i don't know of any negotiation where the union receives a counter/proposal and simply says "nah, what else you got?" if the PA came in with something meaningful, and the owners then didn't budge off their core proposal, i'd be with you. but the players need to make concessions. they've admitted as much. and until they make a meaningful concession, i hold them more responsible for this mess. just my opinion though.
- scotch_tape

The PA did come in with something meaningful, and made concessions. They agreed to give up hundreds of millions in future player salary in their proposal. If you think they haven't then your not following very closely. Tell me what concessions the League has made? What compromise has the League made? All they've proposed is that the players cut their salaries. Honestly, ask yourself what has to happen here for a deal to get done? Both sides have to compromise to get a deal done. The NHLPA knows they are going to have to take some sort of salary cut to get a deal done. But they won't do so until the League agrees to do what the NHLPA thinks needs to happen to truly address the core financial issues. And that's the richer teams drastially increasing their help to the poorer market teams. That's where the real fight is. Between the haves and the have nots in the League. And until the League makes movement on that and compromises. Why should the players compromise further? When to this point they are the only side that has compromised. In the last CBA the players took a 24% rollback and agreed to a Cap. What happened 6 years later? And the players should accept the same again?

I think that this week will be the clarion point to the season. If they PA gives a decent proposal and they can get close to where it needs to be, then we'll see hockey in November. If the owners bock at the proposal and submit a counter proposal, that is too ridged on the PA, then the sides walk away. At this point, I feel the season will be over. Both sides will raise the black flag and try to destroy each other. I have a feeling that both sides are miscalculating the reaction of the fans. They may have gotten away with losing a season, 7 years ago, but that Mulligan has sailed and the fans won't come back so easy, this time. Sure, the Canadian fans will always come around, but they won't be so anxious to shell out big dollars, due to increased revenue sharing. Bettman and Fehr better know, that a couple of the Canadian franchises will be in trouble (Ottawa, Winnipeg). So they better get this done.
- PrinceLH

Don't kid yourself. Both the League and the NHLPA know that the fans are going no where. As soon as Hockey starts, they'll be right back as a whole. That's part of the issue. They don't fear backlash from the fans. Any talk of fans walking away is just emotions of the moment. When it starts back, true love of the game brings them right back. And all is forgotten.

The NHLPA with Fehr... their leader.... continue to give fans reasons to move their support to the nhl. The fact that they have made one proposal that used their own formula for HRR and contrary to what some might suggest was just as far "to the right" as the NHL's first proposa is plain dumb. The NHLPA as far as I am concerned is more "at fault" for where we sit today than the NHL.

The part that Baffles me..........

In 04/05 - The game had become stale, Holding, clutching n grabbing, neutral zone trap.. Player sallaries were very high.....The NHL decided that it NEEDED a salary cap in order to move forward to ensure their NHL teams would survive.....So both sides dug in deep, the NHLPA eventually broke and the owners get what they wanted.....A CAP and 24% Sallary rollback

Fast Forward to present day

The game has never been better, revenue is at an alltime high, the game is finally make waves in the South and there is even a Network deal worth 200M / season with NBC

Every day that goes by both sides do nothing but lose money.....They are fighting over money that neither will get back........they are killing the game and also damaging future revenues that allow them to make money.......

HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE???

it doesn't ......you would think that all these sharp business minds could see the bigger picture and realize that the sooner they make a deal the sooner they will all be making money again!

Gary Bettmans biggest mistake may just be thinking that because the fans "dealt" with a lost season last time and the game came back stronger, that it will happen the same way this time..........

When hockey came back in 05/06 we had the arrival of Sidney Crosby and Ovech. new rules and a shoot out.and a salary cap that would allow all teams to be competitive......there was reason to be excited.......this time......there is nothing

The part that Baffles me..........

In 04/05 - The game had become stale, Holding, clutching n grabbing, neutral zone trap.. Player sallaries were very high.....The NHL decided that it NEEDED a salary cap in order to move forward to ensure their NHL teams would survive.....So both sides dug in deep, the NHLPA eventually broke and the owners get what they wanted.....A CAP and 24% Sallary rollback

Fast Forward to present day

The game has never been better, revenue is at an alltime high, the game is finally make waves in the South and there is even a Network deal worth 200M / season with NBC

Every day that goes by both sides do nothing but lose money.....They are fighting over money that neither will get back........they are killing the game and also damaging future revenues that allow them to make money.......

HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE???

it doesn't ......you would think that all these sharp business minds could see the bigger picture and realize that the sooner they make a deal the sooner they will all be making money again!

Gary Bettmans biggest mistake may just be thinking that because the fans "dealt" with a lost season last time and the game came back stronger, that it will happen the same way this time..........

When hockey came back in 05/06 we had the arrival of Sidney Crosby and Ovech. new rules and a shoot out.and a salary cap that would allow all teams to be competitive......there was reason to be excited.......this time......there is nothing
- billyberg10

How damaging do you really think a lockout is to future revenues? What happened to revenues since the last lockout? These two sides know what they're doing, and they know fan frustration isn't a significant concern. It's worth it to them to sacrifice short term revenue for a better long term situation.

How damaging do you really think a lockout is to future revenues? What happened to revenues since the last lockout? These two sides know what they're doing, and they know fan frustration isn't a significant concern. It's worth it to them to sacrifice short term revenue for a better long term situation.
- BulliesPhan87

Well.... start with a lost season....there is 3.3 B loss right there.......plus add in another year or 2 to rebuild the fans trust and come back to support the game they love....do you really think that revenue is going to continue to grow @7% after this fiasco??
..............................not a chance

in other news the NHLPA thinks they are putting their offer up, right on schedule.
- Fountain-San

Pretty much.

The part that Baffles me..........

In 04/05 - The game had become stale, Holding, clutching n grabbing, neutral zone trap.. Player sallaries were very high.....The NHL decided that it NEEDED a salary cap in order to move forward to ensure their NHL teams would survive.....So both sides dug in deep, the NHLPA eventually broke and the owners get what they wanted.....A CAP and 24% Sallary rollback

Fast Forward to present day

The game has never been better, revenue is at an alltime high, the game is finally make waves in the South and there is even a Network deal worth 200M / season with NBC

Every day that goes by both sides do nothing but lose money.....They are fighting over money that neither will get back........they are killing the game and also damaging future revenues that allow them to make money.......

HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE???

it doesn't ......you would think that all these sharp business minds could see the bigger picture and realize that the sooner they make a deal the sooner they will all be making money again!

Gary Bettmans biggest mistake may just be thinking that because the fans "dealt" with a lost season last time and the game came back stronger, that it will happen the same way this time..........

When hockey came back in 05/06 we had the arrival of Sidney Crosby and Ovech. new rules and a shoot out.and a salary cap that would allow all teams to be competitive......there was reason to be excited.......this time......there is nothing
- billyberg10

Im starting to like the NFL more then ever.
the longer this lockout lasts the more cash both side lose.
Face it most fans dont care anymore.. they are both to blame NHL and the NHLPA..

The PA did come in with something meaningful, and made concessions. They agreed to give up hundreds of millions in future player salary in their proposal. If you think they haven't then your not following very closely. Tell me what concessions the League has made? What compromise has the League made? All they've proposed is that the players cut their salaries. Honestly, ask yourself what has to happen here for a deal to get done? Both sides have to compromise to get a deal done. The NHLPA knows they are going to have to take some sort of salary cut to get a deal done. But they won't do so until the League agrees to do what the NHLPA thinks needs to happen to truly address the core financial issues. And that's the richer teams drastially increasing their help to the poorer market teams. That's where the real fight is. Between the haves and the have nots in the League. And until the League makes movement on that and compromises. Why should the players compromise further? When to this point they are the only side that has compromised. In the last CBA the players took a 24% rollback and agreed to a Cap. What happened 6 years later? And the players should accept the same again?
- MJL

I look at it a little differently. I do not believe the players have made concessions from the original talks. What you are referring to is there intial proposal's diifference from the previous CBA. That CBA (at 57%) for the players has expired. It is completely irrelevant at this point. So, I do not believe that you can make a concession from something that does not exist. They simply need to accept a lower % of revenues towards players salaries. It just cant be anywhere near that high because at the end of the day there simply isnt any money left for most teams to show a profit. As for your last line, Yes, the players can and should accept the same to some extent. The recently expired CBA was absolutely amazing for them as a whole. That is why they say they will continue playing under it. Last time they sacrificed a whole year to end up with a CBA that turned out to be great for them. How are they so blind that they cant see that the same exact thing will happen for them again. If they give what is needed to get this settled and not lose any more time, I gaurantee the players will make out like bandits again and love the CBA again. They will see money money money.

Side note- Having said all of that, I do believe that the current contracts should be grandfathered in somehow. Both sides agreed to them and signed them and they should be honored. This is a part where I agree with the players.

Well.... start with a lost season....there is 3.3 B loss right there.......plus add in another year or 2 to rebuild the fans trust and come back to support the game they love....do you really think that revenue is going to continue to grow @7% after this fiasco??
..............................not a chance
- billyberg10

This was a popular tune eight years ago, I imagine. They know we'll be back, we came back last time. There's no concern about rebuilding trust, as long as our favorite teams take the ice we'll all tune in. You say they can't see the bigger picture, and I contend the contrary is true: Both sides know the stakes, both short and long term, and they know they can afford to risk this entire season at the bargaining table.

Now, if you're contending that the lockouts will assure the league remains fourth behind the NBA, MLB, and NFL, I'd be inclined to agree. But NHL hockey will be back, and so will the fans.

Smart of the players to lose a seasons pay + a rollback instead of just taking the rollback now... That'll show em!!!

Well.... start with a lost season....there is 3.3 B loss right there.......plus add in another year or 2 to rebuild the fans trust and come back to support the game they love....do you really think that revenue is going to continue to grow @7% after this fiasco??
..............................not a chance
- billyberg10

Agreed... and from the players perspective taking a loss of an entire year of salary for the sake of what? The players want us to believe that they would be willing to do so for the sake of the players coming up in the future. I call bull. Do you really believe that guys like Iggy, Doan who may have 4 good years left are willing to lose upwards of 7 million dollars ... at the least 25% of what they will make over the next 4 years for the up and comers... I doubt it.

The NHLPA's reluctance to put another offer on the table is tied to past experience where they feel the NHL has "taken a mile whenever we gave an inch." The most famous being the salary reduction concession last time around...The offer was made as an alternative to a salary cap and ended up being include with a cap.

Yeah, offering up 24% rollbacks without consulting the rank-and-file and without thinking about the consequences of how that might be received tends to end up badly. On the other hand, foot-dragging for the sake of foot-dragging and trying to pump up your self-worth tends not to turn out very well, either.

My son started IP hockey this year, first year and I'm lucky enough to be one of the coaches for his group of kids. I tell ya, my first year coaching with these little squirts, we've only had 2 ice times so far (just started last week) but they have been hands down the best ice times I've ever had in my entire life. Of all the games I've played in my life, from organized hockey to pick up on the pond, to ball hockey tournies with my best friends and family, I've never ever in my life enjoyed being on the ice as much as I do with these kids. Watching some of these kids learn how to stand on skates, and others learn their cross-overs etc, and seeing the smile on their faces...kinda makes me wish these players/owners could come out and watch the kids faces light up as they skate on the ice for their first time, and just remember why we love this game and what it's really all about.

I'm a die hard hockey fan like any other Canadian, but my eyes are open now and I don't need to pay for their "entertainment" anymore. I appreciate this lock out because it's helped me realize that my devotion to hockey is much better utilized locally, than to be devoted to men who don't appreciate it.

Go to your local rinks, of course it's not the same calibre lol, but at least the shirts on the ice are playing for the game, and not the politics behind it

The PA did come in with something meaningful, and made concessions. They agreed to give up hundreds of millions in future player salary in their proposal. If you think they haven't then your not following very closely. Tell me what concessions the League has made? What compromise has the League made? All they've proposed is that the players cut their salaries. Honestly, ask yourself what has to happen here for a deal to get done? Both sides have to compromise to get a deal done. The NHLPA knows they are going to have to take some sort of salary cut to get a deal done. But they won't do so until the League agrees to do what the NHLPA thinks needs to happen to truly address the core financial issues. And that's the richer teams drastially increasing their help to the poorer market teams. That's where the real fight is. Between the haves and the have nots in the League. And until the League makes movement on that and compromises. Why should the players compromise further? When to this point they are the only side that has compromised. In the last CBA the players took a 24% rollback and agreed to a Cap. What happened 6 years later? And the players should accept the same again?
- MJL

they made hypothetical concessions, based on revenues continuing to grow at the same rate. they know very well the owners are looking for some kind of immediate savings.

i don't think the players should bend over. i would just like to see where negotiations go if the players offer anything of substance that the owners are looking for.

Well.... start with a lost season....there is 3.3 B loss right there.......plus add in another year or 2 to rebuild the fans trust and come back to support the game they love....do you really think that revenue is going to continue to grow @7% after this fiasco??
..............................not a chance
- billyberg10

Point: if the season is lost, the owners are not losing all $3.3B. They're losing a decent chink of money, yes - but some revenue will still be generated [merchandise, some ad/broadcast revenues depending on how contracts are structured, etc.]

That said, can I see revenues grow 7% between the 1st and 2nd years of the next CBA? Absolutely. Can I see them grow 7% per year after that? That may be the $64,000 question. The better one to ask is "how much revenue is generated in Year 1 once play starts again?" That's where everything else is going to be based off of; set that low enough, and 7% growth [or more] isn't far-fetched in the short-term.

Of course the NHL responded immediately to previous NHLPA offers. Saying "No" without any analysis and consideration of the offer but rather just to say "No" can be done within seconds of receiving the offer.

The NHL's answer each time was predertermined to be "No" unless the NHLPA bent over and accepted their initial demands to the letter.

What no one on the NHL side - including Bettmen - has bothered asking themself is: What do I want my NHL legacy to be, a builder or destroyer of the world's best sport?

The NHLPA with Fehr... their leader.... continue to give fans reasons to move their support to the nhl. The fact that they have made one proposal that used their own formula for HRR and contrary to what some might suggest was just as far "to the right" as the NHL's first proposa is plain dumb. The NHLPA as far as I am concerned is more "at fault" for where we sit today than the NHL.
- TSTER

The players proposal wasn't using their own formula for HRR. It was using the same formula that was in the last CBA.

Who Cares. The NBA starts in 3 weeks.

I say, let the NHL give the NHPLA what it wants.

Then the owners can decide just how much revenue sharing they really are willing to do. Draw the line in the sand and the remaining owners buy out the teams that don't make the cut. In other words, contract the league by 2 to 5 teams. Hold a dispersal draft. Definitely a cold solution and, due to bankruptcy laws, probably impossible. But it would be nice to see a "union" eliminate 50 to 125 jobs because they priced their labor out of the market. Can anyone say US Steel Industry?

I look at it a little differently. I do not believe the players have made concessions from the original talks. What you are referring to is there intial proposal's diifference from the previous CBA. That CBA (at 57%) for the players has expired. It is completely irrelevant at this point. So, I do not believe that you can make a concession from something that does not exist. They simply need to accept a lower % of revenues towards players salaries. It just cant be anywhere near that high because at the end of the day there simply isnt any money left for most teams to show a profit. As for your last line, Yes, the players can and should accept the same to some extent. The recently expired CBA was absolutely amazing for them as a whole. That is why they say they will continue playing under it. Last time they sacrificed a whole year to end up with a CBA that turned out to be great for them. How are they so blind that they cant see that the same exact thing will happen for them again. If they give what is needed to get this settled and not lose any more time, I gaurantee the players will make out like bandits again and love the CBA again. They will see money money money.


- Donnie27J

Your all over the map, and really lack an understanding if the facts. Yes the old CBA doesn't exist anymore. But what does exist is the revenue generated in the League, the current players salaries, and the current percentage that the players are paid. So that all does still exist.
Accepting another large rollback of salaries, is not accepting the same. Honestly what are you talking about? Would the players still be well paid if they accept the League's requested rollback? Absolutely. But your missing what this is really about.

Side note- Having said all of that, I do believe that the current contracts should be grandfathered in somehow. Both sides agreed to them and signed them and they should be honored. This is a part where I agree with the players.
- Donnie27J

Again, your all over the map, and contradicting yourself. You state in one paragraph that the players should accept the same rollbacks that they did in the last CBA, because it worked out great for them. Then your saying that current contracts should be grandfathered in somehow. So which is it? You can't rollback salaries and accept the same as the last time, while grandfathering in current deals.

they made hypothetical concessions, based on revenues continuing to grow at the same rate. they know very well the owners are looking for some kind of immediate savings.

i don't think the players should bend over. i would just like to see where negotiations go if the players offer anything of substance that the owners are looking for.
- scotch_tape

Not really. The players agreed to lower the percentage of salary they get. Those conessions are very real, and would add up to a lot of money. How much exactly is the hypothetical part. But the savings for the Owners would be very real. The NHLPA is counting on historical growth of about 7% a year, so even though they'd be taken a lower percentage, current salaries would be relatively the same. And your correct, the League is looking for immediate cutbacks of current salary levels. And I beleive the NHLPA is willing to give more. But not until the League does it part in house with helping struggling teams. It has to be a compromise. And the NHLPA is the only side that has compromised to this point. All the League has done is move off of their artificially created base of their original offer, which wasn't negotiating in good faith from jump street.

Who Cares. The NBA starts in 3 weeks.
- Leafsfan9329

Oh great...
I'll tune in for the final two minutes of the games to see what happens...
Such a thrilling sport

they made hypothetical concessions, based on revenues continuing to grow at the same rate. they know very well the owners are looking for some kind of immediate savings.

i don't think the players should bend over. i would just like to see where negotiations go if the players offer anything of substance that the owners are looking for.
- scotch_tape

But those are real concessions that would lower the player share. They also provide the basis for negotiations -- how to structure a system that gets to a lower number without the players taking a big reduction in actual salary dollars in year one.

To dismiss it because it doesn't give the owners everything -- a better revenue split AND immediate savings -- is short sighted.

But those are real concessions that would lower the player share. They also provide the basis for negotiations -- how to structure a system that gets to a lower number without the players taking a big reduction in actual salary dollars in year one.

To dismiss it because it doesn't give the owners everything -- a better revenue split AND immediate savings -- is short sighted.
- Canada Cup

Agreed.

Some are losing site that this is a negotiation. And both sides have to give. Only one side is really giving anything at this point. The players.