturier, because you wanted them to draft Hamilton. Your not happy that the Flyers didn't get a young defenseman in the Carter and Richards trades. Your not happy that they drafted Laughton instead of Olli Maata. And even though the Flyers got a very good young defenseman in Luke Schenn, in the JVR deal. You're not happy with that because one, he's not the type of defenseman you wanted. And two, you undervalue Schenn's worth, so you don't think they got enough of a return.

I'm not going to overreact to the current situation. How many years previously, have the Flyers had a very good backline? So due to a number of factors, the past off season didn't work out as planned. So again, looking at the GM's track record. I have no reason to believe that he can't rectify that. And I'm willing to give him that chance before condemning him.

- Flyskippy

I'll have to keep that in mind for my dad for christmas. I've purposefully avoided being anywhere near a washroom with him for 20 years just so i don't have to hear "you know what they say about this place don't ya"? for the 876th time.

Sometimes I have A material.
- Flyskippy

Yes. Usually it's polyester.

Well, they selected 4 defensemen in the 2012 entry draft. One(Gostisbehere) was a solid contributor to the US WJC winning team. Another(Reece Willcox) is playing some very solid hockey at Cornell. They also traded for another (Mark Alt) who is a former 2nd rounder playing solid in the NCAA ranks.

They also nabbed a goalie, Anthony Stolarz, who has played very well since leaving his collegiate team to play in the CHL.
- Jsaquella

Flyers have drafted plenty of defenseman. Unfortunately, none of them have really worked out. Gustafsson is contributing, and Bourdon looked decent last year. They need some good fortune for some of these players to pan out.

You look around the League and see how many top NHL defenseman were drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round. So anyone can tell me that the teams that drafted them knew they were going to be that good, but they just waited to draft them? It's a crapshoot unless you're picking up real high. And even then it can be a misfire. In a lot of ways the Flyers have been real unfortunate to not have a number of players drafted at the defense position not pan out.

Flyers have drafted plenty of defenseman. Unfortunately, none of them have really worked out. Gustafsson is contributing, and Bourdon looked decent last year. They need some good fortune for some of these players to pan out.

You look around the League and see how many top NHL defenseman were drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round. So anyone can tell me that the teams that drafted them knew they were going to be that good, but they just waited to draft them? It's a crapshoot unless you're picking up real high. And even then it can be a misfire. In a lot of ways the Flyers have been real unfortunate to not have a number of players drafted at the defense position not pan out.
- MJL

The key is keeping or augmenting your picks to improve your chances. The Kubina deal still baffles me.

Flyers have drafted plenty of defenseman. Unfortunately, none of them have really worked out. Gustafsson is contributing, and Bourdon looked decent last year. They need some good fortune for some of these players to pan out.
- MJL

Still the most defensemen they've taken in a single draft since 2002. Now it falls on them to develop them.

That's the big issue. Bourdon is the first guy that they drafted and showed patience with.

The key is keeping or augmenting your picks to improve your chances. The Kubina deal still baffles me.
- jstross

They had gotten news that Meszaros was pretty much done for the year, Pronger wasn't returning and Bourdon had started to struggle with more ice time.

They felt they had a real shot at a Stanley Cup, so they traded for a veteran. Not really baffling. Just sucks that Kubina was half crippled himself when he came in.