Jared Crozier: On The #1 vs Elite Centres Debate

Last year's brad richards and 2012 handzus barely qualified as nhl hockey players let alone 1c. 10 years prior perhaps..

But I agree. Habs and sens are in the same boat. Need a legit 1c not 2c that's pretending to be one to be taken seriously.

Last year's brad richards and 2012 handzus barely qualified as nhl hockey players let alone 1c. 10 years prior perhaps..

But I agree. Habs and sens are in the same boat. Need a legit 1c not 2c that's pretending to be one to be taken seriously.
- 1993_Cup_Champs

Hence

Every team has had a dominant #1C, and in many cases that 1C has been backed up by another player who could be considered another first line centre as well.

Pavelski was not drafted 7th overall. He was drafted in the 7th round.

Really good analysis, thanks!

Pavelski was not drafted 7th overall. He was drafted in the 7th round.
- vols94

ouch....

Well, in that case you bet on Ceci and + to get us Drasaitl or RNH? or Duchesne?

And you play the waiting game on Chabot instead of an elite Center.

Duchesne
Turris
Zibby
Pageau

Not bad?!

Well, in that case you bet on Ceci and + to get us Drasaitl or RNH? or Duchesne?

And you play the waiting game on Chabot instead of an elite Center.

Duchesne
Turris
Zibby
Pageau

Not bad?!
- SENSpatriot

My biggest issue with the sens is that they don't have enough up front to be taken seriously... but I think a trade like this would do it.

Sadly we'd probably need to give up more than just Ceci... would probably need to package a guy like White or Chabot + a high draft pick to go along? Seems like a lot but I almost think it's necessary...

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Lazar packaged and traded before the expansion draft next year. Not sure how many guys we'll be able to protect, but if a trade like this could land us a top C then I say do it.

We seem to have this conversation every year. Like it or not, Turris isn't a #1 centre. I don't care how you sugar coat it to try and make him one, but when he's matched up against the Crosbys, Tavares, Getzlafs, Backstroms, etc, he's getting beaten every time. Even against other marginal 1st liners. First line players should be elite. Turris would be a great second option against a more capable guy playing on the first line.

I am not sure how we acquire that great centre though. We had a gifted centre, but gave him up for pocket change. To me we are forced to play the waiting game with guys like White and Brown. I'd like to see a trade made, but it's hard to do.

Seems like everyone basically agrees that we could use a great centre. However, when we discuss trades, it doesn't really seem a priority. I think that's partly because how hard it is to acquire one, but I also think there is too much confidence in the group we have and not wanting to see a Turris/Zibby/etc moved in order to get an upgrade.

Part of me senses that if a trade was on the table where Malkin would come to Ottawa and Turris would move to Pittsburgh (other pieces involved as well) there would be fans against moving Turris.

I also still have high hopes for Zibanejad.. He's still only 23.

But here's a though. Would you package Lazar with one of Turris or Zibanejad to acquire a top end C? Would that be too much/not enough? Considering we also need to resign Zibanejad next year and then Turris in two:

Zibanejad
2015-16 $2,000,000
2016-17 $3,250,000

Turris
2013-14 $2,500,000
2014-15 $3,500,000
2015-16 $3,500,000
2016-17 $4,000,000
2017-18 $4,000,000

Well, in that case you bet on Ceci and + to get us Drasaitl or RNH? or Duchesne?

And you play the waiting game on Chabot instead of an elite Center.

Duchesne
Turris
Zibby
Pageau

Not bad?!
- SENSpatriot

not at all but you're not getting any of those players with Ceci as the centerpiece of a deal.

I also still have high hopes for Zibanejad.. He's still only 23.

But here's a though. Would you package Lazar with one of Turris or Zibanejad to acquire a top end C? Would that be too much/not enough? Considering we also need to resign Zibanejad next year and then Turris in two:

Zibanejad
2015-16 $2,000,000
2016-17 $3,250,000

Turris
2013-14 $2,500,000
2014-15 $3,500,000
2015-16 $3,500,000
2016-17 $4,000,000
2017-18 $4,000,000
- Mr_X

Not enough but close. Maybe Zibanejad, Lazar and a 2nd gets us close to a guy like Duchene

We seem to have this conversation every year. Like it or not, Turris isn't a #1 centre. I don't care how you sugar coat it to try and make him one, but when he's matched up against the Crosbys, Tavares, Getzlafs, Backstroms, etc, he's getting beaten every time. Even against other marginal 1st liners. First line players should be elite. Turris would be a great second option against a more capable guy playing on the first line.

I am not sure how we acquire that great centre though. We had a gifted centre, but gave him up for pocket change. To me we are forced to play the waiting game with guys like White and Brown. I'd like to see a trade made, but it's hard to do.

Seems like everyone basically agrees that we could use a great centre. However, when we discuss trades, it doesn't really seem a priority. I think that's partly because how hard it is to acquire one, but I also think there is too much confidence in the group we have and not wanting to see a Turris/Zibby/etc moved in order to get an upgrade.

Part of me senses that if a trade was on the table where Malkin would come to Ottawa and Turris would move to Pittsburgh (other pieces involved as well) there would be fans against moving Turris.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

The problem is, for what he earns Turris has one of the best value contracts in the league at this point, so it is hard to be upset with his production/value ratio...when you start talking elite, you start talking $6, 7, 8, 9, 10M. He is the first line centre in Ottawa, paid like a second liner, and you get what you pay for. Its the never-ending cycle that the Sens can't get out of because they haven't been in a position to pick the right pivot at the right time.

Sometimes you don't know what you have until its gone, and that is the case with Spezza. A lot of people that wanted him out because he turned the puck over a few times, and I honestly think that drove him, more than anything else, to request the trade. When you are capable of making the plays the elite players can make (which makes them elite) they think they can do it even when they can't, and that is when the mistakes happen. It happens to every player, elite or not, at some point in time....some guys get a pass on those plays, while it sticks to others, and there is no better example of the latter than how this fan base as a whole treated the most skilled forward in the franchise's history.

All Spezza did was produce at an elite level, made Greening a 17 goal scorer and Michalek a 30 goal scorer...now they are both playing in Blue and White.

not at all but you're not getting any of those players with Ceci as the centerpiece of a deal.
- DoubleDown

If Larsson was enough to get your real number 1 center (Hall), I am convince Ceci, who has more value than Larsson, would suffice at getting RNH or Dratsaitl, whom of which I wouldn't even consider. Turris is better than those two players. It would be a very dumb move IMO.

The problem is, for what he earns Turris has one of the best value contracts in the league at this point, so it is hard to be upset with his production/value ratio...when you start talking elite, you start talking $6, 7, 8, 9, 10M. He is the first line centre in Ottawa, paid like a second liner, and you get what you pay for. Its the never-ending cycle that the Sens can't get out of because they haven't been in a position to pick the right pivot at the right time.

Sometimes you don't know what you have until its gone, and that is the case with Spezza. A lot of people that wanted him out because he turned the puck over a few times, and I honestly think that drove him, more than anything else, to request the trade. When you are capable of making the plays the elite players can make (which makes them elite) they think they can do it even when they can't, and that is when the mistakes happen. It happens to every player, elite or not, at some point in time....some guys get a pass on those plays, while it sticks to others, and there is no better example of the latter than how this fan base as a whole treated the most skilled forward in the franchise's history.

All Spezza did was produce at an elite level, made Greening a 17 goal scorer and Michalek a 30 goal scorer...now they are both playing in Blue and White.
- JaredCrozier

AMEN (mic drop)

If Larsson was enough to get your real number 1 center (Hall), I am convince Ceci, who has more value than Larsson, would suffice at getting RNH or Dratsaitl, whom of which I wouldn't even consider. Turris is better than those two players. It would be a very dumb move IMO.
- PtotheY

Hall is a left wing

Roll with a heathy Turris & more experienced Zibby this season. If they miss the playoffs again, make a trade for a #1. Again, the Spezza trade set us back a couple years.

Hall is a left wing
- Symba007

And apparently Chiarelli wants to channel his inner Milbury

ouch....
- JaredCrozier

The fact that you just accepted the correction without whining, crying, name-calling or any other fanfare means that you are a rare HBer and we need never mentioned this slip-up again.

The fact that you just accepted the correction without whining, crying, name-calling or any other fanfare means that you are a rare HBer and we need never mentioned this slip-up again.
- Aetherial

Hey, I make mistakes, I don't like making them but I have always admitted/accepted/acknowledged and repaired factual slip-ups (when I have seen them). It's happened before and unfortunately will happen again.

But thanks for that!

Differences of opinion on the other hand...

What if we traded Hoffman and signed Pirri? Maybe even package Hoffman and Ceci for a #1C and average D that isn't as good as Ceci but isn't horrible either?

A couple of things strike me in this debate. When Turris came to Ottawa, it was hoped he was an elite C that just needed the right environment to develop. The beginning of last year seemed to prove that to be true. For 25 games he had posted .92 ppg. That would tie him with Joe Thornton, ahead of Toews, Stamkos, Spezza, etc. An elite centreman. That means this debate won't die until he is healthy for a season or so. And truly none of us know with certainty how it will turn out.

A second important point: to be a #1 center in this league you need to be one of the top 32. So even with Turris' slow start, he's a #1 C. Legitimately - according to math. So even if he is not better than his earlier record, we can still question if you need an elite #1 to succeed or just a #1 (some teams don't have this). Or is it just as good to have two top 30 centers instead of one top ten and a top 60 as your #2. Remember as well - lots of teams have had elite centers and not won the cup, or even gotten close.

There's no question that having quality down the middle of the ice is important, but it's worth considering that only 6 of these 16 "elite" centres have won a Cup, and the players in the bottom-half of the list account for more Cups than the players at the top of the list. Part of this is because of the blunt definition of what is regarded as "elite" production criteria. Bergeron is on your list, but had less PPG over the past 3 seasons than Hudler... not to mention Sedin and Couture. Krejci and Spezza have identical PPG output, but only 1 is categorized as "elite". I know you have to draw a line somewhere, but the arbitrary nature of that is precisely the point - points aren't the sole criteria, which means the list of premium NHL centres doesn't just stop with players like Duchene and Johansen.

As for the correlation with Cup success, I would argue that it's at least as important to have an "elite"-level defenceman on the roster. If you add names like Niedermayer, Pronger, Chara, Letang, Keith, and Doughty to the list of Cup-winning teams from the past decade, you can see just how strong a factor that is. What this really indicates is that you need a solid nucleus of 4-5 high-end players to compete at that level. The question of whether Turris can be considered "elite" is not as much of an issue as the fact that even if he is Ottawa would still only have 3 players at best playing at that level. That means with the current roster in place, a lot more will be required from players like Ryan, Hoffman, Phaneuf, and Anderson to put them into any kind of legitimate position to compete.

David Kreci won a Cup.. Him and Turris have the same number of points over the past 2 seasons.

But Can Zibby be our Bergeron ? I'm not so sure.

The problem is, for what he earns Turris has one of the best value contracts in the league at this point, so it is hard to be upset with his production/value ratio...when you start talking elite, you start talking $6, 7, 8, 9, 10M. He is the first line centre in Ottawa, paid like a second liner, and you get what you pay for. Its the never-ending cycle that the Sens can't get out of because they haven't been in a position to pick the right pivot at the right time.

Sometimes you don't know what you have until its gone, and that is the case with Spezza. A lot of people that wanted him out because he turned the puck over a few times, and I honestly think that drove him, more than anything else, to request the trade. When you are capable of making the plays the elite players can make (which makes them elite) they think they can do it even when they can't, and that is when the mistakes happen. It happens to every player, elite or not, at some point in time....some guys get a pass on those plays, while it sticks to others, and there is no better example of the latter than how this fan base as a whole treated the most skilled forward in the franchise's history.

All Spezza did was produce at an elite level, made Greening a 17 goal scorer and Michalek a 30 goal scorer...now they are both playing in Blue and White.
- JaredCrozier

Good post. Agree with everything you said.

Turris is a steal now. Agreed. But when he is up for renewal, he'll likely get a less friendly contract. Manly due to inflation of contracts. I wouldn't be surprised if he got moved closer to that time. Especially with White and Brown coming up.

I'm glad you pointed out Greening and Michalek. Elite players make mediocre players better. Spezza did that (and still does in Dallas). All the big names on your list do that. I haven't seen Turris make players better. It's almost vice versa with him with his wingers making him look better.

I know I always come across as a Turris hater, but I'm far from that. He's a great weapon, but being misused on a team that doesn't have enough resources.

The bigger question should be if Zibby can take a bigger step with his consistency to support Turris. I don't think he can be an elite guy, but I think he can be a legitimate top 6 centre, like Turris. There are times where he looks stronger than Turris, but consistency is his biggest obstacle.

While I'd like to have a true elite centre, I think it's possible to get by with 2 legitimate centres capable of 60ish points. However, this requires the roster to be stronger in other areas as well, which we all know isn't the case right now.