It is very obvious when you read comments that people are making here, over social media, and twitter etc. People that seemed to have taken the time to educate themselves on the process and what has happened in the negotiations have no time for the players, their position of their heralded leader DeFuerher.

Conversely, people that have been blinded by the NHLPA PR campaign and simply blame Bettman and the NHL for this whole mess clearly haven't done their homework.

Neither side is blameless, but it is very clear as Richard points out that the only side that has even tried to negotiate has been the NHL.

That is the Agents job. To get the best deal they can for their clients. That is why they are hired! What do you not understand about contract negotiations and Free Agency? You want to paint the players as doing something wrong by getting the best deal they can for themselves. It still doesn't change the fact that Owners can also negotiate. And aren't forced, or coerced into anything. They willingly bid against one another in driving up the market for players. Which in turn sets the market for other players. That is simple reasoning.
- MJL

Wait so how it this a good thing when you use it to describe player/agent actions, but a bad thing when attributed to the owners?

They can say no. The Owners are without a doubt, the most responsible for the escalation of players salaries. And where did I say that a simple no would solve the entire problem?
- MJL

While i do not disagree fully it is still a precarious place the teams are in. They are in a 3 way bidding way. They need to bid high enough to look good to the players, and also higher than the other teams.

First of all, I'm not pro player. I'm pro for what I think is right.
- MJL

And only what YOU think is right, not what anyone else says.

It is very obvious when you read comments that people are making here, over social media, and twitter etc. People that seemed to have taken the time to educate themselves on the process and what has happened in the negotiations have no time for the players, their position of their heralded leader DeFuerher.

Conversely, people that have been blinded by the NHLPA PR campaign and simply blame Bettman and the NHL for this whole mess clearly haven't done their homework.

Neither side is blameless, but it is very clear as Richard points out that the only side that has even tried to negotiate has been the NHL.
- gstrandberg

I agree with your first point, but not with your last. I don't agree that the NHL has been the only side to negotiate. You can't say that when there has only been one side that has offered to give anything up to the other side. And that has been the PA.

Agreed. Now I can't say for certain that all of those methods will definitely work. But the basic premise of your point is absolutely correct in my opinion.
- MJL

I disagree. The NHLPA has not made any concessions as to how to stop the hemmoraging of money by teams. All teh want is to get more money now.

They want to save a season and not lose anymore money. Start by working off of the NHL proposals.

Wait so how it this a good thing when you use it to describe player/agent actions, but a bad thing when attributed to the owners?


- OilHorse

Yo got it backwards badly. I never stated that it is a bad thing for Owners to try and get the best deal they can. I'm basically saying that the Owners have done a ridiculously bad job in getting the best deals they can in individual contact negotiations with players. They've given out millions in contracts to players like it was candy on Halloween.

While i do not disagree fully it is still a precarious place the teams are in. They are in a 3 way bidding way. They need to bid high enough to look good to the players, and also higher than the other teams.


- OilHorse

It's a monster that they have created themselves.

And only what YOU think is right, not what anyone else says.
- OilHorse

Not true. I give my opinion. Simple as that. Let's talk about the issue, not each other. Not interested in that.

I agree with your first point, but not with your last. I don't agree that the NHL has been the only side to negotiate. You can't say that when there has only been one side that has offered to give anything up to the other side. And that has been the PA.
- MJL

The PA does not negotiate. They have stagnated the process by NOT giving anything but the same proposal worded slightly different over multiple ways.

there has been more proposals with more obvious movement coming from the league then the PA.

Neither side is blameless, but it is very clear as Richard points out that the only side that has even tried to negotiate has been the NHL.
- gstrandberg

i definitely agree with this (not sure if your post was pointed towards me or not)
The PA really hasn't done much and the NHL is finally calling them out on it


But I think the NHL stance of working off their proposal and their proposal only is wrong, mostly because its based on the same system that got us into this mess in the first place

The PA's thinking outside the box and although they havent negotiated at all, their proposals are worth a lot more consideration than the league has given them


As far as taking sides goes. Common sense--wise Im on the owners side. Who has the better deal for both sides? the PA

whose side am I on ?? the fans, I could care less what the deal is, just get it done

I disagree. The NHLPA has not made any concessions as to how to stop the hemmoraging of money by teams. All teh want is to get more money now.

They want to save a season and not lose anymore money. Start by working off of the NHL proposals.
- OilHorse

So agreeing in principle to moving towards 50/50 which could potentially be giving up over a Billion dollars isn't giving up any concessions to stop the hemorrhaging of money by teams?
You last statement is one of the biggest problems. Both you and the NHL want to PA to negotiate under your preconditions.
Tell the NHL to give the players some concession on the contact issues, and see how fast the HRR issue is settled.

Yo got it backwards badly. I never stated that it is a bad thing for Owners to try and get the best deal they can. I'm basically saying that the Owners have done a ridiculously bad job in getting the best deals they can in individual contact negotiations with players. They've given out millions in contracts to players like it was candy on Halloween.
- MJL

I don't have it backwards at all. Go back and look at what you said. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

The players/agents are supposed to get the best deal is what you said and said it with the intonation that this is a good thing, yet when you attribute it to the owners it is not a positive statement.

It's a monster that they have ALL created themselves.

fixed

Not true. I give my opinion. Simple as that. Let's talk about the issue, not each other. Not interested in that.

Then do not reply to others that are doing such. Otherwise you are just a hypocrite. We are all giving opinion. Many of us don't talk like it is fact.

The PA does not negotiate. They have stagnated the process by NOT giving anything but the same proposal worded slightly different over multiple ways.

there has been more proposals with more obvious movement coming from the league then the PA.
- OilHorse

The proposals from the NHL to the PA, haven't made any real movement. They've just offered to take less from the PA. The NHL has not offered to give anything to the players. The players are the only side that has offered to give anything to the other side. If you call stating "take our deal, give us everything we want, and when we do talk, do so under our preconditions" negotiating! Well then we have a difference of opinion on what negotiating is.

I agree with your first point, but not with your last. I don't agree that the NHL has been the only side to negotiate. You can't say that when there has only been one side that has offered to give anything up to the other side. And that has been the PA.
- MJL

Nothing has been given up by players... yet. The NHL has made offers that the players give up less and less, to the point where the latest offer of Make Whole guarenteed players full value of their contracts, plus interested, fully paid within 3 years. Thats not giving in, that`s a win for the players. Then Fehr counter offers with 62% of HRR based on revenues from last season to be paid this season. That's not negotiating, just serving the purpose of pissing people off.

So agreeing in principle to moving towards 50/50 which could potentially be giving up over a Billion dollars isn't giving up any concessions to stop the hemorrhaging of money by teams?
You last statement is one of the biggest problems. Both you and the NHL want to PA to negotiate under your preconditions.
Tell the NHL to give the players some concession on the contact issues, and see how fast the HRR issue is settled.
- MJL

Where are they giving up a billion dollars? 7% of 1.83 billion would take over 5 seasons to get to a billion and that is with 0% growth which, even if fans revolt is silly to expect.

Couldn't we easily say, get the NHLPA to accept the HRR issue and the NHL would give back on the contract issues? Fact of the matter is the NHLPA proposes concepts and almost all of them have them making more knowing full well if the salaries continue to rise that teams will fold and there will be less PA jobs. The PA needs to get serious and grow up. The slagging Bettman in on twitter is unbelievably pathetic, childish and typically unplayer like based on past disputes. This new era of players have their heads so far up their asses/in the clouds they have no concept of reality.

So agreeing in principle to moving towards 50/50 which could potentially be giving up over a Billion dollars isn't giving up any concessions to stop the hemorrhaging of money by teams? .
- MJL

Everyone knew that was gonna be the end point. There was no movement until this was agreed upon. That was not a concession, that was coming to reality.

You last statement is one of the biggest problems. Both you and the NHL want to PA to negotiate under your preconditions.
Tell the NHL to give the players some concession on the contact issues, and see how fast the HRR issue is settled.
- MJL

The problem with the players is that they act like they own the league. The biggest hurdle was cleared, agreement on 50/50. Now the league has forwarded a proposal and wish to work off that. Cannot give concessions when the PA wont work off of a single deal. This is a league that the players WORK in. Teh OWNERS make the base and then they work off of that.

Want concessions in regards to HHR and contract length? Here is what is proposed by the LEAGUE, use these parameters and tweak it to make it work. Not, whine and gripe about it then walk away or give a counter that is lightyears away.

The proposals from the NHL to the PA, haven't made any real movement. They've just offered to take less from the PA. The NHL has not offered to give anything to the players. The players are the only side that has offered to give anything to the other side. If you call stating "take our deal, give us everything we want, and when we do talk, do so under our preconditions" negotiating! Well then we have a difference of opinion on what negotiating is.
- MJL

What many people aren't taking into account here is that the NHL also wants to move back the age of free agency, limit the lenghts of contracts, make changes to entry level contracts etc. In other words, it all comes down to the players giving, and the owners taking. Im not taking sides here, but I just find it laughable that people suggest or imply that only one side is to blame for this mess any more than the other.

Nothing has been given up by players... yet. The NHL has made offers that the players give up less and less, to the point where the latest offer of Make Whole guarenteed players full value of their contracts, plus interested, fully paid within 3 years. Thats not giving in, that`s a win for the players. Then Fehr counter offers with 62% of HRR based on revenues from last season to be paid this season. That's not negotiating, just serving the purpose of pissing people off.
- gstrandberg

No the latest offer of make whole did not guarantee the players the full value of their contracts at all. That offer was based on a 5% growth rate. And then for contracts that go further then 2 years, relying on further growth rate. Those growth rates are not a guarantee. You have to understand why Fehr and the players responded with a deal that sees the players getting a raise in future years. That is in response to the League wanting to take all the contract rights away from the players. Basically saying the players are not going to take less, which they've agreed to in principle, if your not going to give us any concessions on the contract issues. Now I feel that the latest NHL Make Whole offer is a decent deal. I think it's close enough with a little tweaking to get a deal done in that area. But the players aren't going to move on that if the NHL won't move on contract issues. Real negotiating is give and take. And all the League wants to do is take from the players.

Where are they giving up a billion dollars? 7% of 1.83 billion would take over 5 seasons to get to a billion and that is with 0% growth which, even if fans revolt is silly to expect.

Couldn't we easily say, get the NHLPA to accept the HRR issue and the NHL would give back on the contract issues? Fact of the matter is the NHLPA proposes concepts and almost all of them have them making more knowing full well if the salaries continue to rise that teams will fold and there will be less PA jobs. The PA needs to get serious and grow up. The slagging Bettman in on twitter is unbelievably pathetic, childish and typically unplayer like based on past disputes. This new era of players have their heads so far up their asses/in the clouds they have no concept of reality.
- tboog6

According to the PA, they've been told by the NHL that they won't move on the contract issues. The NHL says that's not true. Come to the table and we'll negotiate that. The players are offering proposals that sees them get a raise, to use as leverage to get concessions in the contract rights area. Teams aren't going to fold. I could care less what's on Twitter. It's really irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
How confident are you that if the PA accepts the HHR issue, that the NHL will give back on contract issues? I'm not. Based on the NHL's behavior, they'll want to take the contract concessions away also. I believe that the NHL has to give the players some contract concessions to get a deal on HRR.

What many people aren't taking into account here is that the NHL also wants to move back the age of free agency, limit the lenghts of contracts, make changes to entry level contracts etc. In other words, it all comes down to the players giving, and the owners taking. Im not taking sides here, but I just find it laughable that people suggest or imply that only one side is to blame for this mess any more than the other.
- systemtool

The league has those in the proposal and says let us start here and negotiate.

This is base. Work up from here.

According to the PA, they've been told by the NHL that they won't move on the contract issues. The NHL says that's not true. Come to the table and we'll negotiate that. The players are offering proposals that sees them get a raise, to use as leverage to get concessions in the contract rights area. Teams aren't going to fold. I could care less what's on Twitter. It's really irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
How confident are you that if the PA accepts the HHR issue, that the NHL will give back on contract issues? I'm not. Based on the NHL's behavior, they'll want to take the contract concessions away also. I believe that the NHL has to give the players some contract concessions to get a deal on HRR.
- MJL

Im not sure either, point taken. Again, though you can say the PA's behaviour by presenting concepts rather than fully documented proposals and failing to take into account the structural problems many teams have financially is mind boggling. This behaviour leaves most to believe that they are responsible to make the next move and if they want to win back some good favour accepting the HRR would be an excellent start. Then the ball is in the NHL's court to take back some/most of the contractual demands. If they don't then the PA looks really good from a PR perspective.

So far, instead they call Gary names, whine about how hard done by they are and act like they are entitled to make business decisions in something they have no financial obligation in, they are only employees after all...

No the latest offer of make whole did not guarantee the players the full value of their contracts at all. That offer was based on a 5% growth rate. And then for contracts that go further then 2 years, relying on further growth rate. Those growth rates are not a guarantee. You have to understand why Fehr and the players responded with a deal that sees the players getting a raise in future years. That is in response to the League wanting to take all the contract rights away from the players. Basically saying the players are not going to take less, which they've agreed to in principle, if your not going to give us any concessions on the contract issues. Now I feel that the latest NHL Make Whole offer is a decent deal. I think it's close enough with a little tweaking to get a deal done in that area. But the players aren't going to move on that if the NHL won't move on contract issues. Real negotiating is give and take. And all the League wants to do is take from the players.
- MJL

The league has based the growth of revenues modestly and say that the Make Whole will be fully covered by year 3, so the league has to Make Whole for 2 years for then the revenue will have risen enough so that no side needs to pay Make Whole money.

So the players do not lose any money on their current contracts, which the players want. The revenue share goes to 50/50 which the league wants, and we all know is needed.

Everyone knew that was gonna be the end point. There was no movement until this was agreed upon. That was not a concession, that was coming to reality.


- OilHorse

That's ridiculous. Agreeing to go from 57% of revenue, down to 50% is certainly a concession. In fact it's a huge concession. Could be well over a Billion dollars.

The problem with the players is that they act like they own the league. The biggest hurdle was cleared, agreement on 50/50. Now the league has forwarded a proposal and wish to work off that. Cannot give concessions when the PA wont work off of a single deal. This is a league that the players WORK in. Teh OWNERS make the base and then they work off of that.


- OilHorse

The players don't act like they own the League. They act like a unified Union standing up for themselves. There hasn't been an agreement on how to get to 50/50. You cannot negotiate fairly by placing preconditions on the negotiations. This is a League that is nothing without the players. The players are far more then just employees.

Want concessions in regards to HHR and contract length? Here is what is proposed by the LEAGUE, use these parameters and tweak it to make it work. Not, whine and gripe about it then walk away or give a counter that is lightyears away.
- OilHorse

The players didn't give a counter that is light years away. The real difference between the players proposal and the Owners is about 33M. The League is using numbers based on a what they think the possibility of lost revenue is going to be for this Season and future years. The players want to negotiate on a hypothetical full Season. The League is using the mirage of using the estimated percentage of lost revenue, to artificially inflate the difference between the two sides. And make it look bigger then it really is. But they use a 5% growth rate to come up with Make Whole.

MJL...

Have you asked the NHLPA & specifically Mr Fehr why they didn't want to start negotiations last december when the NHL first approached them??

Then, would you please explain why the NHLPA didn't want to discuss the CBA topics until August when they made their first proposal??

Is that called wanting to get a deal done before the start of the season or that called stall tactics by the union in attempts to put pressure on the owners??

Guess what, the NHLPA will never win, there pressure tactics are lame & actually non-existent & if you think the owners are to blame here, you're so wrong!!

Fehr is famous for dragging things out & he couldn't give a rats ass about the NHL, the fans or anyone but himself but he's wrong about one thing - he won't break the owners & the NHL will get, for the most part, exactly what they're after.

Whether you want to agree or not, i could care less but i know that's exactly what's going to happen!!!

According to the PA, they've been told by the NHL that they won't move on the contract issues. The NHL says that's not true. Come to the table and we'll negotiate that. The players are offering proposals that sees them get a raise, to use as leverage to get concessions in the contract rights area. Teams aren't going to fold. I could care less what's on Twitter. It's really irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
How confident are you that if the PA accepts the HHR issue, that the NHL will give back on contract issues? I'm not. Based on the NHL's behavior, they'll want to take the contract concessions away also. I believe that the NHL has to give the players some contract concessions to get a deal on HRR.
- MJL

missing the forest for the trees.

It does not have to be HHR...maybe accept Free Agent 28/8 proposal and then push something to the owners you want. It is called negotiations. Don't accept the big issues, work on the small ones to get them done and out of the way. Build the trust in the room slowly then if one side wont budge they look unreasonable.

Im not sure either, point taken. Again, though you can say the PA's behaviour by presenting concepts rather than fully documented proposals and failing to take into account the structural problems many teams have financially is mind boggling. This behaviour leaves most to believe that they are responsible to make the next move and if they want to win back some good favour accepting the HRR would be an excellent start. Then the ball is in the NHL's court to take back some/most of the contractual demands. If they don't then the PA looks really good from a PR perspective.

So far, instead they call Gary names, whine about how hard done by they are and act like they are entitled to make business decisions in something they have no financial obligation in, they are only employees after all...
- tboog6

I don't disagree that showing good faith and saying look, okay we'll step up and make a concession, would be a good move. To get some movement going. It could jump start a deal. But I don't beleive that Fehr and the PA trust the NHL to return that good faith. I think that's the whole problem. There is a huge distrust there. And both sides have contributed to that.

And the bottom line in the PA taking into account the teams financial issues. This negotiation is really about dividing revenue. And the NHL took in record revenue last Season. Not to mention that the PA has been adamant on increasing revenue sharing between teams. So they have been concerned about the overall financial picture of individual teams.

MJL...

Have you asked the NHLPA & specifically Mr Fehr why they didn't want to start negotiations last december when the NHL first approached them??

Then, would you please explain why the NHLPA didn't want to discuss the CBA topics until August when they made their first proposal??

Is that called wanting to get a deal done before the start of the season or that called stall tactics by the union in attempts to put pressure on the owners??

Guess what, the NHLPA will never win, there pressure tactics are lame & actually non-existent & if you think the owners are to blame here, you're so wrong!!

Fehr is famous for dragging things out & he couldn't give a rats ass about the NHL, the fans or anyone but himself but he's wrong about one thing - he won't break the owners & the NHL will get, for the most part, exactly what they're after.

Whether you want to agree or not, i could care less but i know that's exactly what's going to happen!!!
- newmy

newmy!

I have criticized the PA in the past for not coming to the table sooner. That is a legitimate criticism.

Fehr is famous for getting a good deal for his constituents.

Thank you

missing the forest for the trees.

It does not have to be HHR...maybe accept Free Agent 28/8 proposal and then push something to the owners you want. It is called negotiations. Don't accept the big issues, work on the small ones to get them done and out of the way. Build the trust in the room slowly then if one side wont budge they look unreasonable.
- OilHorse

You can make all those comments you want. I laugh at it. Now on to content.

Both sides have to build trust. It's clear that neither side trusts the other. That's a real problem. And both sides have contributed to it.