nobody associated with the NHL on an NHL contract gets paid when there is no hockey - ie coaches, management, trainers etc. They are all contractual.

and yes, teams were losing that much money - the numbers in the Forbes list are AFTER revenue sharing is included, so when it says Phoenix loses $24.4M, deduct another $15M or so for their revenue sharing they receive from the Leafs....er League...
- Big_Lightnin

They also lose this revenue sharing during a lock-out.

I'll bet that during a lock-out, these teams' revenues drop by an amount almost equal to costs.

I'd be curious to look at a balance sheet/income statement and see.

Still you have to believe that teams in the bottom 10 are sick of losing the players they drafted to big market teams, and if this were something they could do to keep those players then would it not make them want to be a part of it. Think of edmonton in the next 3-4 years. What is happening with Columbus now?
- eihcnerf

The reason why the smaller market teams are losing their stars is because they can become UFAs very early depending on how many games they have played.

The players love the idea of being UFAs as soon as possible but if the owners found something of value they could trade with the NHLPA, maybe they could adjust the UFA age and force all players to remain with the team that drafted them until they are 28 to 30.

The one nice thing about the franchise tag in the NFL is that if you put on a player, they are forced to stay with the team at an increased salary. That would eliminate the trade deadline, pending UFA dilemma that Nashville and New Jersey had with Suter and Parise. If they had a franchise tag, they could make their playoff run and then use the franchise tag to retain their star player for another year and trade him the next year. In this manner, the franchise wouldn't be walking away empty handed.

Another interesting option would be to take something from the way MLB handles it's UFA situation which is giving teams compensatory draft picks for the players they lose to free agency. Maybe the NHL could give teams draft picks for players they lose under the age of 30.

Lots of different possibilities.

There isn't really a great economic case for folding a team.

It's much more likely the league would assume the team, and then sell it off.

Why get nothing, when you can get $2?

Sure, you could maybe fold it, and then sell of a new franchise fee, but I don't see that working in this economic climate - unless you are selling for a new franchise in the GTA, and the league could always just charge a relocation fee anyways (not that the Leafs would ever allow it).
- Atomic Wedgie

I'll bet RIM is saying the same thing. Sometimes, the market just kicks you out.

I'll bet RIM is saying the same thing. Sometimes, the market just kicks you out.
- Leeman4Gilmour

You know, my buddy just applied with them. He said getting a RIM job would be a dream come true.

So, what what this boils down to is not really about whether or not these teams can survive past a lock-out, but whether or not they can survive, lock-out or not, favorable economic model or not.

I'll bet no less than 3 teams will have relocated/folded by 2015.
- Leeman4Gilmour

Good, best case scenario.

The reason why the smaller market teams are losing their stars is because they can become UFAs very early depending on how many games they have played.

The players love the idea of being UFAs as soon as possible but if the owners found something of value they could trade with the NHLPA, maybe they could adjust the UFA age and force all players to remain with the team that drafted them until they are 28 to 30.

The one nice thing about the franchise tag in the NFL is that if you put on a player, they are forced to stay with the team at an increased salary. That would eliminate the trade deadline, pending UFA dilemma that Nashville and New Jersey had with Suter and Parise. If they had a franchise tag, they could make their playoff run and then use the franchise tag to retain their star player for another year and trade him the next year. In this manner, the franchise wouldn't be walking away empty handed.

Another interesting option would be to take something from the way MLB handles it's UFA situation which is giving teams compensatory draft picks for the players they lose to free agency. Maybe the NHL could give teams draft picks for players they lose under the age of 30.

Lots of different possibilities.
- Two_For_Truth

Yeah, i like either of these possibilities only it should be 26 not 28 or 29, too long, but it gives a player say his ELC and another 3 years guaranteed anyways in a specific team. Add in bonuses and a play could still do very well on the 2nd contract even if they are RFA's and dont make it to UFA status, meh, food for thought i guess?

They also lose this revenue sharing during a lock-out.

I'll bet that during a lock-out, these teams' revenues drop by an amount almost equal to costs.

I'd be curious to look at a balance sheet/income statement and see.
- Leeman4Gilmour

Never mind, solved it. 2009 income statement for the Coyotes.

http://assets.sbnation.co...46/coyotes-financials.jpg

If this information is correct, they're not much better off during a lock-out.

They shed about 58 million in revenue (maybe a little less). They shed around 65 in expenses by my estimates.

EDIT: Let's not forget that Phoenix has a VERY favorable lease deal on the arena (aka. "free"), a luxury that not every struggling franchise enjoys.

The salary cap and the revenue sharing isn't what screwed things up. It was the fact that the players are getting 57% of the revenue and the revenue skyrocketed. I don't think anybody expected the NHL to come back as hard and as strong as it has. If they adjust the percentage of revenue the players get, they adjust the cap floor and the cap ceiling and fix what is throwing half of the league out of whack.

I think they could also benefit from a system that allows teams to go over the salary cap ceiling by a maximum of 10% and force offending teams to pay a dollar for dollar (or more) luxury tax with that money going to revenue sharing.
- Two_For_Truth

Sort of true -- the problem is that the skyrocketing (?) revenues was driven by a few teams that made lots of money while many lost money. More and more teams are having trouble with a floor that is being driven up by big profits being made by LEafs, Habs and NYR.

There is no real revenue sharing and the owners will try to solve the problems by reducing the % that goes to players.

It will be really interesting to see what MLSE does this time. They were good boys and kept their mouths shut last time round. Now that TSN/Rogers loses big time from a shut down, they may put more pressure on Gary

I'll bet RIM is saying the same thing. Sometimes, the market just kicks you out.
- Leeman4Gilmour

RIM lost sight of its own progression, and the marketplace, so busy with pumping out mediocre products at an alarming rate, with very little changes or adapting to what everyone else was doing with their phones, that they lost sight of what their customers were actually looking for from them and what new innovative ideas that other smartphones were offering, that they got lost in the translation and haven't been able to keep up to the leading edge companies such as Apple and Samsung.

Yeah, i like either of these possibilities only it should be 26 not 28 or 29, too long, but it gives a player say his ELC and another 3 years guaranteed anyways in a specific team. Add in bonuses and a play could still do very well on the 2nd contract even if they are RFA's and dont make it to UFA status, meh, food for thought i guess?
- eihcnerf

Well Parise and Suter are both walking at 28. Parise helped the Devils to the Cup finals this year but the Predators didn't get that same shot with Suter.

One of the worst dilemmas that they have to try to eliminate is the scenario where a player is a pending UFA and the team is looking to make a playoff run. The team has to essentially decide to make a playoff push and risk losing their star player for nothing or hurt their chances in the playoffs by getting a trade deadline return for his star player.

At worst, playoff teams should be allowed to retain one pending UFA for one additional year at 20% increased salary (or whatever is fair) so that they can attempt to trade him the next year.

Nashville essentially rolled the dice, went to the 2nd round and lost Suter for nothing. That would be devastating to any franchise.

RIM lost sight of its own progression, and the marketplace, so busy with pumping out mediocre products at an alarming rate, with very little changes or adapting to what everyone else was doing with their phones, that they lost sight of what their customers were actually looking for from them and what new innovative ideas that other smartphones were offering, that they got lost in the translation and haven't been able to keep up to the leading edge companies such as Apple and Samsung.
- eihcnerf

change the following words
RIM to Toronto
phones to teams
Apple to Detroit
Samsung to Pittsburg

change the following words
RIM to Toronto
phones to teams
Apple to Detroit
Samsung to Pittsburg


- Sammich

I applaud you for reading right to exactly what i meant. It was indeed a dig, well done. BTW Samsung should now be LA.

Edit: I think i like the cut of your jib, between your MMA knowledge and your over all intelligence, i can see you are not just an average leaf fan. BTW this being said never post really dumb roomers or trade proposals and ruin it, thanks.

change the following words
RIM to Toronto
phones to teams
Apple to Detroit
Samsung to Pittsburg


- Sammich

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

I applaud you for reading right to exactly what i meant. It was indeed a dig, well done. BTW Samsung should now be LA.
- eihcnerf

yeah well i smoked some kush 10mins ago
so there you go

Imagine a team that loses 20 million dollars per year. Suppose there is a lockout and they lose only 2 million dollars. That's 18 million dollars they didn't lose. It's not profit but it's not debt either.

Now imagine a new economic model that has them losing 10 million dollars instead of 20 million. Then they lose 5 million dollars the next year before finally turning a small profit of 1 million the next year.

That's either 80 million dollars lost or 16 million dollars lost over four years.

Pretty easy to see that the teams bleeding money would have little to no problem with a lockout.
- Two_For_Truth

hint: in your 'model', the best way of 'playing it', is just to give the team up... in this way they will 'lose' no money at all...

the suggestion that a company is interested in doing nothing is just pure nonsense.. doing nothing = by definition falling behind (= losing)

yeah well i smoked some kush 10mins ago
so there you go
- Sammich

Are we long lost relatives or something?

I'll bet RIM is saying the same thing. Sometimes, the market just kicks you out.
- Leeman4Gilmour

I know you are just joking about but a team can relocate. RIM is most likely to be purchased.

Are we long lost relatives or something?
- eihcnerf

hint: in your 'model', the best way of 'playing it', is just to give the team up... in this way they will 'lose' no money at all...

the suggestion that a company is interested in doing nothing is just pure nonsense.. doing nothing = by definition falling behind (= losing)
- MaximusAurelius

You're looking at it the wrong way. Doing nothing isn't falling behind. It's cutting your losses and trying to create a better future. Ever heard the phrase, take one step backwards before you can take two steps forwards?

A team like Phoenix is going to lose money whether they play hockey or not. All they can control is how much money they lose. It's either they play hockey and lose a lot of money or they don't play hockey, lose less money and create a new economical system to lose less money in the future.

It can be explained using Einstein's theory of relativity. If you have a talented player surrounded by untalented players, the talented player will stand out much more than normal. Schenn, at one time, was the lone bright spot and people gravitated towards him as such. Now, that has begun to happen with Gardiner. But the second you compare him to others across the league, the gem losses a little bit of it's luster because the relativity changes.
- Two_For_Truth

Or by how the Toronto media made him out to be the second coming and he never could lived up to the unrealistically high expectations

I know you are just joking about but a team can relocate. RIM is most likely to be purchased.
- bcoop

To an extent, *if* there are buyers and available markets to move to.

If 4 teams in the NHL were to hit rock bottom and essentially come to the brink of folding (Atlanta), the NHL could move them to Quebec City, Hamilton, maybe Seattle... Las Vegas? Kansas City?

It seems to me that besides those two or three northern markets, you're just shifting the problems around. I can't see the Lightning making a significantly better go of it in Kansas than Florida.

I know you are just joking about but a team can relocate. RIM is most likely to be purchased.
- bcoop

wouldn't be surprised to see them absorbed into another company or just folded.

Sort of true -- the problem is that the skyrocketing (?) revenues was driven by a few teams that made lots of money while many lost money. More and more teams are having trouble with a floor that is being driven up by big profits being made by LEafs, Habs and NYR.

There is no real revenue sharing and the owners will try to solve the problems by reducing the % that goes to players.

It will be really interesting to see what MLSE does this time. They were good boys and kept their mouths shut last time round. Now that TSN/Rogers loses big time from a shut down, they may put more pressure on Gary
- Canada Cup

This x 1000

Hockeyy Insiderr ‏@HockeyyInsiderr
Source: "Crosby is RAGING right now. Said he'll never talk to Parise again. Lied to him and to organization and broke promise."



This guy is totally hilarious......... I follow him to get a good laugh. He went to the EK school of journalism

You're looking at it the wrong way. Doing nothing isn't falling behind. It's cutting your losses and trying to create a better future. Ever heard the phrase, take one step backwards before you can take two steps forwards?

A team like Phoenix is going to lose money whether they play hockey or not. All they can control is how much money they lose. It's either they play hockey and lose a lot of money or they don't play hockey, lose less money and create a new economical system to lose less money in the future.
- Two_For_Truth

This only works if it's feasible for your organisation to reach at a point where you can actually start making some money (2/3/4 or whatever years from now..).
This is not a feasible scenario for the Phoenix franchise, nor for a few others..
So only option is to relocate (or get back to a 24-28 team league, which is not a very likely scenario)..

Proposal for new CBA: what about an option to inlcude a draft picks for salary cap 'swap'??


E.g.: Phoenix has 10million in cap space, no interest in spending up to max.
Toronto would like to spend more than max. cap.

Phoenix 'takes on' Connolly's cap hit for 12-13 season on its cap hit, withouth actually having to pay for Connolly's salary (Connolly still is eligible to play for the Leafs). The Leafs send a draft pick to the Phoenix organization in return for taking on this cap hit.

System can be put in to place as the RFA offer sheet compensations.

E.g.: Phoenix takes on 4million for one year --> compensation = Leafs' 2013 2nd round pick

Phoenix takes on 4 million for 2 years --> compensation is Leafs' 2013 1st round pick.


Owners would be happy with this (Leafs can spend over cap, Phoenix don't have to spend as much, can even spend less than now, but they can actually win by collecting high draft picks, in this way able to concentrate on younger and cheaper players).

NHLPA and players would not have any problems with this either..