not necessarily...

Burkie likes Frattin.
- Big_Lightnin

I'm not referring to what Burke would do, but what he should do.

I'm not referring to what Burke would do, but what he should do.
- 1979AD

Not sure I'd trade either of those pieces for Bernier, who's shown nothing to suggest he's better than what we have.

Not sure I'd trade either of those pieces for Bernier, who's shown nothing to suggest he's better than what we have.
- Feeling Glucky?

And what have those pieces shown? The same nothing. When you're looking for an elite goalie with the potential to be a career Leaf, you need to throw a lot of poop at the wall to see what sticks. Finding a gritty 20-25 goal winger is a lot easier to find and a lot less valuable than an elite goaltender.

And what have those pieces shown? The same nothing. When you're looking for an elite goalie with the potential to be a career Leaf, you need to throw a lot of poop at the wall to see what sticks. Finding a gritty 20-25 goal winger is a lot easier to find and a lot less valuable than an elite goaltender.
- 1979AD

Which elite goaltender are we talking about here?

Reimer and Scrivens are just as "elite" as Bernier, who put up the same numbers on a far more defensive team. Probably wouldn't have hit .900 playing under Wilson.

Which elite goaltender are we talking about here?

Reimer and Scrivens are just as "elite" as Bernier, who put up the same numbers on a far more defensive team. Probably wouldn't have hit .900 playing under Wilson.
- Feeling Glucky?

Obviously there are no elite players involved in this speculation. I shouldn't have assumed you would figure that out on your own. What I'm talking about is the possibility of trading a player with more potential to be an elite player at a much more valuable position for a player with less potential at a less valuable position.

Reimer, Scrivens, Bernier could all become elite goalies or all could not. My point is the Leafs need to find an elite goaltender so bad they need to throw as much poop against the wall as possible.

Obviously there are no elite players involved in this speculation. I shouldn't have assumed you would figure that out on your own. What I'm talking about is the possibility of trading a player with more potential to be an elite player at a much more valuable position for a player with less potential at a less valuable position.
- 1979AD

Why does Bernier have elite potential?

How does he have more elite potential than a potential lottery pick?

Next year's draft is filled with top center prospects... Those arent exactly easy to acquire.

Why does Bernier have elite potential?

How does he have more elite potential than a potential lottery pick?

Next year's draft is filled with top center prospects... Those arent exactly easy to acquire.
- Feeling Glucky?

Because for the most part goalies are such a question mark and take so long to develop when compared to skaters, that when a goalies is taken high first round, he's generally regarded to have elite potential.

Because for the most part goalies are such a question mark and take so long to develop when compared to skaters, that when a goalies is taken high first round, he's generally regarded to have elite potential.
- 1979AD

And when he does nothing to earn that draft position after the fact?

And when he does nothing to earn that draft position after the fact?
- Feeling Glucky?

Then you lost a gamble. A relatively small gamble because Frattin could very well become nothing too. At least you're trying.

Then you lost a gamble. A relatively small gamble because Frattin could very well become nothing too. At least you're trying.
- 1979AD

And the lottery pick?

Then you lost a gamble. A relatively small gamble because Frattin could very well become nothing too. At least you're trying.
- 1979AD

If there's a first involved - non-starter. After that equation is how much of an upgrade do you think Bernier is over our two (hard to be confident that it's a big upgrade) vs what do you see as Frattin's upside.

On balance, I say no thanks.

Yes Mike, it would be a mistake. Jonathan Bernier has proved nothing. Shipping off a player like Frattin who is one of the best skaters on the team and obviously has some skill with the puck, for a goalie who hasn't proved anything would be a bad move. What is the use of replacing one inexperienced goalie with another, and losing a solid player?

I happen to think James Reimer and Ben Scrivens will be a great goaltending tandem. It was James Reimer who said once that he thought Scrivens was a better technical goaltender than he was, or something to the same effect. They are both good goaltenders, and I think they will do a good job for the Leafs this year.

And the lottery pick?
- Feeling Glucky?

What lottery pick? I've been saying the rumoured Frattin + 3rd is a good deal, but the rumoured Frattin + 1st is not.

Yes Mike, it would be a mistake. Jonathan Bernier has proved nothing. Shipping off a player like Frattin who is one of the best skaters on the team and obviously has some skill with the puck, for a goalie who hasn't proved anything would be a bad move. What is the use of replacing one inexperienced goalie with another, and losing a solid player?

I happen to think James Reimer and Ben Scrivens will be a great goaltending tandem. It was James Reimer who said once that he thought Scrivens was a better technical goaltender than he was, or something to the same effect. They are both good goaltenders, and I think they will do a good job for the Leafs this year.
- JoshFriesen

When did Frattin prove himself to be a solid player? I must be missing something.

When did Frattin prove himself to be a solid player? I must be missing something.
- 1979AD

Well for one, he had a decent rookie season. Nothing to shout from the rooftops about, but he held his own, showed that he could play with men, and he proved he had a lot of upside. His skating is incredible. He's a beast when it comes to the lower body workouts. Also, as a Marlie he netted 14 goals and 18 points in 23 games.

He is a solid player, and if you don't believe that, then why would Burke, as Mike said in his blog, prefer to move MacArthur who has had consecutive 20 goal seasons. And no it's not his contract. His pay isn't that bad, he's proven he can play under pressure in Toronto, and Toronto has cap space. It's because they see more upside in Frattin, than MacArthur.

I watch a lot of Leaf games and you could see by watching Frattin that he is going to be good. He is a solid player.

Also, why would Dean Lombardi single Matt Frattin out, amongst all of the players in Toronto's roster whom he could reasonably mention in trade talk, and amongst all of the prospects he could ask for......if he wasn't special.

Well for one, he had a decent rookie season. Nothing to shout from the rooftops about, but he held his own, showed that he could play with men, and he proved he had a lot of upside. His skating is incredible. He's a beast when it comes to the lower body workouts. Also, as a Marlie he netted 14 goals and 18 points in 23 games.

He is a solid player, and if you don't believe that, then why would Burke, as Mike said in his blog, prefer to move MacArthur who has had consecutive 20 goal seasons. And no it's not his contract. His pay isn't that bad, he's proven he can play under pressure in Toronto, and Toronto has cap space. It's because they see more upside in Frattin, than MacArthur.

I watch a lot of Leaf games and you could see by watching Frattin that he is going to be good. He is a solid player.

Also, why would Dean Lombardi single Matt Frattin out, amongst all of the players in Toronto's roster whom he could reasonably mention in trade talk, and amongst all of the prospects he could ask for......if he wasn't special.
- JoshFriesen

At 24 years old you don't need to prove you're capable of playing with men because you are a man.

If you're going to use AHL stats to support this argument, you might want to look at Bernier's 2.03GAA/.936 SV%/ 9 SO season for Manchester.

Finally, you contradicted yourself: "I watch a lot of Leaf games and you could see by watching Frattin that he is going to be good. He is a solid player." Is he going to be good or is he already good?

Don't get me wrong, I like Fratino's game, but if I can move him for a potential stud goalie, I do it in a heartbeat.

People are really over-valuing Frattin here, IMO.

People are really over-valuing Frattin here, IMO.
- deerow84

And Bernier. Barely over 900 on one of the most defensive teams in the league.

Then you lost a gamble. A relatively small gamble because Frattin could very well become nothing too. At least you're trying.
- 1979AD

Fair enough, however it's still not wise to trade something we don't have a lot of(offensive powerforward prospects) for something we already have a lot of.

If Bernier was undoubtably better than what we had, it'd be worth it... But right now, it really isn't.

And Bernier. Barely over 900 on one of the most defensive teams in the league.
- Feeling Glucky?

Well fair enough. People acting like he's a legit starting keeper that will vault us up the standings are out to lunch as well. Still, I'd rather have Bernier in net than Frattin probably playing for the Marlies again this year, maybe playing some games on the 3rd line once some injuries pile up or we trade some bodies.

Fair enough, however it's still not wise to trade something we don't have a lot of(offensive powerforward prospects) for something we already have a lot of.

If Bernier was undoubtably better than what we had, it'd be worth it... But right now, it really isn't.
- Feeling Glucky?

If JVR isn't moved to centre, and MacArthur isn't moved, where's does Frattin fit?

If JVR isn't moved to centre, and MacArthur isn't moved, where's does Frattin fit?
- 1979AD

Depends how he plays in camp?

Could fit in above MacArthur, could wind up on the 3rd line with Kulemin.

Could bump MacA down to the 3rd.

Reimer and Scrivens are a better bet than a backup from LA

Reimer and Scrivens are a better bet than a backup from LA
- puck-off

Agreed.

Here's the deal you make ... Scrivens and a 2 or 3 round pick for Bernier ... Kings will need a backup to Quick .. It says here that Reimer has the disposition/attitude to play in the Crazyassz Toronto market .. The outside pressures of the stupid media and ppl that THINK they know hockey will not have adverse effects on Reimer cause he has his head on straight and realizes its a game .. Bernier / Reimer tandem will push each other to be better

Ya Baby