Dude...brought back a bad memory. We went to eat with a couple we are good friends with. Good people. I brought wine and he brought beer. We finally finished the wine and I was in the mood for beer like the whole time. He opens 2 beer and we drink them, but I can just tell he isn't feeling it. So what do I do? We had an agreement that we would each bring a different alcohol to share. Should I just crack open another beer myself? Ended up just throwing in the towel and not drinking anymore. We will be at their place Sunday where I will make up for my mistake
- YuenglingJagr

on the ice vs off the ice in a dark alley?
- YuenglingJagr

Dark alley, I'd obviously want Gudas and Amac

Karlsson's defensive shortcoming are overblown by some, but he is not by any means a good defensive player, in fact he slants towards the poor side of defensive play. He's phenomenal offensively and with the puck, but he's not the two way monster that Doughty is, nor was Karlsson better last year overall than Doughty was.
- MJL

Yeah, Karlsson I believe played all 82 games I believe and finished with 82 points but still ended up a minus 2 I think? I don't know what kind of minus Karlsson plays but Doughty was a plus 24 with 51 points. That's really really good for the nightly minutes Doughty plays.

Dark alley, I'd obviously want Gudas and Amac
- PhillySportsGuy

Gudas: "You go in first Andy, don't worry, I got your back"

Las Vegas Desert Knights




meh

That seems to always be the debate though. I just find it funny that it seems like historically it has become the defeneman with the most points and when a guy goes and does what Karlsson did, suddenly it is about the best defenseman in all situations? Doughty is good, but I don't think anyone could do what Karlsson did this year. It is so close that I really don't care who wins the award or anything like that...just found it interesting how it all played out
- YuenglingJagr

I don't agree with your observation on how the Norris is determined at all. Nick Lidstrom won it season after season for along time and it definitely wasn't because of his point totals alone. In fact if you look at Lidstrom's point totals, yeah they're really good but not what you might expect from a yearly winner.

Las Vegas Desert Knights




meh
- MBFlyerfan

So it avoids conflict with London (OHL) and West Point....

Hard to argue that Karlsson isn't the single biggest difference-maker at his position night in and night out, tho, even though he doesn't do everything perfectly.
- Tomahawk

I think the negatives of Karlsson are overlooked because of how dynamic he is with the puck, and offensively.

Yeah, Karlsson I believe played all 82 games I believe and finished with 82 points but still ended up a minus 2 I think? I don't know what kind of minus Karlsson plays but Doughty was a plus 24 with 51 points. That's really really good for the nightly minutes Doughty plays.
- roenick97

As a comparison, Karlssson on the ice for 84 goals against at 5 on 5 play. Doughty was on the ice for 41 goals against at 5 on 5 play.

Right now? Ugh, I guess I'd pair MDZ with Gudas.
- BiggE

I'd put MDZ and Ghost out there.

Las Vegas Desert Knights




meh
- MBFlyerfan

Las Vegas Dessert Nights

As a comparison, Karlssson on the ice for 84 goals against at 5 on 5 play. Doughty was on the ice for 41 goals against at 5 on 5 play.
- MJL

Can you provide us with a list of statistics that are ok for arguments?

I disagree. I feel that Karlsson's offensive contributions compared to Doughty outweigh his defensive shortcomings compared to Doughty. Is Drew Doughty a better "all situations" player? Yes. Would I rather have Doughty out defensively against the best competition of the other team? Yes. I won't argue that. But to me, while Karlsson isn't Scott Stevens or Nick Lidstrom, he is not (in my opinion) a poor defensive player as he once was. To me, in my opinion, he was he best defenseman in the league last year. It is subjective, and that is my view.
- jmatchett383

It's a matter of opinion, but I don't think Karlsson's offensive contributions come close to tilting the scale in his favor. Karlsson was 5th in the league in ES points scored, yet finished as a minus player. You simply can't be on the ice and have the most 5 on 5 goals scored against your team when you're on the ice, and be considered the best defenseman in the league, unless of course you want to completely ignore the defensive side of the puck. Doughty is dominant in all 3 zones of the ice.

It's a matter of opinion, but I don't think Karlsson's offensive contributions come close to tilting the scale in his favor. Karlsson was 5th in the league in ES points scored, yet finished as a minus player. You simply can't be on the ice and have the most 5 on 5 goals scored against your team when you're on the ice, and be considered the best defenseman in the league, unless of course you want to completely ignore the defensive side of the puck. Doughty is dominant in all 3 zones of the ice.
- MJL

It's a matter of opinion, but my opinion, is right. Your opinion is wrong. Looking at the facts, you can clearly see my opinion is correct. Your opinion is wrong. All you need to do is look at the facts.

As a comparison, Karlssson on the ice for 84 goals against at 5 on 5 play. Doughty was on the ice for 41 goals against at 5 on 5 play.
- MJL

Karlsson had 44 ES points and Doughty had 18

It's a matter of opinion, but my opinion, is right. Your opinion is wrong. Looking at the facts, you can clearly see my opinion is correct. Your opinion is wrong. All you need to do is look at the facts.
- Giroux_Is_God

My favorite was this one:

More observation than metrics, which should be the primary method of evaluating players, of the games I've seen Karlsson play. No player in the NHL was on the ice for more goals against at 5 on 5 play than Karlsson was. Have to look at all the factors involved there, as certainly Karlsson can't be blamed for every single goal against. Ottawa is not a good defensive team, so that certainly doesn't help him, and you could say that he's being asked to play a certain way, that is not conducive to defensive play, to try and give his team a chance to win. Even with all that said, in my opinion, I can't say he's a good defensive player, or the best defenseman in the NHL, when he's on the ice for the most goals against of any player in the entire league, at 5 on 5 play. He's certainly the best defenseman offensively, and with the puck in the league.
- MJL

I don't agree with your observation on how the Norris is determined at all. Nick Lidstrom won it season after season for along time and it definitely wasn't because of his point totals alone. In fact if you look at Lidstrom's point totals, yeah they're really good but not what you might expect from a yearly winner.
- roenick97

the "has become" part is relatively important

anyway...I also think that if Karlsson played for a team like say...the rangers...he wouldve won

My opinion is that if you are letting up more goals than you are scoring when you are on the ice, that needs to be taken in to consideration. To discount that glaring fact when talking about Karlsson is laughable.

Karlsson had 44 ES points and Doughty had 18
- YuenglingJagr

Karlsson scored 56 ES points to Doughty's 25.

the "has become" part is relatively important

anyway...I also think that if Karlsson played for a team like say...the rangers...he wouldve won
- YuenglingJagr

I think the team Karlsson plays on is certainly a factor. For one, I think the Sens as a team, are not good defensively, and I think based on watching him play, that's he's being asked to, or given the green light to play very aggressively offensively, to try and help his team overcome some of the shortcomings they have to try and win. With a more structured and stable team, I think some of his poor defensive numbers could be mitigated somewhat.

So Crouse was included in a salary dump of Bollard for a return of a 2nd and 3rd which could end up being two 3rds.

and Pirri gets 1.1 from the Rangers. Wouldn't have minded seeing the Flyers do that

So Crouse was included in a salary dump of Bollard for a return of a 2nd and 3rd which could end up being two 3rds.

and Pirri gets 1.1 from the Rangers. Wouldn't have minded seeing the Flyers do that
- nastyflyergirl

I'm surprised he signed with the Rangers based on their forward depth. Maybe they promised him a top 9 spot

My opinion is that if you are letting up more goals than you are scoring when you are on the ice, that needs to be taken in to consideration. To discount that glaring fact when talking about Karlsson is laughable.
- MBFlyerfan

My opinion is that if you put Doughty on the Senators and Karsson on the Kings things would be different.

Claude Giroux was a -8 this year, yet everyone who watches him has noticed how much more defensive responsibility and dedication to defensive play there was this year. He got Selke votes...how does that happen as a -8?

Karlsson scored 56 ES points to Doughty's 25.
- MJL

meant 5v5

So Crouse was included in a salary dump of Bollard for a return of a 2nd and 3rd which could end up being two 3rds.

and Pirri gets 1.1 from the Rangers. Wouldn't have minded seeing the Flyers do that
- nastyflyergirl

Pirri sucks, that is all