Chip McCleary: 3/8, Blues at Coyotes - Recap What, Blues can haz a win? That's unpossible!

-- Several posters in the GDT took offense of my criticism of Jake Allen, even going so far as to claim that I gave Halak and Elliott a free pass for their poor play. Elliott hasn't gotten a free pass; when he's made mistakes, I've said as much. Halak had a poor game vs. Los Angeles, and I said as much. However, fundamentally both guys are in position to make stops much of the time - it's then just a question of whether they do it.

Allen? Go back and look at last night's game (and really any of the 4 before that). Way too often, he's leaving a not-so-small gap at the posts, he's going way down on the butterfly and leaving the upper half of the net open, he tends to overcommit at times on the play (though it wasn't as frequent last night), ... folks, those are not "well, he's getting adjusted to the NHL" things. Those are the same things he's done throughout his AHL career - things he should have learned not to do by now. As I pointed out in one response, he's 4-1-0 and has had 18 goals scored for him in the 4 wins - but he's also given up 11 goals in those 4 W's. While winning has a way of masking mistakes he makes, can he really step up and limit his mistakes and keep the opposition off the board if the Blues offense goes back to 2 goals a game? I'd love for him to prove me wrong, but right now I see trouble down the road if this is a sign of what to (continue to) expect from him.

-- Is my position with Allen inconsistent with the ones I have about other young players on the roster? IMO, no - but again, I'm OK if others don't see it that way. Here's the difference between the two: if you're in the NHL and trying to get adjusted to the speed of the game and learning how to be in good position against much more skilled players than you've ever seen before, I expect some mistakes. If you don't know to stay against the post when the opposition has the puck to the side of the net to prevent a shot at that post, I don't know how being in the NHL vs. the AHL suddenly changes your ability to figure that out.

- Chip McCleary

Ok, but who is saying that he is the goaltending savior?

Player _______ GP GS W L OT SA GA GAA Sv Sv% SO TOI
Jaroslav Halak _10 10 5 2 1 173 20 2.31 153 .884 2 519:54
Jake Allen _____6 5 4 1 0 140 15 2.69 125 .893 0 334:48
Brian Elliott ___11 8 3 6 1 221 33 3.65 188 .851 0 542:02

If there is a guy that I am going to talk about their poor goaltending, is is going to be one guy. The other two also need to be better, but there is really only one guy that we should be focusing on to date. And his name is Elliott.

If Halak & Allen can stay healthy, Brian Elliott should not see the ice again this season for the Blues. Peoria, sure. Blues, no.

Player _______ GP GS W L OT SA GA GAA Sv Sv% SO TOI
Jaroslav Halak _10 10 5 2 1 173 20 2.31 153 .884 2 519:54
Jake Allen _____6 5 4 1 0 140 15 2.69 125 .893 0 334:48
Brian Elliott ___11 8 3 6 1 221 33 3.65 188 .851 0 542:02

If there is a guy that I am going to talk about their poor goaltending, is is going to be one guy. The other two also need to be better, but there is really only one guy that we should be focusing on to date. And his name is Elliott.

If Halak & Allen can stay healthy, Brian Elliott should not see the ice again this season for the Blues. Peoria, sure. Blues, no.
- carcus

All three SV%'s are garbage. But SMELLIOTT (that'll show em) should get a trip to Peoria to at least clear his head and see if he can find his game - McKenna starting is a waste. Carrying three goalies on the big club makes no sense... unless all three of your goalies are terrible. Which the Blues' are right now. Hmm...

All three SV%'s are garbage. But SMELLIOTT (that'll show em) should get a trip to Peoria to at least clear his head and see if he can find his game - McKenna starting is a waste. Carrying three goalies on the big club makes no sense... unless all three of your goalies are terrible. Which the Blues' are right now. Hmm...
- BerglundsGrundle

Yes, sv % for all three are bad. There is a reason for that though.

When you don't allow very many shots, but you are still giving up a good amount of scoring chances, sv % is going to be down. GAA for Halak and Allen are not that bad considering that they have not been impressive per say so far this season. With the Blues offense putting in around 3 goals/game, they still should win on most nights when they give up 20 shots a game.

Wow, the one constant theme so far here seems to be that Chip is the only sane person surrounded by a bunch of insane (and also idiotic) Blues fans.

Yes CHip, compared to the criticism you've laid on Allen, you HAVE given the other goalies a free pass. Somehow Jake Allen has landed on your sh!t list even though he has no real body of work at the pro level to pick apart. Both Halak and Elliott have had some pretty big ups and downs over the years. Yeah this has been a funky year for goalies around the league so I don't think there's any reason to think Halak wont improve on his current numbers by the time the playoffs get here. However Elliott is a career back up, had a career year last year (only in the regular season) and is currently the worst goalie in the league. In a short season with only 20 some games left, there's no time left for him. He could stop 95% of the shots in the rest of his starts and still not be able to push his season numbers over 90. That's how bad he's sucked.

But again, the strange thing isn't necessarily your lack of criticism on behalf of Elliott, it's the over the top criticism on the rookie Allen by comparison. Maybe he's got some holes in his game and he never will be a number one goalie, or maybe you're just trying to back up what you've been saying for the past few weeks. In any event, I'm sure you'll be the first to comment as soon as he has a bad outing.

Not sure that Jackman's increased ice time is any comment on Polak anymore than it is on Pietrangelo or Shattenkirk. Polak's ice time has been up over those same games you pointed out for Jackman's being up.

The Blues have a problem on the left side. Jackman is an every game type player. Redden, Russel, and Cole are not at this point. Personally. I still think Cole will be solid for the Blues when he gets some experience and regular play time. If Blues can fill their hole on the top pairing with Petro, defense should be

LHD/Petro
Cole/Shatty
Jackman/Polak

When Cole is having rough games, swap him and Jackman. When he is playing well, he has shown chemistry with Shattenkirk, and Jackman/Polak have proven to be a great shutdown pairing in the past. Trade some combination of picks/prospects/Dags/Russel for a number 2 defenseman like Bouwmeester.

Yes CHip, compared to the criticism you've laid on Allen, you HAVE given the other goalies a free pass.
- fattyboubatty

I'll just stop right there. What exactly is it that you want me to say about both Halak and Elliott that will somehow make everything better for you?

Elliott has stunk for much of this season. Period. I've said it, haven't made any bones about it. When he's been bad, I've pinned it on him. Halak was terrible vs. Los Angeles. Period. I said it, didn't pull punches about it. When Halak struggled at other times, I didn't hesitate to say as much. However, when both guys have played well or haven't been completely responsible for (insert problem here), I've said so. I try to put blame where blame is due; if you want lazy analysis like "Jackman sucks, Oshie is overrated, Hitchcock needs to go" without anything to support it, you're not going to get it here.

Now, let's move to Allen. Do I have a hate-on for Allen? No, whether he goes on to become the next great NHL goalie or whether he busts out a la Reinhard Divis is irrelevant to me. If he goes on to post as 17-4-2 record this season, fantastic. However, anyone who's taking an honest look of his play so far should see some of the same stuff I do - and it's not stuff that you can waive away as "well, he's never been in the NHL - he needs time to adjust." You wouldn't let the guy who gets called up and goes chasing around after the puck instead of playing decent positional defense get a free pass with "well, he's never been in the NHL - he needs time to adjust." Why would you suddenly do that with a goalie whose fundamentals thus far look like something you'd see from a kid on a mid-level Minnesota HS team?

I gave my assessment of his play, you apparently disagree. Fine - if you disagree, point out how I'm incorrect in viewing his technical play and positioning. Heck, just point out why goalies shouldn't be expected to do basic stuff like follow the puck well, hug the posts, or adequately look big and leave opposing shooters less room to aim for when going from the AHL to the NHL. Don't just point to his record and say, "see - that proves you're wrong," especially when his team-leading save percentage of .893 is still well under the league average SV% of .909 (1835 goals on 20165 actual shots against a goalie, which ignores the 59 empty-net goals where there was no goalie to stop the shot) and he's been the benefactor of an average 4 goals per game from the offense.

No, if you're going to rip me for giving someone a free pass, I actually would expect to be blamed for giving Cole one - but I can at least reasonably understand how Cole might need time to learn things at the NHL level that he wouldn't know at the AHL level (like positioning against stronger, faster players, or moving the puck effectively against a forecheck where the game speed is much faster). I have no explanation for how a guy who's in his 3rd year of pro hockey doesn't know to stay tight against the post when the puck comes out to the side; that's what Halak did vs. the Kings, and it's why Carter beat him from a bad angle shot just inside the near side post - because his positioning was terrible for the shot.

Wow, the one constant theme so far here seems to be that Chip is the only sane person surrounded by a bunch of insane (and also idiotic) Blues fans.

Yes CHip, compared to the criticism you've laid on Allen, you HAVE given the other goalies a free pass. Somehow Jake Allen has landed on your sh!t list even though he has no real body of work at the pro level to pick apart. Both Halak and Elliott have had some pretty big ups and downs over the years. Yeah this has been a funky year for goalies around the league so I don't think there's any reason to think Halak wont improve on his current numbers by the time the playoffs get here. However Elliott is a career back up, had a career year last year (only in the regular season) and is currently the worst goalie in the league. In a short season with only 20 some games left, there's no time left for him. He could stop 95% of the shots in the rest of his starts and still not be able to push his season numbers over 90. That's how bad he's sucked.

But again, the strange thing isn't necessarily your lack of criticism on behalf of Elliott, it's the over the top criticism on the rookie Allen by comparison. Maybe he's got some holes in his game and he never will be a number one goalie, or maybe you're just trying to back up what you've been saying for the past few weeks. In any event, I'm sure you'll be the first to comment as soon as he has a bad outing.
- fattyboubatty

Well said Fatty. Chip sometimes gets it right then is so contradictory it is amazing.

FIrst all the AHL doesn't compare in level of play to say triple AAA baseball. So baseball people need to drop that comparison. The best feeder league for the NHL not counting the pro leagues in Europe are Canadian Major Junior Hockey and the NCAA.

Chip rightly pointed out there is something wrong with the development of players coming for Peoria and then acts like there is little difference between the two when writing about Allen. I've watched AHL games. It is slower and there is less structure.

Imagine this: You are on a good sports team and you are playing a crappy team. How many times do you see good teams struggle to play to their level and not drop down to the level of the bad team? It's quite common. You want to know why? A lot of it has to do with structure and timing. When you figure a player will defend you a certain way because that pattern happens over and over and suddenly that player is coming at you in some manner you weren't expecting it's as if you are out of position. It slows a good player and team down in a sense. At the highest levels it isn't quite the same but there is a talent gap between the NHL and AHL that can be vast and affect players.

Some players look so-so in the AHL come up into the NHL and look great because they can pass to people where they should be and many other aspects.

At the NHL level the talent is so great that often what separates players is some small ability to do something a minuscule amount better. Better shot accuracy, quicker game thinking, better anticipation, better ability to handle the puck etc etc etc.... Many times I think it is a mistake to have young players down there because they often will pick up bad habits. Certainly a lot has to do with the talent on a team as well. You will also see a larger number of smaller players in the AHL. Guys who have had limited success in the NHL but rack up numbers in the AHL.

SO tell me when game after game you are facing slower, less accurate shots and the game around you moves slower that when it speeds up dramatically, more accuracy and harder shots how that isn't different?

Allen has better reflexes than either Halak and by far is quicker than Elliott. I see a couple of holes in his positioning and the goaltending coach and video coach should help straighten those out.

The BIGGEST thing I see that is different is that he is by far superior to Halak and especially Elliott is his demeanor. Softie, great goal, hard to stop what not and he's not mentally being taken out of the game. He moves on to the next save. That mental fortitude is IMPRESSIVE! He's still super young. He is a superior puck handler to the other two and believe it or not that changes the way the team in front of him plays. With Halak it is often an adventure and even more so with Elliott.

Even it out subtract this season and last season for Elliott and he's mediocre at best. Any hint of him being the man and he mentally melts down. As a fellow human I feel for him. But I wish I could make a million dollars plus for being mediocre.

So with Allen's raw talent and mental make up things look good for him. I haven't seen the Blues develop a really good NHL goalie since Cujo oh and there was my fellow high school alum Ben Bishop.

There has often been a theme with many of these Blues players and their fragile psyches. They have had to dig deep and will have to continue to mine their innards and find just what their character is made from. Players like Petro and Allen are great examples. I never see Petro get so down on himself for makng a bad play or let crapping officiating rattle him and steal his battle or focus. Yeah it hasn't always been his best year. But the ability to battle and not let crap get to you is the make up of a champion. These are the kind of things you can't buy or simulate. Look at Stewart. He has worked hard to once again become that player that so impressed us when he played in Colorado and then took it to a new level here in St. Louis. I am rarely worried about Perron. But his pass to Petro had more to do with the shortie than bad ice. It wasn't a good read to force that play at that spot on the ice.

When Schwartz gets stronger in the body and in some respects his confidence it will be fun to watch him play. He has that intestinal fortitude. He is a leader.

Craig Anderson OTT 15 22 1.49 459 .952 2 0 8 4 2 884 58:58 0 0 0
Antti Niemi SJ 18 34 1.83 521 .935 1 0 10 4 4 1112 61:48 2 0 0
Kari Lehtonen DAL 15 30 2.24 431 .930 0 0 9 3 1 801 53:26 0 0 1
Corey Crawford CHI 15 26 1.81 371 .930 2 0 11 1 3 863 57:35 2 0 0
Viktor Fasth ANA 13 25 1.98 344 .927 1 0 9 1 1 756 58:12 0 0 0
Ray Emery CHI 12 23 2.05 304 .924 0 0 10 0 0 674 56:12 0 0 0
Tuukka Rask BOS 16 34 2.09 440 .923 1 0 11 2 3 975 60:56 0 0 0
Henrik Lundqvist NYR 20 44 2.24 559 .921 0 0 11 8 1 1177 58:53 0 0 0
James Reimer TOR 13 30 2.56 381 .921 1 0 9 3 0 701 53:58 0 0 0
Ben Scrivens TOR 14 32 2.46 399 .920 2 0 6 7 0 781 55:47 2 0 0
Pekka Rinne NAS 22 46 2.15 557 .917 4 0 9 8 4 1285 58:24 2 0 1
Devan Dubnyk EDM 20 52 2.85 617 .916 0 0 6 9 4 1094 54:44 0 0 0
Ryan Miller BUF 23 62 2.82 727 .915 0 0 9 11 3 1320 57:23 2 0 0
Jimmy Howard DET 21 50 2.50 587 .915 2 0 10 7 3 1201 57:14 0 0 0
Sergei Bobrovsky CLB 15 35 2.46 401 .913 0 0 6 6 3 853 56:52 0 0 0
Cory Schneider VAN 13 32 2.52 369 .913 1 0 6 4 3 761 58:36 0 0 0
Semyon Varlamov COL 19 52 2.76 589 .912 2 0 7 9 3 1131 59:32 0 0 0
Carey Price MTL 19 45 2.33 512 .912 2 0 12 4 3 1157 60:54 0 0 0
Roberto Luongo VAN 11 24 2.19 273 .912 2 0 5 2 3 657 59:45 0 0 0
Mathieu Garon TB 10 24 2.85 272 .912 0 0 2 7 0 505 50:30 0 0 0
Niklas Backstrom MIN 17 39 2.41 438 .911 0 0 9 6 2 970 57:05 2 0 0
Braden Holtby WSH 16 43 2.87 484 .911 3 0 9 7 0 899 56:11 2 0 1
Martin Brodeur NJ 13 30 2.27 338 .911 1 0 8 2 3 794 61:05 0 0 1
Cam Ward CAR 17 44 2.84 477 .908 0 0 9 6 1 929 54:40 0 0 0
Marc-Andre Fleury PIT 17 41 2.64 432 .905 0 0 11 5 0 930 54:44 2 0 0
Evgeni Nabokov NYI 20 59 2.92 616 .904 1 0 10 7 3 1213 60:40 2 0 3
Ondrej Pavelec WPG 21 57 2.87 574 .901 0 0 9 11 1 1190 56:42 0 0 0

Looks pretty normal to me. Maybe some slight downward trends. Shoot COlumbus has two netminders with higher save percentages than the Blues goalies.

I'll just stop right there. What exactly is it that you want me to say about both Halak and Elliott that will somehow make everything better for you?

Elliott has stunk for much of this season. Period. I've said it, haven't made any bones about it. When he's been bad, I've pinned it on him. Halak was terrible vs. Los Angeles. Period. I said it, didn't pull punches about it. When Halak struggled at other times, I didn't hesitate to say as much. However, when both guys have played well or haven't been completely responsible for (insert problem here), I've said so. I try to put blame where blame is due; if you want lazy analysis like "Jackman sucks, Oshie is overrated, Hitchcock needs to go" without anything to support it, you're not going to get it here.

Now, let's move to Allen. Do I have a hate-on for Allen? No, whether he goes on to become the next great NHL goalie or whether he busts out a la Reinhard Divis is irrelevant to me. If he goes on to post as 17-4-2 record this season, fantastic. However, anyone who's taking an honest look of his play so far should see some of the same stuff I do - and it's not stuff that you can waive away as "well, he's never been in the NHL - he needs time to adjust." You wouldn't let the guy who gets called up and goes chasing around after the puck instead of playing decent positional defense get a free pass with "well, he's never been in the NHL - he needs time to adjust." Why would you suddenly do that with a goalie whose fundamentals thus far look like something you'd see from a kid on a mid-level Minnesota HS team?

I gave my assessment of his play, you apparently disagree. Fine - if you disagree, point out how I'm incorrect in viewing his technical play and positioning. Heck, just point out why goalies shouldn't be expected to do basic stuff like follow the puck well, hug the posts, or adequately look big and leave opposing shooters less room to aim for when going from the AHL to the NHL. Don't just point to his record and say, "see - that proves you're wrong," especially when his team-leading save percentage of .893 is still well under the league average SV% of .909 (1835 goals on 20165 actual shots against a goalie, which ignores the 59 empty-net goals where there was no goalie to stop the shot) and he's been the benefactor of an average 4 goals per game from the offense.

No, if you're going to rip me for giving someone a free pass, I actually would expect to be blamed for giving Cole one - but I can at least reasonably understand how Cole might need time to learn things at the NHL level that he wouldn't know at the AHL level (like positioning against stronger, faster players, or moving the puck effectively against a forecheck where the game speed is much faster). I have no explanation for how a guy who's in his 3rd year of pro hockey doesn't know to stay tight against the post when the puck comes out to the side; that's what Halak did vs. the Kings, and it's why Carter beat him from a bad angle shot just inside the near side post - because his positioning was terrible for the shot.
- Chip McCleary

Maybe be less defensive about everything and sounding so pompous about your opinions.

I will always listen and when i am wrong about something I will damn I got that wrong and give props. Grow some skin about the comments. I don't care one lick about GDT. They are idiots at Game Time period. They couldn't sniff a fart out of a dog's bum if there nose was on it and they certainly no little about hockey.

Could have something to do with the goalie coach as well. When Wamsley was here he tried to ruin a few good goaltenders. Two of them were big guys. He had them playing far too aggressive. You sure don't see Bishop over committing any longer. I would like to know what happened to all the holes in his game. B/c I watched those holes disappear over time.

Allen does the dragging the stick across the ice part of a butter fly style I have seen and played against. All day and all night I will beat those goaltenders when they do that. I will shoot the puck by their ears and score every time and only miss when I am inaccurate. I would want to see that fixed.

On the posts... Getting square to the shooter. I see him leave the post a bit too soon yes. Datysuk scoring on that one shot is no where near as bad as it might look for a goaltender. He made a great deek and let me tell you banking it off the goaltender is not as easy as it looks. Off the skate is far easier. For some reason if you hit pads wrong the puck flops just wide or dies where you hit them. It doesn't matter how hard you shoot either. I am speaking from experience having done this.

I didn't see goal against Phoenix that was all that bad for Allen. The first was close but was more a lucky bounce than anything. The second where Jackman actually hit the tape of a player's stick but once again the oppositions was a rocket one timer at close range and well placed. The only way someone stops that is they throw their glove up and get lucky or the shot hits them. The third goal had eyes and Allen didn't. Now I am less forgiving when you give up even those three goals if you are down or it ties the game or makes it close with a bunch of time left. Then I am thinking you aren't battling well. That kid did. He had to make some good saves to keep the game close. He did. Heck honestly your save percentage can be crap as long as you are making timely saves.

Holy sh!t I feel like I've just read a novel. Good points guru, you got me thinking about some things that hadn't crossed my mind. And I'll reiterate a good point, if you feel that strongly about your opinions, and you're going to have so many of them, you have to at least keep them consistent. It was strange to get on here after a Blues win in which goaltending was not an issue and see a string of negative comments about Jake Allen. Especially considering that a few weeks ago after it became obvious to most fans that goaltending was an issue and this was not Brian Elliotts year, there was not a word from Chip about fundamentals or poor positioning.

I give up on trying to predict how good a goalie will be. Last year I was thinking the same things Chip was, only about Ben Bishop. His positioning was a little off, he tended to go down early, he was getting beat up high, ect. Now look at him. All you can really go by is raw skills and talent. Does he handle the puck well? Does he have a good glove? Lateral movement? Quickness? Allen has the raw talent, it's just a matter of will he be bale to adjust to the NHL game and will he have the mental toughness to be a number one.

Not sure that Jackman's increased ice time is any comment on Polak anymore than it is on Pietrangelo or Shattenkirk. Polak's ice time has been up over those same games you pointed out for Jackman's being up.

The Blues have a problem on the left side. Jackman is an every game type player. Redden, Russel, and Cole are not at this point. Personally. I still think Cole will be solid for the Blues when he gets some experience and regular play time. If Blues can fill their hole on the top pairing with Petro, defense should be

LHD/Petro
Cole/Shatty
Jackman/Polak

When Cole is having rough games, swap him and Jackman. When he is playing well, he has shown chemistry with Shattenkirk, and Jackman/Polak have proven to be a great shutdown pairing in the past. Trade some combination of picks/prospects/Dags/Russel for a number 2 defenseman like Bouwmeester.
- Antilles

I agree with this 100%. A few days ago I was all for trading Stewart for Jay Bo. Now with the way that line is playing, it would be pretty hard to deal any of those guys. Something has to be done though, because they're not going to find an answer to the left side internally. Even if they had a guy coming up that could fill a top 4 role, they've already got 3 top guys under the age of 24. Jackman should not be involved in the long term plans for the top 4. They need to bring in a veteran and if that guy is a top 2 still in his prime years, the price will be steep.