Tim Panaccio: Holmgren, Lilja Disagree on Recovery

I'd do

Kimmo-Schenn
Coburn-MAB
Grossman-Gus/Gervais

Bourdon was playing 2nd line minutes for a couple games before he went down and was doing well. If Carle was covering for him, Coburn could do the same.

I'd like them to Sign Carliocavo (spelling?) Simply for insurance purposes and if he gets hurt, well fine but at least it will take some temp pressure off of the other D for as long as he can be healthy. We have plenty of bodies but not a lot of overly talented experienced ones. But let's face it, J-Bo, Carly, Rozival, etc. nobody is going to be able to take over for Pronger or Kimmo as our Star D-man. I don't think giving up potential star forwards right now for J-Bo, Kaberle, someone similiar is not worth it.

Tim Panaccio: Holmgren, Lilja Disagree on Recovery
- tpanaccio

I'm concern about the top six, but it's not atrocious.

I think Gervais is in the top 6, rather than 7th.

I'd probably go

Timonen-Schenn
Gustafsson-Coburn
Gervais-Grossmann
MAB

I also think if they make a move it will be to replace Meszaros. Lilja was the 7th guy, his loss is more "Jesus, not another guy" than "Holy crap we need that bastard to have success"

I'm concern about the top six, but it's not atrocious.

I think Gervais is in the top 6, rather than 7th.

I'd probably go

Timonen-Schenn
Gustafsson-Coburn
Gervais-Grossmann
MAB

I also think if they make a move it will be to replace Meszaros. Lilja was the 7th guy, his loss is more "Jesus, not another guy" than "Holy crap we need that bastard to have success"
- Jsaquella

Agreed on Gervais, but I think MAB will get the start before Gus. For 2 reasons. One will be the ability to slid Gus to the minor and back and the other is that I think that Lavy really likes Bourdon and might give him the nod over Gus. Either way I do see Homer making a trade for J-bo or someone similiar or more likely signing Carliocavo or Rozinval to a one or two year deal.

Tim Panaccio: Holmgren, Lilja Disagree on Recovery
- tpanaccio

Are memories really this short? Pre-Pronger, this team was ripping off 40+ wins seasons with guys like Randy Jones and Lasse Kukkonen logging top-4 minutes, and they made it to the Cup Final w/ a 3rd-pair of Krajicek/Parent. This past season, they cobbled together 47 wins with Gus, MAB and Marshall seeing regular time. This iteration of the Flyers defense is not exactly the thinnest we've seen since Homer's taken over... get a grip.

Tim Panaccio: Holmgren, Lilja Disagree on Recovery
- tpanaccio

all signs point to a similar season like 06-07, which hopefully results in a General manager being removed and a head coach being fired by Christmas and a dismantling of the core at the trade deadline

Are memories really this short? Pre-Pronger, this team was ripping off 40+ wins seasons with guys like Randy Jones and Lasse Kukkonen logging top-4 minutes, and they made it to the Cup Final w/ a 3rd-pair of Krajicek/Parent. This past season, they cobbled together 47 wins with Gus, MAB and Marshall seeing regular time. This iteration of the Flyers defense is not exactly the thinnest we've seen since Homer's taken over... get a grip.
- Tomahawk

Logic. See where that gets you

Are memories really this short? Pre-Pronger, this team was ripping off 40+ wins seasons with guys like Randy Jones and Lasse Kukkonen logging top-4 minutes, and they made it to the Cup Final w/ a 3rd-pair of Krajicek/Parent. This past season, they cobbled together 47 wins with Gus, MAB and Marshall seeing regular time. This iteration of the Flyers defense is not exactly the thinnest we've seen since Homer's taken over... get a grip.
- Tomahawk

I completely agree... Good post.

While it could definitely be better with the addition of Suter or Weber, fact is it didn't happen. But it's not all that bad. I really think we're going to see more all around from Schenn then we ever did from Carle, and as long as Timonen and Grossmann hold up physically, I think they'll be OK. Gus has proven that he can play smart, and not be a major liability. Gervais will be a nice, seasoned addition, and MaB has time up, so he knows what to expect should he win out a spot.

However, one thing I WOULDN'T do is be hasty and run out and trade for JBo, like is being discussed. He's a bust, he's a $6.7mil cap hit, and you'd have to give up something in return, which gets you nowhere. If anything at all, I'd like to see them sign Coliacavo, despite his injuries. He's still pretty solid, and could give you some big play.

But they just don't need to do anything drastic, in my opinion. Sometimes the best move, is no move at all.

Are memories really this short? Pre-Pronger, this team was ripping off 40+ wins seasons with guys like Randy Jones and Lasse Kukkonen logging top-4 minutes, and they made it to the Cup Final w/ a 3rd-pair of Krajicek/Parent. This past season, they cobbled together 47 wins with Gus, MAB and Marshall seeing regular time. This iteration of the Flyers defense is not exactly the thinnest we've seen since Homer's taken over... get a grip.
- Tomahawk

Understand but some of us are tiring of them ripping 40 plus win seasons without deep playoff runs. Let's not forget that Pronger was playing close to 30 minutes a game and a younger Kimmo was over 26 minutes during the run. The top 2 on this team are not as strong. I think anyone who questions this team's defensive group is realistically analyzing its obvious shortcomings and doesn't necessarily need to get a grip.

Understand but some of us are tiring of them ripping 40 plus win seasons without deep playoff runs. Let's not forget that Pronger was playing close to 30 minutes a game and a younger Kimmo was over 26 minutes during the run. The top 2 on this team are not as strong. I think anyone who questions this team's defensive group is realistically analyzing its obvious shortcomings and doesn't necessarily need to get a grip.
- 2731color

Problem is - What can you do? Homer has tried to sign Weber, has offered Suter, frankly just couldn't (and rightfully so) compete with what Tampa offered Carle.... Wideman arguably got overpaid... Other than a trade, or sign a washed-up UFA, there isn't much that can be done. Homer is trying, so I can't blame him really... But it's tough if either the player doesn't want to come here, or they just get outbid.

And I wouldn't go the washed up vet route, since they've had that failed experiment the last few years with O'Donnel, Kubina, Lilja, etc. And a trade really doesn't make much sense, because most teams are looking for either Schenn, Couturier, or both in a deal for a solid dman... and if that's done, then the offense will be struggling to score goals and they'll be losing games 1-0, 2-1, etc.

I'm with you in wishing something more could be done... but short of one of the beat up UFA's left, I don't think there are going to be many practical options this season... again... :/

And even if they would by some chance offer sheet DelZotto or Carlson... they're going to get matched by the team, easily. So that would be fruitless as well..

Understand but some of us are tiring of them ripping 40 plus win seasons without deep playoff runs. Let's not forget that Pronger was playing close to 30 minutes a game and a younger Kimmo was over 26 minutes during the run. The top 2 on this team are not as strong. I think anyone who questions this team's defensive group is realistically analyzing its obvious shortcomings and doesn't necessarily need to get a grip.
- 2731color

Pronger wasn't on the team during one of their deepest playoff runs of recent vintage, in 2008. In fact, even with the injuries to Meszaros and Lilja, the current top six is as good, if not better than the 2008 group.

I think anyone that thinks Holmgren won't address the defense before too much longer is ignoring his track record.

Pronger wasn't on the team during one of their deepest playoff runs of recent vintage, in 2008. In fact, even with the injuries to Meszaros and Lilja, the current top six is as good, if not better than the 2008 group.

I think anyone that thinks Holmgren won't address the defense before too much longer is ignoring his track record.
- Jsaquella

I just hope he isn't too desperate, and pulls "Bryzgalov 2.0".. He's been doing an incredible job the last couple years, in my opinion... don't go backwards by locking into a bust, or giving up some good young forwards for a mediocre dman...

I just hope he isn't too desperate, and pulls "Bryzgalov 2.0".. He's been doing an incredible job the last couple years, in my opinion... don't go backwards by locking into a bust, or giving up some good young forwards for a mediocre dman...
- WarriorHockey21

Too early to call Bryzgalov a bust, but I agree. Don't make a bad trade out of desperation.

Look at the Devils' defense. Their defense last year. Salvador. Zdlicky. Greene. Fayne. Volchenkov. Those are the five guys that saw the most ice time during last year's Finals run. The key is better play as a team to make the whole greater than the sum of it's parts.

Problem is - What can you do? Homer has tried to sign Weber, has offered Suter, frankly just couldn't (and rightfully so) compete with what Tampa offered Carle.... Wideman arguably got overpaid... Other than a trade, or sign a washed-up UFA, there isn't much that can be done. Homer is trying, so I can't blame him really... But it's tough if either the player doesn't want to come here, or they just get outbid.

And I wouldn't go the washed up vet route, since they've had that failed experiment the last few years with O'Donnel, Kubina, Lilja, etc. And a trade really doesn't make much sense, because most teams are looking for either Schenn, Couturier, or both in a deal for a solid dman... and if that's done, then the offense will be struggling to score goals and they'll be losing games 1-0, 2-1, etc.

I'm with you in wishing something more could be done... but short of one of the beat up UFA's left, I don't think there are going to be many practical options this season... again... :/

And even if they would by some chance offer sheet DelZotto or Carlson... they're going to get matched by the team, easily. So that would be fruitless as well..
- WarriorHockey21

Agree options are limited. Won't trade Coots for anything but would consider Schenn if the deal is good. I'm not blaming Homer, except that he has a choice to perhaps overpay now or sit back this May, with his fine young team briming with potential and Cap space. (from the press box). It gauls me to say it but it looks like we might lose another boatload of games to the Rangers during the regular season.

Pronger wasn't on the team during one of their deepest playoff runs of recent vintage, in 2008. In fact, even with the injuries to Meszaros and Lilja, the current top six is as good, if not better than the 2008 group.

I think anyone that thinks Holmgren won't address the defense before too much longer is ignoring his track record.
- Jsaquella

I hear you. Also, I remember 2008, they lost in the semis. Don't think they had a serious shot at the Cup but I loved them becasue it was a comeback year. I remember 2004, which could have won the cup with a break or 2. A patchwork defense because of injuries. Malakov was playing 30. To this day I say that if Clarke hadn't traded Eric Weinrich, he might have been the difference. Have nothing against Homer and certainly appreciate his record. Comparing defense teams year by year only takes me so far because it doesn't account for the differences in the rest of the team or the competiotion. I expect, Kimmo and Grossman will miss significant games with injuries and it will force too much on everyone else. They're lacking in the top 2 and there is no quality depth in the back end.

Too early to call Bryzgalov a bust, but I agree. Don't make a bad trade out of desperation.

Look at the Devils' defense. Their defense last year. Salvador. Zdlicky. Greene. Fayne. Volchenkov. Those are the five guys that saw the most ice time during last year's Finals run. The key is better play as a team to make the whole greater than the sum of it's parts.
- Jsaquella

Very true, and I completely agree with you. I would rather have a defense that plays well together and cohesively than one with a huge name or two, but sucks overall. That's why I think Pinach might be overreacting a little as of now, in respect to the current makeup of the D. I mean, it could be worse... I'm "comfortable" with it right now (obviously it doesn't matter much how I feel though.. lol)

Agree options are limited. Won't trade Coots for anything but would consider Schenn if the deal is good. I'm not blaming Homer, except that he has a choice to perhaps overpay now or sit back this May, with his fine young team briming with potential and Cap space. (from the press box). It gauls me to say it but it looks like we might lose another boatload of games to the Rangers during the regular season.
- 2731color

I hope not.. lol Last season was depressing against them..

I hear you. Also, I remember 2008, they lost in the semis. Don't think they had a serious shot at the Cup but I loved them becasue it was a comeback year. I remember 2004, which could have won the cup with a break or 2. A patchwork defense because of injuries. Malakov was playing 30. To this day I say that if Clarke hadn't traded Eric Weinrich, he might have been the difference. Have nothing against Homer and certainly appreciate his record. Comparing defense teams year by year only takes me so far because it doesn't account for the differences in the rest of the team or the competiotion. I expect, Kimmo and Grossman will miss significant games with injuries and it will force too much on everyone else. They're lacking in the top 2 and there is no quality depth in the back end.
- 2731color

If the make-up of the team is a factor, then it's not vital to really upgrade the defense. This team is built around young players that are still growing, for the most part.

The average age among the 13 forwards I expect to see significant time this year is 25. That includes the 34 year old Danny Briere and the 33 year old Ruslan Fedotenko. Removed those two and it drops to 23 years of age. The average age of the defense is 26, and that includes 37 year old Timonen.


Given that, it's looking like a bit of a retooling year, or the next step in a retooling, where younger players take another step forward.

If the make-up of the team is a factor, then it's not vital to really upgrade the defense. This team is built around young players that are still growing, for the most part.

The average age among the 13 forwards I expect to see significant time this year is 25. That includes the 34 year old Danny Briere and the 33 year old Ruslan Fedotenko. Removed those two and it drops to 23 years of age. The average age of the defense is 26, and that includes 37 year old Timonen.


Given that, it's looking like a bit of a retooling year, or the next step in a retooling, where younger players take another step forward.
- Jsaquella

I just hate the idea of anther year without a realistic Cup shot. I love watching the young guys develop but as I've been constantly whining, I've been waiting for a Cup since 1975. And when I hear retooling (not a criticism of you), it's just another name for an excuse.

I just hate the idea of anther year without a realistic Cup shot. I love watching the young guys develop but as I've been constantly whining, I've been waiting for a Cup since 1975. And when I hear retooling (not a criticism of you), it's just another name for an excuse.
- 2731color

It's not an excuse, it's a reality. The Flyers relied heavily on rookies last year. They will now be relying on a lot of second year guys, and other guys who are all under 25 years of age. When you rely on young guys, the key is to grow those young guys and nurture them into a championship team.

I've been waiting for a Cup, too. But at the same time, there's no one defenseman who is available that can come in here and change the team enough to make them a "serious" contender. But who felt that the Devils would be serious contenders last year?

Tim Panaccio: Holmgren, Lilja Disagree on Recovery
- tpanaccio

I may have this wrong, but wasn't there some sort of deal last lockout whereby guys on the LTIR received salaries, either through the teams or through insurance?

I can't recall the exact details, but my spidey sense is tingling.

Which may explain why so many guys are insisting they won't be out of wheelchairs until November/December.

I may have this wrong, but wasn't there some sort of deal last lockout whereby guys on the LTIR received salaries, either through the teams or through insurance?

I can't recall the exact details, but my spidey sense is tingling.

Which may explain why so many guys are insisting they won't be out of wheelchairs until November/December.
- Atomic Wedgie

Yep, anyone who is on IR with a hockey related injury gets paid.

Yep, anyone who is on IR with a hockey related injury gets paid.
- Jsaquella

Well then, that pretty much explains everything, doesn't it?

Good to talk to you again, Jsaq.

Are memories really this short? Pre-Pronger, this team was ripping off 40+ wins seasons with guys like Randy Jones and Lasse Kukkonen logging top-4 minutes, and they made it to the Cup Final w/ a 3rd-pair of Krajicek/Parent. This past season, they cobbled together 47 wins with Gus, MAB and Marshall seeing regular time. This iteration of the Flyers defense is not exactly the thinnest we've seen since Homer's taken over... get a grip.
- Tomahawk

I agree, but Kimmo was a lot younger then and a lot less beat up. I'm not saying we should be chicken little and trade the whole team. But I do see the prudence in adding another short term guy for the second pairing. For the simple fact that just cause half our team is already injured, doesn't give the rest a pass on the injury bug for the rest of the year. Especially as Pronger and Meszaros aren't coming back anytime soon.

I just hate the idea of anther year without a realistic Cup shot. I love watching the young guys develop but as I've been constantly whining, I've been waiting for a Cup since 1975. And when I hear retooling (not a criticism of you), it's just another name for an excuse.
- 2731color

I don't know, our last Cup run was very unexpected. We got in on the last day in a shootout against the Rangers with our Backup Goalie. Look at the Kings & Devils, anyone pick them as having realistic Cup shots at the beginning of the playoffs? Teams get into the playoffs they get hot and they win. I don't see us as any different, as long as we make the playoffs, preferably playing well.