Ryan Wilson: Goalie winzzz Goalie winzzz

Can't wait to see the responses to this one

Can't wait to see the responses to this one
- Feds91Stammer

Just read Peng's blog on this very site, it's the same thing, at least the majority of it (sans Murray).

I think that MAF has been a good goalie for the bulk of his career, and should be in the Penguins Hall of Fame, but not the HHOF.

When do people see Murray coming back?

I guess it is fair to evaluate goalies completely apart from the teams, defenses, and systems in front of them.

As far as I am concerned, this is one of the most important factors in considering a goalie's career numbers. For example, how would Fleury's numbers look if he had played behind the defenses/systems that Brodeur played behind? How would Brodeur's numbers look if he had played behind the high-risk offensive-oriented systems of the Pens? It isn't just the total number of shots faced but also the quality of shots. With many of those NJ defenses it was possible to get low-percentage shots from the points all day but just about impossible to get good, closer shots (much less breakaways). Because it is so difficult to evaluate quality of chances for one game much less an entire career total wins should have some importance in evaluating a goalie.

It is interesting that MAF currently has the second best save percentage in the league, now that he is playing behind a much more defensively-responsible team and system. Imagine what his career numbers would have been if he had played behind such a team his whole career. If he can stick it out another three or four years in the league he could easily build up his career sv % to the point where this is no longer a debate.

This has parallels to the Lemieux vs. Gretsky debate. How would Gretsky's career numbers look if he had played on some of those bad Pens teams of the 80's? How would Lemieux's look if he had played on some of those basically all-star Oilers teams of the 80's? You just have to consider their teams and team systems as a factor in trying to evaluate them. It is even more important with goalies.

When do people see Murray coming back?
- david22

My guess is that he will be back for the game next Tuesday against the Islanders. That is the next game after the one tomorrow.

I guess it is fair to evaluate goalies completely apart from the teams, defenses, and systems in front of them.

As far as I am concerned, this is one of the most important factors in considering a goalie's career numbers. For example, how would Fleury's numbers look if he had played behind the defenses/systems that Brodeur played behind? How would Brodeur's numbers look if he had played behind the high-risk offensive-oriented systems of the Pens? It isn't just the total number of shots faced but also the quality of shots. With many of those NJ defenses it was possible to get low-percentage shots from the points all day but just about impossible to get good, closer shots (much less breakaways). Because it is so difficult to evaluate quality of chances for one game much less an entire career total wins should have some importance in evaluating a goalie.

It is interesting that MAF currently has the second best save percentage in the league, now that he is playing behind a much more defensively-responsible team and system. Imagine what his career numbers would have been if he had played behind such a team his whole career. If he can stick it out another three or four years in the league he could easily build up his career sv % to the point where this is no longer a debate.

This has parallels to the Lemieux vs. Gretsky debate. How would Gretsky's career numbers look if he had played on some of those bad Pens teams of the 80's? How would Lemieux's look if he had played on some of those basically all-star Oilers teams of the 80's? You just have to consider their teams and team systems as a factor in trying to evaluate them. It is even more important with goalies.
- PghPens668771

that sure is a lot of "what ifs"

I'd say that Fleury had a pretty big hand in converting what would have been ties into shootout wins.

Wins do matter, and they do reflect on the goalie. What's more important, not giving up the third goal in a 2-1 loss or holding the fort behind a questionable defense to secure a 5-4 win?

that sure is a lot of "what ifs"
- Mordecai

It's not what-ifs, it's a question of how a team's style influences a goalie's stats. Playing with Crosby and Malkin and Letang might be great for wins, but not for GAA or SV%, especially back in the Bylsma era.

Wins are presented with a caveat but GAA/SV% is just put out there as stats without context.

The "what ifs" aren't to manufacture Fleury's HOF worthy career. They're to counter all of the "what ifs" made by RW and Sheng in attempt to delegitimize Fleury's HOF worthy career. I think the truth is somewhere in between. RW's comments aren't wrong, but he's using hand selected advanced metrics to frame his argument. Fleury has had tremendous goal support. However the quality of chances he's faced has to be near the top of the list and that's not mentioned. The hand in shootout wins for or against the argument is another factor. There's so many variables in play, so I say leave it to the simple facts. 400 wins and counting and 3 cups and possibly more. He's on the verge of HOF contention and if he stays one of the top 10 goaltenders in the league for a few more seasons, possibly with another cup, I think he's worthy.

What's this Susan Sarandon poop? We gotta listen to PM tell her what a hand pass is too?

The "what ifs" aren't to manufacture Fleury's HOF worthy career. They're to counter all of the "what ifs" made by RW and Sheng in attempt to delegitimize Fleury's HOF worthy career. I think the truth is somewhere in between. RW's comments aren't wrong, but he's using hand selected advanced metrics to frame his argument. Fleury has had tremendous goal support. However the quality of chances he's faced has to be near the top of the list and that's not mentioned. The hand in shootout wins for or against the argument is another factor. There's so many variables in play, so I say leave it to the simple facts. 400 wins and counting and 3 cups and possibly more. He's on the verge of HOF contention and if he stays one of the top 10 goaltenders in the league for a few more seasons, possibly with another cup, I think he's worthy.
- Le_Magnifique

Well, it's also the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Stats. Peng's original article mentioned Barrasso. Barasso was a jerk, disliked by teammates and the media. Fleury is loved by teammates and the media. Sometimes it's that simple, similar to why Hines Ward will get into the HoF some day.

When do people see Murray coming back?
- david22

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It's very feasible that Fleury gets to 500 wins. Regardless of whether or not he does, he probably ends up in the top 5 of all time wins category. He already has 3 cups. I'm all for advanced stats but not when judging the hard numbers of a player's career and how it affects their chances at the HOF. In the same way you'll never convince anyone outside of Pittsburgh that Lemieux is better than Gretzky, you'll never convince anyone that a goaltender with 500(+/-) wins and 3(+) cups doesn't belong in the HOF.

I’m not sure if the discussion is if fleury should be in the hall of fame if he retired today or if he will be when he actually retires???

He’s 33 now and say he plays minimum 5 more years at a seemingly low 25 wins a year that leaves him at 525 wins total... he has 63 playoff wins so give him 12 more to total 75 playoff wins (top 7 all time) and 3 cups.... that’s very hard to say no to the hall of fame. Is he literally the only goalie other then osgood to play on a good team????? Why aren’t they on pace for over 525 career wins!? I don’t think osgood deserves to be in but I think it’s close. The reason I say fleury should be in and osgood not in, is, well.... 125 extra wins is A LOT! I’d say at those extended numbers he definitely gets in.

MAF is probably good enough to be an HOF'r. I doubt he gets in because most of the credit will go to Sid and Geno. Wins won't be enough to erase the stain of the "Dan Bylsma no defense" era.

What's this Susan Sarandon poop? We gotta listen to PM tell her what a hand pass is too?
- Thorny87

This will be a nightmare. Just like last week. Did NBC actually think that was good television?

I agree on wins. They’re a team stat that doesn’t hugely reflect on the goalie unless the team in front of them is truly putrid.

However, I do think there’s something to be said for Fleury’s longevity in regards to HHoF consideration. In this age, how many goalies last as long as he does? Most guys are only a couple season hit wonders with maybe a year or two of resurgence after their three or so year hot streak. Flower has done pretty much the opposite of that, being consistently starter level with a couple of down ears sprinkled here and there. Not sure that qualifies him for the HHoF, but I think that puts him above the Jaro Halaks of the world.

Impossible to subjectively comparé players in different teams different eras in my opinion.

Wouldn't vezina voting be 'a' sign of a goalies value? It is after all supposed to be the 'best' goalie award??

So how many nominations are there on the list in the blog? Who has the most vezina trophies/nominations?

Interesting thread from Sean here.

Interesting thread from Sean here.
- j.boyd919

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Using statistics alone for hof consideration is ludicrous. The hof is for nostalgia. Personality, championships, off the ice stuff all factors in. And should. Statistics are already taking some of the fundamentally best parts of the game out of hockey... it’s gotta get its fingers in the Hall too?

Interesting thread from Sean here.
- j.boyd919

I’m shocked at how high the 4C average is. If my full time 4C had 19 points at this point in the season I’d be over the moon.

Also, what a turn around Hagelin has had.

I’m shocked at how high the 4C average is. If my full time 4C had 19 points at this point in the season I’d be over the moon.

Also, what a turn around Hagelin has had.
- Victoro311

I can't help but attribute a nice chunk of the Penguins return to form to Hags significant improvement.

I've never even heard of half the Rangers defense. And no Lundqvist. Better win tonight.