Ryan Wilson: Alex Ovechkin goes for career point 1,000 vs Sidney Crosby and the Penguins Alex Ovechkin goes for career point 1,000 vs Sidney Crosby and the Penguins

And I go for my 1000th FIRST SUCK IT JERO. SUCK IT LONG AND HARD

And I go for my 1000th FIRST SUCK IT JERO. SUCK IT LONG AND HARD
- martox

Ok question. What in the world started this suck it Jero thing? He never posts here.

i was going to ask who the f is JERO!

Hes also doing it with spacecraft sticks that flex.

Pretty good company and once again, worth noting the caliber of goaltenders he did it against. If you were to era-adjust Ovechkin’s current goal total he would be at 645 and not 544. Sid would be at 444 instead of 364 for comparison per Hockey Reference. Points wise Ovechkin is at 1159 era-adjusted and 999 raw total. Sidney Crosby is 1,149 era-adjusted and 982 raw total.
- Ryan_Wilson

Yes, goaltenders and defensive schemes in the 80s were awful. However, you also had players using 1-piece wooden sticks, obstruction was rampant, players used gloves that actually impeded their ability to handle the puck, and most important, you weren't allowed a 2-line pass. Not taking anything away from Ovechkin or Crosby, but for every point that made the 80s better for offensive players, there's a counterpoint that made it harder.

Edit: I think Ovechkin will crack 800 goals barring injury. However, when it comes to best goal-scorer ever, I think it's probably either Bossy or Bure, both of whom had injury-shortened careers.

Ok question. What in the world started this suck it Jero thing? He never posts here.
- Victoro311

poster on the oilers thread. think a mix of the worst of holeinone and bartley in one person. I just posted it here cuz I never have enough power in me to look for the oilers blog and try to get a first.

poster on the oilers thread. think a mix of the worst of holeinone and bartley in one person. I just posted it here cuz I never have enough power in me to look for the oilers blog and try to get a first.
- martox

Yeah I know who he is. I don't really see the holeinone comparison though. I just don't get why his name keeps coming up in the "suck it first" posts haha.

Yes, goaltenders and defensive schemes in the 80s were awful. However, you also had players using 1-piece wooden sticks, obstruction was rampant, players used gloves that actually impeded their ability to handle the puck, and most important, you weren't allowed a 2-line pass. Not taking anything away from Ovechkin or Crosby, but for every point that made the 80s better for offensive players, there's a counterpoint that made it harder.

Edit: I think Ovechkin will crack 800 goals barring injury. However, when it comes to best goal-scorer ever, I think it's probably either Bossy or Bure, both of whom had injury-shortened careers.
- jmatchett383

Too young to have seen Bossy or really even Pavel Bure with any form of mature hockey sense, but I think there's something to be said about a guy who's almost an automatic 50 goal scorer every season in an era where goals are difficult to come by. Its up to you old guys to decide who the real GOAT is, but I'll always casually argue Ovechkin.

Yeah I know who he is. I don't really see the holeinone comparison though. I just don't get why his name keeps coming up in the "suck it first" posts haha.
- Victoro311

to be honest I don't really know that either

Seriously, why do people insist on trying to compare things that can't be compared? era-adjusted stats may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. As jmatchett pointed out, does this adjusting account for the changes in technology of the equipment? does it account for the improvements in training techniques that make today's athletes bigger, faster and stronger? Does it account for not only the changes in playing rules between the eras but also the changes in playing styles between the eras? Or is this just another example of someone that never played hockey and doesn't really understand the game trying to create a mythical place where they can just make up an explanation for the things they don't understand?

Looking at it a little further, what are the perimeters for the adjustment? Are we assuming that we are transporting the current player back in time just as he is today and inserting him into game action of that era? Are we transporting the player back but adjusting the current player to meet that era's criteria(equipment, training methods and so forth)? I mean what exacting are we adjusting?

There's are the type of things that make this type of analysis so ridiculous and irrelevant, there's just no way to quantify how the intangible variable that can't be accounted for affect the production. If you transported a modern day player back in time to a different era even an average player would completely destroy the competition of that era because of the advancements in things like equipment and training, it's really just that simple, Tyler Kennedy would be the best player in the world if you transported him as is back to 1983 and injected him into a game.

Yes, goaltenders and defensive schemes in the 80s were awful. However, you also had players using 1-piece wooden sticks, obstruction was rampant, players used gloves that actually impeded their ability to handle the puck, and most important, you weren't allowed a 2-line pass. Not taking anything away from Ovechkin or Crosby, but for every point that made the 80s better for offensive players, there's a counterpoint that made it harder.

Edit: I think Ovechkin will crack 800 goals barring injury. However, when it comes to best goal-scorer ever, I think it's probably either Bossy or Bure, both of whom had injury-shortened careers.
- jmatchett383

meh. I will take A FULLY HEALTHY Mario with no back problems or cancer through his entire career. even though mike bossy had 0.76 Goal per game while mario had 0.75 goal per game but bossy played in the early 80s only. it is really amazing that he never had a season with below 50 goals. except his last season ofc where he was 29 and only played 63 games

Too young to have seen Bossy or really even Pavel Bure with any form of mature hockey sense, but I think there's something to be said about a guy who's almost an automatic 50 goal scorer every season in an era where goals are difficult to come by. Its up to you old guys to decide who the real GOAT is, but I'll always casually argue Ovechkin.
- Victoro311

As 1 of those "old guys" that grew up with the game in the late 80's and early 90's, idolizing players like Hull, Bure, Mogilny, LaFontaine and Selanne I say without a shadow of a doubt that Ovechkin is the best pure shooter/goal scorer I have every seen. All of those guys were amazing but what Ovechkin has done with so little room to shoot just far surpasses what those guys did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Y26D7porM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUeI8TS-jt0

Watch those highlights of some of Hull's best goals and tell me if you honestly think any of those shots would have scored on a 6'5" 230# goalie that fills 95% of the net when in the butterfly.

As 1 of those "old guys" that grew up with the game in the late 80's and early 90's, idolizing players like Hull, Bure, Mogilny, LaFontaine and Selanne I say without a shadow of a doubt that Ovechkin is the best pure shooter/goal scorer I have every seen. All of those guys were amazing but what Ovechkin has done with so little room to shoot just far surpasses what those guys did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Y26D7porM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUeI8TS-jt0

Watch those highlights of some of Hull's best goals and tell me if you honestly think any of those shots would have scored on a 6'5" 230# goalie that fills 95% of the net when in the butterfly.
- jaydogg1974

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t--zsOdP-E

Found another clip that shows highlights of who they considered the top 10 goal scorers. Again when you watch imagine how many of those shots would have actually scored on 1 of today's goalies, especially the Marcel Dionne goal at around 1:57 where he slides the puck right beside the goalie's foot who never went down and just tried to kick at the puck instead.

As 1 of those "old guys" that grew up with the game in the late 80's and early 90's, idolizing players like Hull, Bure, Mogilny, LaFontaine and Selanne I say without a shadow of a doubt that Ovechkin is the best pure shooter/goal scorer I have every seen. All of those guys were amazing but what Ovechkin has done with so little room to shoot just far surpasses what those guys did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Y26D7porM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUeI8TS-jt0

Watch those highlights of some of Hull's best goals and tell me if you honestly think any of those shots would have scored on a 6'5" 230# goalie that fills 95% of the net when in the butterfly.
- jaydogg1974

Yes, I do think a lot of Hull's goals would go in today. He shot from the same place as OV likes, but had a heavier shot and got it away quicker. Not saying he'd score 86 goals today, but I think 55-60 would be reasonable (is that "a lot?").

The thing about Bure was that you just couldn't catch him. When he came in, he was instantly the quickest player in the game and had the finish as well.

What Ovechkin brings that those guys didn't was the physical element. Hull was big enough, but didn't use his size and was an average skater. Bure was quick as a flash, but was a nonexistent physical entity. OV kind of takes a little of both of their games and adds some physicality. As a player, I'd take him over Bure or Hull or almost anyone ever. But as a pure goal scorer, having the ability to get the shot off quickly and have it go in, I'm probably taking Bossy or Bure. But I think OV is a surefire top-5. When you get to saying "best of all-time" the difference between 1 and 5 is marginal in most cases.

Yes, I do think a lot of Hull's goals would go in today. He shot from the same place as OV likes, but had a heavier shot and got it away quicker. Not saying he'd score 86 goals today, but I think 55-60 would be reasonable (is that "a lot?").

The thing about Bure was that you just couldn't catch him. When he came in, he was instantly the quickest player in the game and had the finish as well.

What Ovechkin brings that those guys didn't was the physical element. Hull was big enough, but didn't use his size and was an average skater. Bure was quick as a flash, but was a nonexistent physical entity. OV kind of takes a little of both of their games and adds some physicality. As a player, I'd take him over Bure or Hull or almost anyone ever. But as a pure goal scorer, having the ability to get the shot off quickly and have it go in, I'm probably taking Bossy or Bure. But I think OV is a surefire top-5. When you get to saying "best of all-time" the difference between 1 and 5 is marginal in most cases.
- jmatchett383

I agree with what you said about where the shots came from and about Hull having a quick release and heavy shot but I think the accuracy of the shot is what would make the biggest difference. When you look at the placement of where those shots score many of them score in areas that wouldn't be open on a modern day goaltender. I think Hull would still be a good goal scorer in the modern era but I think he would be more of a 35-40 goal scorer which is still very good but not in the same class as Ovechkin. It is possible that Hull could/would have developed better accuracy out of necessity and could have scored more but there's just no way to know that.

I agree with what you said about where the shots came from and about Hull having a quick release and heavy shot but I think the accuracy of the shot is what would make the biggest difference. When you look at the placement of where those shots score many of them score in areas that wouldn't be open on a modern day goaltender. I think Hull would still be a good goal scorer in the modern era but I think he would be more of a 35-40 goal scorer which is still very good but not in the same class as Ovechkin. It is possible that Hull could/would have developed better accuracy out of necessity and could have scored more but there's just no way to know that.
- jaydogg1974

Well, like you said: are we taking 2008 OV and transporting him back to 1988, or are we assuming OV was born 20 years earlier, and the reverse for Hull? You can't tell, and that's it's almost impossible to compare across eras. I'm going only on what my brain can recall in my rare viewings of those guys (there was no youtube/NHL Network back then) when I make my call.

I think when looking at this it's important to also looking at the shooting% of the players which also directly relates to the changes in the goaltending position. Hull had a career sh% of 15.2% with a high of 22.1% in his 86 goal season, Mogilny had a career mark of 15.9% with a high 21.1% in his 76 goal season. Ovechkin has a career mark of 12.4% and has never peaked higher than 14.6%. If Ovechkin spent his career shooting on goaltenders that were 6' or under, wore equipment half the size of what goalies wear today I have no doubt his sh% would be much higher, if Ovechkin matched Mogilny's career mark of 15.9% he would have 697 goals at this point in his career.

Well, like you said: are we taking 2008 OV and transporting him back to 1988, or are we assuming OV was born 20 years earlier, and the reverse for Hull? You can't tell, and that's it's almost impossible to compare across eras. I'm going only on what my brain can recall in my rare viewings of those guys (there was no youtube/NHL Network back then) when I make my call.
- jmatchett383

I agree completely. That's why I was trying to take the player out of the equation and look at it strictly from the shot point of view. Regardless of who shot the pucks in those clips I don't think a lot of those pucks would have gone in on a modern day goalie.

I think when looking at this it's important to also looking at the shooting% of the players which also directly relates to the changes in the goaltending position. Hull had a career sh% of 15.2% with a high of 22.1% in his 86 goal season, Mogilny had a career mark of 15.9% with a high 21.1% in his 76 goal season. Ovechkin has a career mark of 12.4% and has never peaked higher than 14.6%. If Ovechkin spent his career shooting on goaltenders that were 6' or under, wore equipment half the size of what goalies wear today I have no doubt his sh% would be much higher, if Ovechkin matched Mogilny's career mark of 15.9% he would have 697 goals at this point in his career.
- jaydogg1974

And if Ovechkin had to shoot with a 1-piece wooden stick, had to deal with the red line, and was allowed to be absolutely mugged without a penalty, or vice versa for Hull/Bure/Bossy/Mogilny/etc. what do you think would happen?

Edit: I did a quick study years back of Gretzky's 92 goal season and OV's 65 goal season. What we did was take % of player's goals for the entire league, normalized to 30 teams for Gretzky. Ovechkin was close, but still not quite at the same level. Then again, Ovechkin didn't play on a team that had players like Jagr, Mullen, Trottier, Stevens, Murphy, Recchi, Tochhet...whoops, sorry, wrong HHOF-filled team.

So yes, OV's #'s would probably be higher in the 80s. But I don't think he'd be putting up 80/90 goal seasons because, again, for every rule change that would favor him, there's one that would detract as well.

And if Ovechkin had to shoot with a 1-piece wooden stick, had to deal with the red line, and was allowed to be absolutely mugged without a penalty, or vice versa for Hull/Bure/Bossy/Mogilny/etc. what do you think would happen?

Edit: I did a quick study years back of Gretzky's 92 goal season and OV's 65 goal season. What we did was take % of player's goals for the entire league, normalized to 30 teams for Gretzky. Ovechkin was close, but still not quite at the same level. Then again, Ovechkin didn't play on a team that had players like Jagr, Mullen, Trottier, Stevens, Murphy, Recchi, Tochhet...whoops, sorry, wrong HHOF-filled team.

So yes, OV's #'s would probably be higher in the 80s. But I don't think he'd be putting up 80/90 goal seasons because, again, for every rule change that would favor him, there's one that would detract as well.
- jmatchett383

You can't just compare rule changes. The best comparison is overall goals/game or something like that and adjusting. Crossing one rule change off for another one doesn't differentiate for magnitude.

Also 3rd/4th line players are far more athletic than they were 20-30 years ago. That along with change in goalie technique (this is the big one) are the primary factors. Everything else is rather marginal.

The top guys almost certainly train harder than say Gretzky 20-25 years ago. My guess modern Ovechkin with those rules would blow past Gretzky's total. But if you assume Ovechkin also used 1980's training then he would be a weaker player too and probably put up Gretzky's total or a little less.

Honestly think even top 20 scorers today with modern nutrition/training would completely blow away guys in the 1980's. Babe Ruth with his conditioning back then might be a AA player today.

Honestly think even top 20 scorers today with modern nutrition/training would completely blow away guys in the 1980's. Babe Ruth with his conditioning back then might be a AA player today.

Reminds me of the time I saw Prince Fielder in the SI body issue.

Good times.

I agree completely. That's why I was trying to take the player out of the equation and look at it strictly from the shot point of view. Regardless of who shot the pucks in those clips I don't think a lot of those pucks would have gone in on a modern day goalie.
- jaydogg1974

Fleury says hello!

jk....

You can't just compare rule changes. The best comparison is overall goals/game or something like that and adjusting. Crossing one rule change off for another one doesn't differentiate for magnitude.

Also 3rd/4th line players are far more athletic than they were 20-30 years ago. That along with change in goalie technique (this is the big one) are the primary factors. Everything else is rather marginal.

The top guys almost certainly train harder than say Gretzky 20-25 years ago. My guess modern Ovechkin with those rules would blow past Gretzky's total. But if you assume Ovechkin also used 1980's training then he would be a weaker player too and probably put up Gretzky's total or a little less.

Honestly think even top 20 scorers today with modern nutrition/training would completely blow away guys in the 1980's. Babe Ruth with his conditioning back then might be a AA player today.
- sditulli

If you take 1950 Gordie Howe and put him in today's game, he wouldn't even be able to compete in the AHL as more than a 4th liner. But that's the thing; you can't just take a player from 2010 and throw him in a time machine, which is what these "adjusted" totals try to do. There's really no way of knowing. If Ovechkin had to use 1980's equipment and training, he's be a superstar, but he wouldn't be nearly as good as he is today.

Reminds me of the time I saw Prince Fielder in the SI body issue.

Good times.
- DeflatedPucks

Somehow, I don't think Prince (or Cecil) Fielder's diet consisted mainly of hot dogs and beer.