Bill Meltzer: Quick Hits: Umberger, Prospects, Charity Classic

Good luck RJ!

I'm assuming that Frost must also be signed by 6/1/19 as well? He's not on your list.

Good luck RJ!

I'm assuming that Frost must also be signed by 6/1/19 as well? He's not on your list.
- BiggE

Yes. I excluded Patrick and Frost because i expect both to be signed to ELCs by October. Frost contract will slide to the OHL.

Yes. I excluded Patrick and Frost because i expect both to be signed to ELCs by October. Frost contract will slide to the OHL.
- bmeltzer

Yeah, that's kind of what I figured.

On another topic, barring trades, the Flyers seem to have 16 forwards with a legit spot to make the club and only 14 spots available. Who do you see as the 2 that get left out? My guess is that it will be Vecchione and Leier. Vecchione because he's waiver exempt, has only 2 games of total pro experience and doesn't seem to fit the the 4th line/PKer mold and Leier mainly because I don't see him beating any of the others out and I don't think there is much risk of losing him on waivers.

Still laugh at people who think Umberger for hartnell deal is bad. Look at how strapped we still are for cap space. We would be in serious trouble if we still had Hartnell

You are wrong.

Edit: This is in response to the above quote, dang quotes not working!

Sure RJ is a good guy and I am rooting for him. I never called him bad names but certainly was dissapointed he was injured. As an asset management decision, I hated the trade then and still today. IMHO Hartnell was worth more then a salary dump player that was known to be injured (Hexy admitted he knew he was injured!!!). I'm not sentimental about Hartnell because he was a fan favorite, it is strictly from an asset management perspective that I did and do disagree with that trade.

BTW: We also got a fourth which was flipped to LA for the 104th pick in 2015 (Vorobyov) and a 6th rounder in 2016 (Anthony Salinitri). If Vorobyov becomes a legit player it could actually be a good trade in hindsight....but that is hindsight. The original trade was downright awful.

I met RJ briefly during his Ohio State days when he ran a hockey clinic at his hometown rink. He made a good enough impression that I always rooted for him, even while he was a Flyer.
One way or the other, he is certainly nearing the end of professional playing days. I still wish him well and hope he can have a good final season or two.

Still laugh at people who think Umberger for hartnell deal is bad. Look at how strapped we still are for cap space. We would be in serious trouble if we still had Hartnell
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

Trade was a net positive for other reasons, but we aren't strapped for cap space. And we took on Umby's contract for 2 years to even it out in money before buying him out. And we just took Flip for 5 mil, Lehtera for 4+, signed Weise to 2.3, signed Weal to 1.7. And we still have plenty of space without even trading someone like Read.

Still laugh at people who think Umberger for hartnell deal is bad. Look at how strapped we still are for cap space. We would be in serious trouble if we still had Hartnell
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

We probably don't take on more bad deals if we kept Hartnell. Weise, Filppula, Lehtera.

Still laugh at people who think Umberger for hartnell deal is bad. Look at how strapped we still are for cap space. We would be in serious trouble if we still had Hartnell
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

I disagree. A bunch of moves have been made since that took on significant cap hits. Hextall hasn't been worried about that. Also, RJ's contract was almost the same cap hit as Hartsy, just one year less on the deal. No big deal there. Finally "If we still had Hartnell...." he'd only be making a million dollars this year.

If the Flyers didn't make that deal they'd likely have spent the same amount of money, had the same amount of playoff appearances and won the same amount of cups. The only thing that deal did was take a guy everyone liked (except Hakstol) out of Philly.

Trade was a net positive for other reasons, but we aren't strapped for cap space. And we took on Umby's contract for 2 years to even it out in money before buying him out. And we just took Flip for 5 mil, Lehtera for 4+, signed Weise to 2.3, signed Weal to 1.7. And we still have plenty of space.
- Mononoke

Hextall has a done a very good job managing the Flyers cap situation and in rebuilding the prospect pool. It will be interesting to see if, over the next few seasons, he's able to build on that and turn the team into a legit Cup contender.

I think he can.

Hextall has a done a very good job managing the Flyers cap situation and in rebuilding the prospect pool. It will be interesting to see if, over the next few seasons, he's able to build on that and turn the team into a legit Cup contender.

I think he can.
- BiggE

Take your optimism and shove it up your ass.

Take your optimism and shove it up your ass.
- Mononoke

Take your optimism and shove it up your ass.
- Mononoke

Wow, who peed in your cornflakes this morning?

Wow, who peed in your cornflakes this morning?
- BiggE

me

Wow, who peed in your cornflakes this morning?
- BiggE

It was Mordecai.

But then Holmgren took a poop on my Eggos. He explained he mixed up my address with PLind's afterwards and apologized, but I was not having it.

It was Mordecai.

But then Holmgren took a poop on my Eggos. He explained he mixed up my address with PLind's afterwards and apologized, but I was not having it.
- Mononoke

Still laugh at people who think Umberger for hartnell deal is bad. Look at how strapped we still are for cap space. We would be in serious trouble if we still had Hartnell
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

Still laugh at people who think it wasn't a bad deal. The only positive is it was off the books quicker. However, Hartnell was by far more productive. In the two years of Umberger before the buyout, Hartnell had 51 goals and 109 points, Umberger 11 goals and 26 points. But he played a structured game so points don't matter.

I have nothing against R.J. Umberger in this regard: Professional sports is a tough business. Your body accumulates hard miles and you are lucky if you are still playing in the four major sports into your 30s.

Players will always try to play. Always. They don't get to the highest leagues by being quitters, by thinking that the next game won't be better than the last one.

Sometimes, it's up to the teams and coaches to take the ball away from the player -- it isn't always easy or pleasant. But sometimes, because it is professional sports, you have to stop putting players in a position to fail.

I didn't think Chief was a bad coach for the Flyers. Others might disagree.

But I strongly disagreed with the position he put Umberger in -- Umberger might resurrect his career in Dallas. I don't know. But I know that he was clearly and largely ineffective as a Flyer, and the coach and management did him no favors in running him out there that second season for 60-plus games where he contributed little-to-nothing, then shutting him down and explaining that the player was hurt.

I mean, come on. That was ridiculous then, and it's ridiculous now. Sometimes, you have to take the ball away from a player. That didn't happen with Umberger, and it's unfortunate, because it does unfairly color how some view his tenure with the Flyers

Still laugh at people who think it wasn't a bad deal. The only positive is it was off the books quicker. However, Hartnell was by far more productive. In the two years of Umberger before the buyout, Hartnell had 51 goals and 109 points, Umberger 11 goals and 26 points. But he played a structured game so points don't matter.
- FlyerFan16

It was a bad deal. No way to sugarcoat that. But at the same time, for whatever reason, they just didn't want Hartnell here anymore. They just didn't, so we just have to swallow that one

It was a bad deal. No way to sugarcoat that. But at the same time, for whatever reason, they just didn't want Hartnell here anymore. They just didn't, so we just have to swallow that one
- AllInForFlyers

Agreed. I know there was a salary dump component to the trade, but I think, at the end of the day, it seems like the org felt Hartnell's negatives (skating, penchant for bad penalties, etc) outweighed the positives.

it seems like the org felt Hartnell's negatives (skating, penchant for bad penalties, etc) outweighed the positives
- johndewar

Not that I'd trade all the chaos theory stuff that transpired in the last 3 years and it was all for the long-term best, but in his last year here, he was 2nd on the team in Goals For %, 2nd in CF%, 3rd best 5v5 scorer. In his 3 years in CB, he was the best 5v5 scorer on the team and averaged over 50 points, 3rd best in GF% and CF%. Give me a bad skater who produces any day.

I don't know what negatives exist to outweigh those positives, but I did not convert those numbers through the Intangibles Machine haha. Funny thing is the Flyers in the years since have been a painfully slow team in play style and seem to be set up to play that way.

Not that I'd trade all the chaos theory stuff that transpired in the last 3 years, but in his last year here, he was 2nd on the team in Goals For %, 2nd in CF%, 3rd best 5v5 scorer. In his 3 years in CB, he was the best 5v5 scorer on the team and averaged over 50 points, 3rd best in GF% and CF%. Give me a bad skater who produces any day. Funny thing is the Flyers all these years have been a painfully slow team in play style.

I don't know what negatives exist to outweigh that performance, but I did not convert those numbers through the Intangibles Machine.
- Mononoke

They were already trending the wrong way at ES with him, and he was clearly underrated in that regard. Giroux hasn't looked the same at ES since, really -- we can all argue details, but to me, some of Giroux's woes at ES aren't helped by the fact that trading guys who get it done at ES and not adequately replacing them is net negative

Agreed. I know there was a salary dump component to the trade, but I think, at the end of the day, it seems like the org felt Hartnell's negatives (skating, penchant for bad penalties, etc) outweighed the positives.
- johndewar

I mean, honestly, what else is there? We all understand how it works: Sometimes, managers/coaches prefers some guys, wants to move on from others. In this case, some might prefer the cap advantages gained in total, some might have preferred the production.

I preferred the production, but I can also admit that it's not always that simple -- I'm not around these guys every day, and we all know that working with people day in, day out isn't the same as looking at a workplace from the outside

I agree. Hextall has figured out that he can't evaluate talent which is he hasn't made a real trade that wasn't just for more picks or prospects since the Hartnell deal. I think he really thought it was a good trade and was shocked at how bad R.J. was. Now he's just treading water hoping to get paid as long as he can before everyone realizes that he's clueless.