Bob Duff: Green shoots, Green scores The Detroit Red Wings asked Mike Green to shoot the puck more this season. Monday, he shot the first hat-trick of his NHL career.

I felt Green was our best dman down the stretch last year... and I missed his first couple of games this year, but this is exactly what he was brought in for. Offense, Offense and Offense.

still early in the season and I have not changed my stance, that with elite talent this team will be a bubble team at best.

but every once in a while you still get a night to be proud of. Be nice to see Greener come into his own a little bit and Vanek to keep up a decent pace for his current pay scale.

(PS- nice to Helm actually burying some for a change with the chances he gets).

Holland totally sucks for overpaying Green last summer, and Vanek this summer. Hasn't been a good GM since 2009 when he let Hossa walk while signing Franzen. Regular season workhorses are more important than playoff performers.

No GM is perfect. No team is perfect. If watching Lidstrom for 20 years gave you this mentality that not having a generational defenseman (and IMO the best in hockey history) patrolling your blue-line means that you need to blow it up, and your GM sucks for not waving a white flag at every instance your team struggles, then find another team to cheer for.

Hey, maybe Helm is going to actually earn that $3.8 million paycheck. He's looking really good 3 games in. Last night's game was fun to watch. There's no doubt in me that this team can make the playoffs, and whether they do or not isn't up to me, but I'd rather watch them try to be winners than accept being losers and draft 5th-10th in a shallow pool.

Holland totally sucks for overpaying Green last summer, and Vanek this summer. Hasn't been a good GM since 2009 when he let Hossa walk while signing Franzen. Regular season workhorses are more important than playoff performers.

No GM is perfect. No team is perfect. If watching Lidstrom for 20 years gave you this mentality that not having a generational defenseman (and IMO the best in hockey history) patrolling your blue-line means that you need to blow it up, and your GM sucks for not waving a white flag at every instance your team struggles, then find another team to cheer for.

Hey, maybe Helm is going to actually earn that $3.8 million paycheck. He's looking really good 3 games in. Last night's game was fun to watch. There's no doubt in me that this team can make the playoffs, and whether they do or not isn't up to me, but I'd rather watch them try to be winners than accept being losers and draft 5th-10th in a shallow pool.
- TwoPieceFeed

Im sooooooo sick of hearing this, its simply not true, 1st off he offered on hossa, he declined, what do you want him to do? over pay him like crazy and lose a bunch of future guys cause you cant afford them? like everyone. stop. bringing. up. hossa. its. over. plain. and. simple.

Im sooooooo sick of hearing this, its simply not true, 1st off he offered on hossa, he declined, what do you want him to do? over pay him like crazy and lose a bunch of future guys cause you cant afford them? like everyone. stop. bringing. up. hossa. its. over. plain. and. simple.
- digitalbath

Agreed. Don't forget, Franzen was also coming off a monster year and there was every indication that he would earn that contract.

TwoPieceFeed, I appreciate your perspective but you are fighting a strawman. Like most posters here I generally think Holland is a bad cap era GM, but:

1. I loved (and still love) the Green signing. He's probably not quite a $6 million defenseman anymore, but he was exactly what the Wings needed and was signed to a reasonable term (3 years) that expires when he's still just 31. That's a smart, solid investment for a team that still wants to keep making the playoffs without breaking the bank (too much) or hurting the team in the long run.

2. The Vanek signing never bothered me in and of itself. A one-year deal for a right-handed goal scorer, even an aging one, is justifiable considering goal scoring was the Wings' biggest problem. And he's had a great start to the year. In the short term, I'm much more upset about bringing back Miller and signing Ott. IMO neither of these guys have anything left to give at the NHL level -- they're ostensibly "defensive" forwards but they don't even play good defense anymore. And they're superfluous anyway with Glendening, Sheahan, Helm, Nielsen, Abdelkader, and AA all already on the roster and available to play "shutdown" minutes when necessary. Detroit could have signed Vanek AND kept Frk and Pulkkinen if they had made it a priority. That's on Holland.

3. I've probably been harder on Helm than he deserved. For the record, I think he's a decent third liner and still probably the best defensive forward / PKer on the team. He's had a great start to the year and hopefully it continues, but looking at what he's been able to accomplish even when stapled to Datsyuk's hip I'm not optimistic he's more than a 30-35 point guy even in a top-six role, unless they decide to stick him on the PP all season long. Short term, does he make the team better? Yes. Is he worth $3.8 million? Probably not. Is he likely to be worth $3.8 million four years from now? Almost certainly not.

4. I don't think anyone here thinks we need "another Lidstrom" to be competitive. We accept that replacing true greatness on a historic scale 1-for-1 is impossible. I do think it's reasonable to complain, however, that Holland has invested a significant amount of money and term on players who don't move the needle -- Kronwall, Ericsson, and DeKeyser. I can sort of forgive the Kronwall deal to an extent (it was always ludicrous to expect him to still be good into his late-30s, but the first half of the deal produced very good value for Detroit) but in terms of today, IMO Kronner and DDK are league average at best, and E52 should have washed out of the NHL by now if not for his contract.

I understand that it isn't easy or cheap to acquire good NHL defenders even in the best circumstances, but Ken Holland has made this already-difficult task nearly impossible due to the way he has structured the unit post-Lidstrom. If you want to trade for a first-pair D in the NHL today your package almost always needs to include an established NHL D to go back the other way that your trade partner would actually want. Detroit has exactly zero of those players. DDK would have possibly served that purpose before his ludicrous extension, and Smith might if he weren't a UFA this summer. Everyone else is either not good enough, too expensive, too unproven, or a combination thereof. Like I said it was always going to be a challenge to rebuild the back end after Lidstrom retired, but Holland made a bad situation worse by overvaluing the players he had left and locking them up to deals they could never live up to.

Im sooooooo sick of hearing this, its simply not true, 1st off he offered on hossa, he declined, what do you want him to do? over pay him like crazy and lose a bunch of future guys cause you cant afford them? like everyone. stop. bringing. up. hossa. its. over. plain. and. simple.
- digitalbath

I was being facetious. Lol, sorry.

I continue to support his decision to keep the Mule over Hossa. Franzen was home-grown talent with ridiculous playoff numbers and signed for less than $4 million/year... Holland offered Hossa about $5.5 million/year for, what? 6 years? Moving on...

I was being facetious. Lol, sorry.

I continue to support his decision to keep the Mule over Hossa. Franzen was home-grown talent with ridiculous playoff numbers and signed for less than $4 million/year... Holland offered Hossa about $5.5 million/year for, what? 6 years? Moving on...
- TwoPieceFeed

I understand, i truly believe helm and Abby contract will be the worst in the long run, think about ericsson, when he was good and then got that contract, these are gonna feel similar, too long

TwoPieceFeed, I appreciate your perspective but you are fighting a strawman. Like most posters here I generally think Holland is a bad cap era GM, but:

1. I loved (and still love) the Green signing. He's probably not quite a $6 million defenseman anymore, but he was exactly what the Wings needed and was signed to a reasonable term (3 years) that expires when he's still just 31. That's a smart, solid investment for a team that still wants to keep making the playoffs without breaking the bank (too much) or hurting the team in the long run.

2. The Vanek signing never bothered me in and of itself. A one-year deal for a right-handed goal scorer, even an aging one, is justifiable considering goal scoring was the Wings' biggest problem. And he's had a great start to the year. In the short term, I'm much more upset about bringing back Miller and signing Ott. IMO neither of these guys have anything left to give at the NHL level -- they're ostensibly "defensive" forwards but they don't even play good defense anymore. And they're superfluous anyway with Glendening, Sheahan, Helm, Nielsen, Abdelkader, and AA all already on the roster and available to play "shutdown" minutes when necessary. Detroit could have signed Vanek AND kept Frk and Pulkkinen if they had made it a priority. That's on Holland.

3. I've probably been harder on Helm than he deserved. For the record, I think he's a decent third liner and still probably the best defensive forward / PKer on the team. He's had a great start to the year and hopefully it continues, but looking at what he's been able to accomplish even when stapled to Datsyuk's hip I'm not optimistic he's more than a 30-35 point guy even in a top-six role, unless they decide to stick him on the PP all season long. Short term, does he make the team better? Yes. Is he worth $3.8 million? Probably not. Is he likely to be worth $3.8 million four years from now? Almost certainly not.

4. I don't think anyone here thinks we need "another Lidstrom" to be competitive. We accept that replacing true greatness on a historic scale 1-for-1 is impossible. I do think it's reasonable to complain, however, that Holland has invested a significant amount of money and term on players who don't move the needle -- Kronwall, Ericsson, and DeKeyser. I can sort of forgive the Kronwall deal to an extent (it was always ludicrous to expect him to still be good into his late-30s, but the first half of the deal produced very good value for Detroit) but in terms of today, IMO Kronner and DDK are league average at best, and E52 should have washed out of the NHL by now if not for his contract.

I understand that it isn't easy or cheap to acquire good NHL defenders even in the best circumstances, but Ken Holland has made this already-difficult task nearly impossible due to the way he has structured the unit post-Lidstrom. If you want to trade for a first-pair D in the NHL today your package almost always needs to include an established NHL D to go back the other way that your trade partner would actually want. Detroit has exactly zero of those players. DDK would have possibly served that purpose before his ludicrous extension, and Smith might if he weren't a UFA this summer. Everyone else is either not good enough, too expensive, too unproven, or a combination thereof. Like I said it was always going to be a challenge to rebuild the back end after Lidstrom retired, but Holland made a bad situation worse by overvaluing the players he had left and locking them up to deals they could never live up to.
- Sven22

I just disagree that he's a "bad cap era GM". He's certainly no wizard like Yzerman appears to be, but he (#19) has an income tax-free team advantage there as well.

Taking his full body of work into account; from drafting and developing, to extending contracts and signing FAs, I think he's well above average.

IMO you have to weigh opportunity. The opportunity to draft well between 2005 and 2010 was worse than any other team based on their success, yet he was able to find (not alone, of course, they have an entire team dedicated to scouting but it's ultimately his choice) Nyquist, Tatar, Mrazek, etc.

The opportunity to sign free agents hasn't been high in recent years because of their playoff success (lack thereof), yet he signed Vanek, Green, Alfredsson, DeKeyser, Russo, Bertuzzi, etc. Players every team courted.

Many fans will point to his "weakness" in trading, however, not many teams want to improve an organization that has been successful and profitable for 25 years. He's still made a few good ones (Stuart). I wouldn't say he's ever been robbed in a trade, and I wouldn't say he's ever let free talent go that's ever been impactful anywhere else.

No one will ever be completely happy with everything their favorite team's GM does, and that includes myself, but I don't see many fair criticisms (which is perspective). You don't like the Miller signing, for example, but I think it's good. I see the necessity for players that specialize in the defensive aspect of the game that take pressure off young players that might be expected to do so if they weren't around. Kinda how Babcock was putting Smith on the PK instead of the PP when that was the opposite of his natural skill set...

Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. I disagree that Holland deserves recognition as a failure considering that he's signed some of the bigger FA defensemen in years past (despite not being able to draft any difference-makers), along with drafting guys like Larkin and Mrazek that are current pillars to DRW success. Some of the contracts we carry right now aren't great, but I don't think there's any situation you could point to where they're breaking the ability to improve the roster. Howard is the only exception IMO.

Agreed. Don't forget, Franzen was also coming off a monster year and there was every indication that he would earn that contract.
- cocothemonkey

NHL record for most goals in a 4-game playoff series (9).
Detroit Red Wings record for most game-winning goals in one month, March 2008 (6).
Detroit Red Wings record for most goals in a single playoff series (9).
Detroit Red Wings record for consecutive playoff games with a point (12, tied with Gordie Howe)
Detroit Red Wings record for consecutive playoff games with a goal (5, tied with Gordie Howe and Ted Lindsay).
Detroit Red Wings record for most goals in a single playoff year (13, tied with Henrik Zetterberg).
Detroit Red Wings record for most game-winning goals in one playoff year (5, 2008)
Detroit Red Wings record for most points in a playoff game (6), 6 May 2010, vs. San Jose Sharks


Dude gets injured, and suddenly he's a piece of trash?

My criticism of Holland basically boils down to this:

1) Poor judge of risk vs. reward. In my opinion Holland is an extremely risk-averse GM. He seems to make decisions based more on what the worst possible outcome is instead of what the average or best outcome might be. So players he's familiar with get re-signed and veteran stopgaps get plugged in rather than trusting his younger (but unproven) talent. While this minimizes the possibility of a short-term disaster, it also limits the possible gains. As those veterans get older, the level of play overall starts to sink.

This also comes with a considerable opportunity cost -- instead of getting a few extra productive seasons out of a Tatar, Nyquist, or Mrazek (who I am convinced were more than NHL-ready long before they got their shots), Athanasiou, Mantha, or even a Callahan or a Nosek on entry level deals (under $1 million), he spends several times that amount on veterans who are at best only marginally better. This hurts you twice: one, you have less money to spend improving the team elsewhere, and two, you give up maximizing the value you get out of your rookies while their salaries are still artificially low.

2) Overvaluing his own players and underestimating the aging curve. Most of Holland's bad contracts have a pattern -- they start out with a yearly number that's okay (or close to okay) at the outset, but then they go on way, waaaaaay too long. Most of the cap hits you could justify if the deals were only a couple of years long when they were signed, but instead they go on for 4, 5, 6, 7 seasons, deep into the player's 30s.

The old Red Wings got lucky a bit in that they had a bunch of HOF players who could decline a TON and still be effective NHLers in their late 30s, or even 40s in the case of historically elite guys like Lidstrom and Hasek. They also had some role guys with uncommon longevity, like Draper and Holmstrom. But the truth is most players lose a lot of production after 30, and if they were complimentary pieces at best even in their prime they don't have to tail off much before they're out of the league.

In 2016-17, $5.25 million for Nielsen is justifiable. $8 million for Abdelkader and Helm combined is too high, but not a complete disaster. The cap figures for Zetterberg, Kronwall, and Howard were all at least within a reasonable range on the day they were signed, even though they're not good value now (and Howard's is atrocious). Ericsson's deal was bad from the minute it was signed, but one $4 million mistake shouldn't torpedo a tem that's otherwise built intelligently.

But every single one of those players is signed for a MINIMUM of two years after this one, some many years beyond that. Right now, as a group, they are already overpaid in the aggregate. Right now the Detroit Red Wings, as a whole, are an average-to-below-average NHL team despite being more than $5 million OVER the salary cap. And every single one of the players mentioned in the preceding paragraph projects to get worse, not better, in that time frame.

IMO what Holland is doing is essentially setting up a slow-motion train wreck miles in advance. Yes, he's kept the team on the playoff bubble. They could very well make it in this year and maybe even next, especially if Larkin and/or Mrazek develop into legit all-star talents. It probably won't all crash down in one spectacular collapse. But unless Holland has a magic ace up his sleeve I believe that crash is close to inevitable, and each time Holland kicks the can down the road with another bad long-term signing, he may delay it for another year but in exchange makes it worse (lower bottom-out point), harder to avoid and harder to recover from.

NHL record for most goals in a 4-game playoff series (9).
Detroit Red Wings record for most game-winning goals in one month, March 2008 (6).
Detroit Red Wings record for most goals in a single playoff series (9).
Detroit Red Wings record for consecutive playoff games with a point (12, tied with Gordie Howe)
Detroit Red Wings record for consecutive playoff games with a goal (5, tied with Gordie Howe and Ted Lindsay).
Detroit Red Wings record for most goals in a single playoff year (13, tied with Henrik Zetterberg).
Detroit Red Wings record for most game-winning goals in one playoff year (5, 2008)
Detroit Red Wings record for most points in a playoff game (6), 6 May 2010, vs. San Jose Sharks


Dude gets injured, and suddenly he's a piece of trash?
- Blackstrom2

My sarcasm was misunderstood, which is where this discussion began.

Franzen might be the 2nd best playoff performer the Red Wings have ever seen (Sergei Fedorov). Zetterberg is close there. When he was healthy, he also had one of the best contracts throughout the league (roughly 60 points/82 games for less than $4 million).

For all of his alleged coasting/floating, he was considered the best defensive forward in Sweden for multiple years prior to being drafted (and also in 2004-05), and even between 2005 and 2008 was extremely dependable defensively (according to Babcock and Yzerman/Lidstrom). It was only when he opened up offensively that he was portrayed as a liability, which I completely disagree with. Similar to the contrast of recent Vanek stereotypes, Franzen was often in the right place at the right time and worked as hard as Pav and Z to get where he needed to be to help the team defend and win games.

Holland is without a doubt a bad new cap era gm. Arguing this point is easy and been beaten to a pulp. Other than the two posters that disagree everyone else sees it.
Over value, and to lengthy always.

Weiss - 5 years
Nielsen -6 years (38 years old will start decline making 5.2 mill)
Howard - 5 years (5.25 mill back up tendy)
Helm - 5 years ( should've gotten 2-3)
Kindl - 4 years (shouldn't even be in nhl)
Quincey - 4.5 mill x 2. (Lucky to get a 1.5 mill contract in jersey)
Zetterberg - 12 years ( 6 mill till he's 40 while declining in play)
Ericsson - 6 years ( full ntc)
Kronwall 7 years
Franzen - 11 years (39 years old)
Abs - 7 years (36 years old)
Tootoo/ott - who knows what these guys were signed for.

These are just the most recent signings.
Holland is now ranked "by experts" as the 20th ranked gm in the league.
kenny is running a nursing home, the key is to sign players coming into there prime not going out.
If you can't develop a player within a couple years in the ahl than there's a good chance they ain't going to be super effective in the nhl.
nashville got rid of shea weber (unreal def) to free themselves of that poopty contract length he got.

I'm sure the old well these guys do what other players do on there teams and deserve that money. That's total bs, just because you have a player that plays second line in det doesn't mean he deserves second line money like other teams "better" second liners. Let them walk and someone else with overpay.

Wings are top in the league in cap money being 5.1 mill over and there a team that will be on the bubble.

Let the rebutles begin !!!!!!

My sarcasm was misunderstood, which is where this discussion began.

Franzen might be the 2nd best playoff performer the Red Wings have ever seen (Sergei Fedorov). Zetterberg is close there. When he was healthy, he also had one of the best contracts throughout the league (roughly 60 points/82 games for less than $4 million).

For all of his alleged coasting/floating, he was considered the best defensive forward in Sweden for multiple years prior to being drafted (and also in 2004-05), and even between 2005 and 2008 was extremely dependable defensively (according to Babcock and Yzerman/Lidstrom). It was only when he opened up offensively that he was portrayed as a liability, which I completely disagree with. Similar to the contrast of recent Vanek stereotypes, Franzen was often in the right place at the right time and worked as hard as Pav and Z to get where he needed to be to help the team defend and win games.
- TwoPieceFeed

Sometimes the internet makes us immune to sarcasm so no worries. As I stated earlier, Franzen was a beast and deserved that contract. No one could foresee the injuries he's had to deal with, including Ken Holland. As for more recent signings, well......

Holland is without a doubt a bad new cap era gm. Arguing this point is easy and been beaten to a pulp. Other than the two posters that disagree everyone else sees it.
Over value, and to lengthy always.

Weiss - 5 years
Nielsen -6 years (38 years old will start decline making 5.2 mill)
Howard - 5 years (5.25 mill back up tendy)
Helm - 5 years ( should've gotten 2-3)
Kindl - 4 years (shouldn't even be in nhl)
Quincey - 4.5 mill x 2. (Lucky to get a 1.5 mill contract in jersey)
Zetterberg - 12 years ( 6 mill till he's 40 while declining in play)
Ericsson - 6 years ( full ntc)
Kronwall 7 years
Franzen - 11 years (39 years old)
Abs - 7 years (36 years old)
Tootoo/ott - who knows what these guys were signed for.

These are just the most recent signings.
Holland is now ranked "by experts" as the 20th ranked gm in the league.
kenny is running a nursing home, the key is to sign players coming into there prime not going out.
If you can't develop a player within a couple years in the ahl than there's a good chance they ain't going to be super effective in the nhl.
nashville got rid of shea weber (unreal def) to free themselves of that poopty contract length he got.

I'm sure the old well these guys do what other players do on there teams and deserve that money. That's total bs, just because you have a player that plays second line in det doesn't mean he deserves second line money like other teams "better" second liners. Let them walk and someone else with overpay.

Wings are top in the league in cap money being 5.1 mill over and there a team that will be on the bubble.

Let the rebutles begin !!!!!!
- hockeyislife99

Some of these contracts are not even close to "recent signings". And your reasoning behind them being bad is ridiculously hind-sighted.

I suggest you re-evaluate your "easy argument".

Edit: Examples

1. The Weiss contract looked promising when signed. The organization admitted its poor decision by buying out the poorly performed player.

2. Nielsen is 32. He'll likely be in full decline by the last 2 years and not worth that sort of money. Likely. There are no guarantees. You have to overpay in salary/years to acquire free agents, and we signed the best available center. Not worth discussing this sort of contract until many years into the future.

3. Helm. Completely disagree with your opinion of term. He is worth, IMO, $3 million max (cap hit). There are guys like Kruger who score 0 goals and make $3 million, though, and his lack of communication last season drove up his price. His athleticism and drive suggest that he can continue to be an effective center/forward until probably 35. The term is good, the cap hit itself is questionable, and IMO an over-payment.

4. Kindl doesn't play for this team anymore and doesn't get payed enough to care about where he's playing in the AHL...

5. Quincey also doesn't play for this team and doesn't get paid by this team, and when he did (the last couple of years), actually played well for the most part surprisingly.

6. Zetterberg's contract for the first 6 years was an absolute steal. He also still produces 50 points (Top 6) a season, is the Captain and bonafide leader of this team, and I have nothing else to say about this one because it's absolutely ridiculous.

7. Kronwall. Now you're smoking something. < $5 million for a top-line producing defenseman for about 5 years. LESS THAN 5 MILLION DOLLARS FOR A 40-50 POINT DEFENSEMAN. WOW.

8. I've already commented on Franzen and there isn't a single second he played during his contract that it was ever bad for the Red Wings. It still isn't since it affects the salary cap in no meaningful manner.

Abdelkader is debatable. It looked good last year.

Tootoo and Ott. Wtf? Small potatoes. Tootoo actually played really well when he was on the team. Ott has played 1 game...

NHL record for most goals in a 4-game playoff series (9).
Detroit Red Wings record for most game-winning goals in one month, March 2008 (6).
Detroit Red Wings record for most goals in a single playoff series (9).
Detroit Red Wings record for consecutive playoff games with a point (12, tied with Gordie Howe)
Detroit Red Wings record for consecutive playoff games with a goal (5, tied with Gordie Howe and Ted Lindsay).
Detroit Red Wings record for most goals in a single playoff year (13, tied with Henrik Zetterberg).
Detroit Red Wings record for most game-winning goals in one playoff year (5, 2008)
Detroit Red Wings record for most points in a playoff game (6), 6 May 2010, vs. San Jose Sharks


Dude gets injured, and suddenly he's a piece of trash?
- Blackstrom2

His game completely changed after the injuries pilled up. He became a 100% perimeter player trying to not get hurt instead of playing any type of power game. He'll never be cleared to play again, so it's honestly not that big of a deal anymore. Most of these guys contracts are insured for these types of long-term injuries, hopefully his was.

Some of these contracts are not even close to "recent signings". And your reasoning behind them being bad is ridiculously hind-sighted.

I suggest you re-evaluate your "easy argument".

Edit: Examples

1. The Weiss contract looked promising when signed. The organization admitted its poor decision by buying out the poorly performed player.

2. Nielsen is 32. He'll likely be in full decline by the last 2 years and not worth that sort of money. Likely. There are no guarantees. You have to overpay in salary/years to acquire free agents, and we signed the best available center. Not worth discussing this sort of contract until many years into the future.

3. Helm. Completely disagree with your opinion of term. He is worth, IMO, $3 million max (cap hit). There are guys like Kruger who score 0 goals and make $3 million, though, and his lack of communication last season drove up his price. His athleticism and drive suggest that he can continue to be an effective center/forward until probably 35. The term is good, the cap hit itself is questionable, and IMO an over-payment.

4. Kindl doesn't play for this team anymore and doesn't get payed enough to care about where he's playing in the AHL...

5. Quincey also doesn't play for this team and doesn't get paid by this team, and when he did (the last couple of years), actually played well for the most part surprisingly.

6. Zetterberg's contract for the first 6 years was an absolute steal. He also still produces 50 points (Top 6) a season, is the Captain and bonafide leader of this team, and I have nothing else to say about this one because it's absolutely ridiculous.

7. Kronwall. Now you're smoking something. < $5 million for a top-line producing defenseman for about 5 years. LESS THAN 5 MILLION DOLLARS FOR A 40-50 POINT DEFENSEMAN. WOW.

8. I've already commented on Franzen and there isn't a single second he played during his contract that it was ever bad for the Red Wings. It still isn't since it affects the salary cap in no meaningful manner.

Abdelkader is debatable. It looked good last year.

Tootoo and Ott. Wtf? Small potatoes. Tootoo actually played really well when he was on the team. Ott has played 1 game...
- TwoPieceFeed

First of all all those contracts are what they actually are.
Second of all I talked about Quincey and kindl because Kenny did make those signings and we are talking new cap era so I can bring up any contract from when the cap era started

Yeah kronwall was great so was zetterberg and franzen, that doesn't justify giving lengthy contracts when 4 years of the contract won't be worth it. Tootoo was garbage, ott will be garbage,

Your looking at the contracts only when players are good. Now that there declining we can't do anything with them. There handcuffed contract. Your not to bright if you can justify saying a player played awesome , for 6 years of his 12 year contract. Quincey is terrible/was terrible.

Small potatoes is still part of the basket of potatoes, there still handcuff contracts.
There's very little doubt in my mind that you and me would agree on ablnything cause it seems you like long crontracts and old players and I like short contracts with youth.
I didn't realize we weren't allowed to talk about previous bad signings by holland. You pretty much proved nothing there.
Your only good point was kronwall I'll give you that.

And your point about Nielsen is just as short sided, paying that moneyand extra term length just to sign a player like Nielsen to play on a second line (when he's a third liner) to cover 1-2 years before mantha and the Russian get here is just another handcuffed contract in 3 years blocking prospects

And Kruger got 3 mill at 3 years not 3.8 at 5 years.

and in what planet does helm get a Ntc.

Anyone defending Hollands cap or asset management is clueless.

First of all all those contracts are what they actually are.
Second of all I talked about Quincey and kindl because Kenny did make those signings and we are talking new cap era so I can bring up any contract from when the cap era started

Yeah kronwall was great so was zetterberg and franzen, that doesn't justify giving lengthy contracts when 4 years of the contract won't be worth it. Tootoo was garbage, ott will be garbage,

Your looking at the contracts only when players are good. Now that there declining we can't do anything with them. There handcuffed contract. Your not to bright if you can justify saying a player played awesome , for 6 years of his 12 year contract. Quincey is terrible/was terrible.

Small potatoes is still part of the basket of potatoes, there still handcuff contracts.
There's very little doubt in my mind that you and me would agree on ablnything cause it seems you like long crontracts and old players and I like short contracts with youth.
I didn't realize we weren't allowed to talk about previous bad signings by holland. You pretty much proved nothing there.
Your only good point was kronwall I'll give you that.
- hockeyislife99

Are we talking about contracts that you think hurt the team in the past, present, or future?

Quincey and Kindl contracts did nothing to hurt the Red Wings in the past. They were more often than not worth the money they were paid.

Zetterberg is currently great. Despite "only" earning 50 points last season (and leading the team in scoring). Are we discussing the overall impact of the contracts or only specific duration? Zetterberg's contract in its entirety is beneficial to the team. Franzen's as well. Agree to disagree on Tootoo.

You claim that I'm "only looking at the contracts when the players were good". You're only looking at sections of the contracts when you think they're bad! I'm reviewing them in their entirety. Was it worth the annual value? Was it worth the term? More likely than not, yes. Not every contract signed is worth to the team what they expected. They're investments, and not every investment bears fruitful outcomes. More often than not, the extensions and pacts that Holland has signed have made positive impacts on the ice.

+/- 50% of the AAV/length sounds like a fair grading point.

Are we talking about contracts that you think hurt the team in the past, present, or future?

Quincey and Kindl contracts did nothing to hurt the Red Wings in the past. They were more often than not worth the money they were paid.

Zetterberg is currently great. Despite "only" earning 50 points last season (and leading the team in scoring). Are we discussing the overall impact of the contracts or only specific duration? Zetterberg's contract in its entirety is beneficial to the team. Franzen's as well. Agree to disagree on Tootoo.

You claim that I'm "only looking at the contracts when the players were good". You're only looking at sections of the contracts when you think they're bad! I'm reviewing them in their entirety. Was it worth the annual value? Was it worth the term? More likely than not, yes. Not every contract signed is worth to the team what they expected. They're investments, and not every investment bears fruitful outcomes. More often than not, the extensions and pacts that Holland has signed have made positive impacts on the ice.

+/- 50% of the AAV/length sounds like a fair grading point.
- TwoPieceFeed

Paying Kindl 2.4m or whatever to be a healthy scratch qualifies as a terrible deal. As a matter of fact that deal was so bad they still have retained salary counting against them this season for a guy who is in the ahl for another organization.

Paying Kindl 2.4m or whatever to be a healthy scratch qualifies as a terrible deal. As a matter of fact that deal was so bad they still have retained salary counting against them this season for a guy who is in the ahl for another organization.
- Feds91Stammer

When he actually played, he played pretty well.

For whatever reason Babcock hated Kindl.

Bad contracts on roster: abdelkader, helm, dekeyser, ericsson, kronwall, howard, nielsen, zetterberg, glendening, miller, ott, franzen