Evander Kane is a prototypical Flyer: skill, grit, toughness. The very same reasons that WPG won't move him. I like the idea though
- NickTheKid87

Like I said, pure fantasy.

I would even do JvR meszy for those two.

The only reason I even started thinking was because I heard an unverified rumor that Kane wasn't happy in WPG. I havnt looked into it at all.

I dont disagree that that line was important but it wasnt the focal point. Brown, Williams and Kopitar was. Those guys were unbelieveable during the cup run. Richards and Carter are very good players and were a huge factor to LA winning. To say they were the EXACT reason for winning is being overlooked also.
- stveshdy

The point is that without Carter and Richards, it would have been much, much harder for Brown, Kopitar, and Williams to be the focal point. And vice versa. No one player on that team is the exact reason. It takes a team.

It's an unknown Bill. You can't know what other moves would have been made. There are far too many factors involved to say they would have or wouldn't have. They could have done worse also. But we don't know. It's just speculation.
- MJL

The thing is that they would have had a real struggle to stay within the cap if they still went ahead and signed Bryzgalov while keeping Richards and Carter (which would have meant no replacement for Leino, trading Versteeg with no NHL level replacement, no ability to sign Talbot, etc).

It would have made those "other moves" very hard to make.

Make no mistakes, Carter and Richards weren't simply ancillary pieces to the Kings Stanley Cup run. They weren't the main cast, that was Brown, Kopitar, Doughty, and Quick, but they were essential in LA winning. I think it's fair to say LA wouldn't have won the Cup without these two guys, and quite possibly wouldn't have even made the playoffs had they not traded for Carter. His offense helped jump start a dormant offensive hockey club.

IMO, Carter's OT goal in game 2, was by far the biggest goal of the series, there was no way the Devils were going to beat LA 4 out of 5 games after dropping the first two games on home ice.

Misreads and mistakes there were aplenty, but lack of effort didn't strike me to be as big of an issue. When they actually executed Lavi's system 100% and limited their mistakes, they were a hard team to beat. When they were running around trying to do too much, that's when things got dicey.
- Tomahawk

Not to disagree but I seen plenty of times where the Flyers were not skating hard in their own zone. Losing puck battles constantly and waiting for others to make a play. I just would like to see them be more aggressive in their own zone as well.

Misreads and mistakes there were aplenty, but lack of effort didn't strike me to be as big of an issue. When they actually executed Lavi's system 100% and limited their mistakes, they were a hard team to beat. When they were running around trying to do too much, that's when things got dicey.
- Tomahawk

I agree. That's where I think their inexperience caught up with them (injuries as well). It seemed like once they got stuck in a rut they didn't know how to get out. I don't blame the system at all. Lavy's system beat the Penguins and got them to the Cup final in 2010.

The point is that without Carter and Richards, it would have been much, much harder for Brown, Kopitar, and Williams to be the focal point. And vice versa. No one player on that team is the exact reason. It takes a team.
- MJL

Dont disagree. The fact of the matter is those guys Richards and Carter were adding to support the current group, not be the current group. They had those guys in place.

This fact seems to be lost on almost everyone. Flyers made two sensible hockey trades that netted them 4 solid pieces for the present and future. The fact Carter was traded to LA isn't anything the Flyers can control, and pretty much insignificant to the discussion. I would take a package of Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds, and Voracek for Carter and Richards every day of the week.

Flyers got fortunate that the inompetent levels of ineptitude of Messrs Chevaldayoff, and Snow that Couturier was available when they selected 8th.
- PLindbergh31

and add in another prospect (to be determined if he contributes of course) in Cousins and a pick that landed Grossmann.

The thing is that they would have had a real struggle to stay within the cap if they still went ahead and signed Bryzgalov while keeping Richards and Carter (which would have meant no replacement for Leino, trading Versteeg with no NHL level replacement, no ability to sign Talbot, etc).

It would have made those "other moves" very hard to make.
- bmeltzer

No question. But maybe if they wanted to keep Richards and Carter, they go with a cheaper player such as Vokoun and he plays his ass off. And they use the remaining Cap space to fill other holes. It's all unknow and speculation. Far too many variables to know which was it would have gone.

I want to highlight when Bill said we DON'T need a big time defenseman.

THANK YOUUUUUU. I've been saying this for a while- trading for a big name dman like Weber or WHOEVER is a mistake. Trading any 3 or 4 of the kids and picks we have, in my opinion, does more harm than good. I say stand pat on that front and keep the brightest future a Philadelphia sports team has ever had intact.

We need to make "minor" moves on D. If we look at the Kings, they have Doughty, aaaanddd.............

See?

We have quality defenseman. We have 5 #2 defensemen in Carle (assuming he stays), Grossmann, Coburn, Mez, and Timonen. If we add 1 more #2, I think we could see some solid production on the back end, whether we get him via free agency or trading (maybe like the Grossmann deal- 2 picks).

I'd rather go that route than trade 3 kids and a first rounder for a Norris Trophy candidate that most people say we "need".

Just my $0.02.

You think they were central parts I take it?
- NickTheKid87

I think that's pretty clear.

Sure, Quick, Kopitar, Brown and Doughty were huge in the playoffs, but to say that Carter and Richards "weren't central parts" given their production and all of the intangibles that they being to the table is laughable.

Flyers fans are in denial about the major roles that recent and former Flyers contributed to the Kings' ultimate success. In a word, jealous.

Just about everyone was saying what a (frank)in' genius Holmgren was after Philly knocked out Pittsburgh in the first round... Is ANYBODY saying that now?

To those of you who can only respond with a weak anti-Leafs comment, this isn't about that at all! Try to keep up and stay on topic... Carter... Richards... Kings... Kicked a$$.... S-t-a-n-l-e-y C-u-p...

and add in another prospect (to be determined if he contributes of course) in Cousins and a pick that landed Grossmann.
- nastyflyergirl

Yup. Sure wish the Flyers had that second round pick they traded away for Kubina. Injuries forced their hand into making an unwise decision to put it mildly.

I think that's pretty clear.

Sure, Quick, Kopitar, Brown and Doughty were huge in the playoffs, but to say that Carter and Richards "weren't central parts" given their production and all of the intangibles that they being to the table is laughable.

Flyers fans are in denial about the major roles that recent and former Flyers contributed to the Kings' ultimate success. In a word, jealous.

Just about everyone was saying what a (frank)in' genius Holmgren was after Philly knocked out Pittsburgh in the first round... Is ANYBODY saying that now?

To those of you who can only respond with a weak anti-Leafs comment, this isn't about that at all! Try to keep up and stay on topic... Carter... Richards... Kings... Kicked a$$.... S-t-a-n-l-e-y C-u-p...
- As_I_See_It

Yeah, actually. I'd say nothing's changed on that front.

Homer made 2 great deals that brightened the Flyers' future in a way no one has ever seen.

I'd make those deals again any time. Nice job Homer

Yup. Sure wish the Flyers had that second round pick they traded away for Kubina. Injuries forced their hand into making an unwise decision to put it mildly.
- PLindbergh31

yeah we hit on Grossmann but missed on Kubina.

I'm not a fan of throwing away picks on older vets but I can understand why they did it

No question. But maybe if they wanted to keep Richards and Carter, they go with a cheaper player such as Vokoun and he plays his ass off. And they use the remaining Cap space to fill other holes. It's all unknow and speculation. Far too many variables to know which was it would have gone.
- MJL

You may be taking bill's point too literally. Of course one can't foresee all the future moves, trades, injuries, etc. in a season. Bill is taking actual data comprised of the aforementioned players and coming to a valid hypothesis.

Not to disagree but I seen plenty of times where the Flyers were not skating hard in their own zone. Losing puck battles constantly and waiting for others to make a play. I just would like to see them be more aggressive in their own zone as well.
- stveshdy

I'm sure there were instances of what you're describing, but as a whole, the team pursued the puck in all three zones as well as most other teams.

IMO, the problem has to do with trust between the players on the ice. If all six guys on the ice are where they need to be, and are reacting the way they should, the system should take care of the rest. When you see guys constantly chasing the play or chasing the puck around, you can bet that some element of trust is missing -- a turnover, a mistake, guys out of position, D gave up the blueline too early, guys sagging around the goaltender because they think every puck is going in, etc.

IMO, a lot of it should be improved if they manage to limit their mistakes and become a bit more patient with puck management... and, of course, the goaltending needs to hold up its end of the bargain.

I think that's pretty clear.

Sure, Quick, Kopitar, Brown and Doughty were huge in the playoffs, but to say that Carter and Richards "weren't central parts" given their production and all of the intangibles that they being to the table is laughable.

Flyers fans are in denial about the major roles that recent and former Flyers contributed to the Kings' ultimate success. In a word, jealous.

Just about everyone was saying what a (frank)in' genius Holmgren was after Philly knocked out Pittsburgh in the first round... Is ANYBODY saying that now?

To those of you who can only respond with a weak anti-Leafs comment, this isn't about that at all! Try to keep up and stay on topic... Carter... Richards... Kings... Kicked a$$.... S-t-a-n-l-e-y C-u-p...
- As_I_See_It

Yes.

yeah we hit on Grossmann but missed on Kubina.

I'm not a fan of throwing away picks on older vets but I can understand why they did it
- nastyflyergirl

I don't think there was any chance Kubina and Grossmann would have been resigned even if they both played well. I thought the Kubina move was a bad one right away. Even when he was healthy he wasn't used on the PP, and of course what else he got injured like everyone else.

No question. But maybe if they wanted to keep Richards and Carter, they go with a cheaper player such as Vokoun and he plays his ass off. And they use the remaining Cap space to fill other holes. It's all unknow and speculation. Far too many variables to know which was it would have gone.
- MJL

If you take Bryzgalov out of the equation then, yes, there are any number of other directions the Flyers could have gone. But to have all three -- Bryzgalov, Richards and Carter -- they would have been severely hamstrung by the cap. Once Pronger and JVR went down, it could very well have an ugly season.

You may be taking bill's point too literally. Of course one can't foresee all the future moves, trades, injuries, etc. in a season. Bill is taking actual data comprised of the aforementioned players and coming to a valid hypothesis.
- omaplata

MJL isn't known for his facts and numbers.

I don't think there was any chance Kubina and Grossmann would have been resigned even if they both played well. I thought the Kubina move was a bad one right away. Even when he was healthy he wasn't used on the PP, and of course what else he got injured like everyone else.
- PLindbergh31

You may be taking bill's point too literally. Of course one can't foresee all the future moves, trades, injuries, etc. in a season. Bill is taking actual data comprised of the aforementioned players and coming to a valid hypothesis.
- omaplata

There's no other way to take it. He makes legitimate points about the difficulty that the Flyers would have had as far as the Cap is concerned, and adding Bryzgalov. As that was one of the main reasons why the trades were made. But in my opinion you can't make a blanket statement that they wouldn't have done better if they had kept them and gone in a different direction as far as other moves. The actual data if they had kept Richards and Carter is non existant.

I'm sure there were instances of what you're describing, but as a whole, the team pursued the puck in all three zones as well as most other teams.

IMO, the problem has to do with trust between the players on the ice. If all six guys on the ice are where they need to be, and are reacting the way they should, the system should take care of the rest. When you see guys constantly chasing the play or chasing the puck around, you can bet that some element of trust is missing -- a turnover, a mistake, guys out of position, D gave up the blueline too early, guys sagging around the goaltender because they think every puck is going in, etc.

IMO, a lot of it should be improved if they manage to limit their mistakes and become a bit more patient with puck management... and, of course, the goaltending needs to hold up its end of the bargain.
- Tomahawk

Thats fair. Either way they need to clean it up.

Yeah, actually. I'd say nothing's changed on that front.

Homer made 2 great deals that brightened the Flyers' future in a way no one has ever seen.

I'd make those deals again any time. Nice job Homer
- Giroux_Is_God

I can respect this, but don't tell that Flyers fans everywhere didn't cringe a little to see Carter and Richards hoisting the cup together and thinking a little of what could have been...

- Giroux_Is_God

I mean seriously, Grossmann and Kubina were acquired to help bring some qualities lacking from the absence of Chris Pronger.

The injury replacements getting injured is something that is just unreal.