This is true too. But while Wings fans want to say I don't know anything about prospects or the great Tomas Jurco, JJ actually DOES know a little something about prospects. And I will tell you that those picks were made when the Wings were scouting Europe much more and much better than other teams. Those days have changed. Holland can't go in any longer and be the only GM whose had a pair of paid eyeballs on some kid playing above the Arctic Circle.Now 20-25 teams have seen him. Huge difference.

I like Holland a lot. I respect what the Wings have done a lot. I lived in Michigan and covered hockey for a number of years. I get it. But I also think that this wild "forecasting" of a continuation of Detroit's dominance after Lidstrom retires and Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen get even older and more injury prone is a little like Hitler moving around non-existent armies on the battle board in the bunker.

Zetterberg and Franzen are very good to great players that come along once a decade or so for a good team. Lidstrom is a once every 30 years player. Datsyuk is a once every 20 years player. They will not replace all these guys at once or within a 5 year span. Anyone thinking that is dreaming.
- John Jaeckel

really good points.

In your overall argument that Suter would 'possibly' prefer the Hawks because they are better situated for success in 5-10 seasons from now.... I respectfully think you discount the fact that Detroit really does have a solid system. They still execute at the draft well, coach/develop well, manage the cap and contracts well, and they replace parts well (i.e. getting quincy at the deadline was a good move imo).

The hawks don't have an identity right now imo which is concerning (are they big and tough, small and fast, big and skilled, offensive vs defensive, balanced). For me... I wouldn't bet my salary that the Hawks will definitely be better than the Wings in 5-10 seasons.... as you say (and I believe as well) - a lot can go wrong between then and now to the individuals on the current rosters and in the minors. Kane could be hit by a cabbie, Hossa could retire, Morin could continue to get concussed, etc.).... who knows?

Just some thoughts. For me, I'm pretty simple... I'm just hoping Bryz will be better in 5-10 years considering he'll still be a flyer then

JJ, great point. I actually had this conversation with a Red Wing fan, I know I know, that I talk hockey with a lot and he agreed with me. The Red Wings scouts found those guys because they werent exactly the first on the scene in countries like Sweden, but they looked and scouted HEAVILY there, more than anyone else at the time, so they had their pick of the litter because most teams just didnt know as much about them as DET did. In the same respect, over the past 10 years, the Hawks have had some of the best North American scouts with pretty brutal european scouts, as evident by the breadth of our drafting. On the DET side, they have had amazing Euro scouts and some down right terrible North American scouts. Chicago hasnt drafted a euro stud in forever, and DET hasnt drafted a North American stud in forever either
- FourFeathers773

Hawks are scouting Europe MUCH better now, especially Sweden. Picks like Nordstrom, Shalunov, Mattson and Hoefflin are all testament to this. Nordstrom's two way game and hockey sense could get him to the NHL. Shalunov, if he wants to be, can be a very good NHL player. Hoefflin has NHL speed right now. Mattson might have an NHL future. 3rd, 5th and 7th round picks.

I don't know how hard the Hawks actually scouted Kruger as much as Scotty tipped them off based on Detroit's scouting— not sure, Wiz knows that story better than I do. But Kruger also was a steal in the 5th round.

I was wrong earlier, Pitt didn't pass 2 or 3 times on local boy Saad.

They picked 23rd and 54...Saad was the 43rd Draft pick.

My point, although overstated remains the same...

Pitt had every opportunity to hone in on local boy Saad and they did not.

Maybe someday they will regret not doing so but for now I don't see Saad as being someone they will desire in a trade.

really good points.

In your overall argument that Suter would 'possibly' prefer the Hawks because they are better situated for success in 5-10 seasons from now.... 1) I respectfully think you discount the fact that Detroit really does have a solid system. 2) They still execute at the draft well, coach/develop well, manage the cap and contracts well, and they replace parts well (i.e. getting quincy at the deadline was a good move imo).

3) The hawks don't have an identity right now imo which is concerning (are they big and tough, small and fast, big and skilled, offensive vs defensive, balanced). For me...

4) I wouldn't bet my salary that the Hawks will definitely be better than the Wings in 5-10 seasons.... as you say (and I believe as well) - a lot can go wrong between then and now to the individuals on the current rosters and in the minors. Kane could be hit by a cabbie, Hossa could retire, Morin could continue to get concussed, etc.).... who knows?

Just some thoughts. For me, I'm pretty simple... I'm just hoping Bryz will be better in 5-10 years considering he'll still be a flyer then
- moylander

1) See my thoughts above. Detroit's top prospects are no better than the Hawks' top guys. Maybe not as good. And the Hawks have made many more first and second round picks over the last two years– 10 guys in the first two rounds.

2) True. But see 1, they did not have the advantage the Hawks had of selling off top players for picks and prospects. Not all, but some of those extra picks for the Hawks will pay off.

3) No argument. But they have young talent in the NHL and likely on the way to work with. Leddy and Kruger are both 20 and 21! Jimmy Hayes is 21.

4) Keeping it simple, Detroit is going to lose generational talent at key positions over the next 3-4 years. They have zero prospects that will replace any of those guys. The Hawks will keep very good and generational players for at least the next 3-4 years. And they have stockpiled more prospects who could pan out than Detroit has—that's just a fact—they've had way more high picks, and a lot of those kids (Saad, Danault, McNeill, Kevin Hayes, Johns, Clendening—all 1st or 2nd rounders taken in the last two years) look like they're going tobe good NHL players.

All that said, the Hawks need to get their internal house in order, no question. But still, the odds of being a competitive team, based on talent and age of talent, are in their favor.

Hey Bill,

I'm thinking for the first time in forever there actually might be a good chance the #1 pick is traded.

Your thoughts?
- Al

I see them busy at the draft working all angles and trying to upgrade with signed NHL players whose contracts are reasonable and also trying to clear Cap Space if Suter's team has given indications that are seriously interested.
As far as trading the first pick:
I look at the board at 18 and there will be lots of longer term development guys at all positions, and there is good chance to get a defenseman who could devlop into a 2nd pair regular. A couple teams ahead reach and the 18th slot may even provide a better player, or if you have convinced yourself there is a franchise goalie you can wait for, you go for it.
In the back of my mind, two things stand clear if I am the GM.
In 2013, I have only a first rounder and 4-7, due to the Oduya playoff addition for this year, and
I look at all the first round pick trades that happend in the last draft and at the deadline.
Brouwer-for a late first rounder (Danault), and Predator's irresponsible over-pay on Gaustad, and how Detroit readily discarded their first rounder this year to Tampa for Kyle Qunicey, an under-contracted familiar quanity for them.
This suggests that if the Hawks were willing to trade the first rounder, that you really may not get much for it.
Tied to trading it is the fact that after Yakupov, there are about nine standouts that look to eventually play in the NHL,(but not impact types) and a good strong third tier to about pick 16. What makes the 2012 NHL draft so unique and unusual is that after the first 16 or so picks, there is reasonable evidence that a solid group of first, second, and even third year youngsters whose games have yet to round out, look and project as eventual NHL players just below the top line, top pair, or top scorer.
But in my humble opinion, by pick 18, you have a good a chance at a good prospect when selecting at 18 or later, depending upon the players taken before you choose.
I see 2012 may even be a thicker class than in 2011, as it will yield really nice long term prospects far into the slots in the 70's.... but even by pick 18 you are gonna wait longer than most other drafts for the prospects' games to round out.
A lot less player were all the factors surrounding their games are in place and all that the parent club is waiting for is, advancement & experience.
I don't think there will be Saad type anomalies...so many of this class won't make the grade until later...much later.

And the other thing:
as fans we all have a sense of urgency toward improvement and change for our favorite teams.
I wonder if the possible work stoppage barometer will slow much of the player movement because there may not be a season for awhile...why try and sell the product now if there is no season?

I think they keep the pick and maybe actually surprise with whom they pick, much like the Danault selection that I keep hearing from folks was a boom or bust one.
(That is not to say there isn't lots to like about Danault, just that he projected lower to all "us experts.")

Bolland and Saad for Jordan Staal? Interesting proposal from hawks beat writer

http://espn.go.com/blog/c...mprove-by-dealing-bolland

Then move kruger to 3rd line center. What are your guys thoughts?
- Wowo2282

No. Way.

Huge overpay, Kruger is not ready (yet), and I am betting the Pens won't trade Staal. Shell game deal - filling a hole by creating another.

Reading all the discussion on amateur scouting, whether in North America or Europe, it seems the Hawks are strong or at least heading in the right direction in that area. The area that is not being discussed is the Hawks PRO scouting. With the roster that they have now, a solid offseason fueled by practical FA signings would make this team a serious threat for the cup. I by no means think that the hawks need to ignore the future, but teams would kill to have the current collection of talent the Hawks have. Our pro scouts need to pick up some slack and give our front office the information and recommendations that will surround our talented players with the proper role players. That would set the hawks up now and in the future.

No. Way.

Huge overpay, Kruger is not ready (yet), and I am betting the Pens won't trade Staal. Shell game deal - filling a hole by creating another.
- Return of the Roar

Keep Bolland Move Sharp

Actually atthe UC a lite is 8.50, but a regular beer like a Stella, Green Line, or any other import/premium is only 9.00 even. I don't know why people drink lite there. Get a real beer for 50 cents more. Green Line is like 8% ABV as well, so you get more than doubly drunk for the same price.
- anawrocki

I have taken to fueling up at Beer Bistro on Madison before the games now. If I'm going to spend $8 + for a beer it's going to be from Belgium - or Oregon.

Keep Bolland Move Sharp
- nickmo2699

Now we lose a 30+ goal scorer for what in trade? If it's another 30+ goal scorer what do you gain? If you fill the 2C spot with his cap money, who replaces the 30+ goals on the wing? Stalberg??

Sorry. The answer is in the addition of the RIGHT role players, and not putting our core guys on lighted billboards with a for sale sign on them just to see what we can get.

Negotiation starts with " What I want is..." and not "Look what I have, what will you give me for him?"

Keep Bolland Move Sharp
- nickmo2699

I doubt the Hawks move Sharp. I'm not saying they shouldn't move Sharp. I'm just saying it seems the regime running the organization won't move him.

I doubt the Hawks move Sharp. I'm not saying they shouldn't move Sharp. I'm just saying it seems the regime running the organization won't move him.
- EKolb13

The speed with which that deal got done, and the generosity of the numbers and term clearly say he's staying. That is not an easy contract to deal to anyone now.

1) See my thoughts above. Detroit's top prospects are no better than the Hawks' top guys. Maybe not as good. And the Hawks have made many more first and second round picks over the last two years– 10 guys in the first two rounds.

2) True. But see 1, they did not have the advantage the Hawks had of selling off top players for picks and prospects. Not all, but some of those extra picks for the Hawks will pay off.

3) No argument. But they have young talent in the NHL and likely on the way to work with. Leddy and Kruger are both 20 and 21! Jimmy Hayes is 21.

4) Keeping it simple, Detroit is going to lose generational talent at key positions over the next 3-4 years. They have zero prospects that will replace any of those guys. The Hawks will keep very good and generational players for at least the next 3-4 years. And they have stockpiled more prospects who could pan out than Detroit has—that's just a fact—they've had way more high picks, and a lot of those kids (Saad, Danault, McNeill, Kevin Hayes, Johns, Clendening—all 1st or 2nd rounders taken in the last two years) look like they're going tobe good NHL players.

All that said, the Hawks need to get their internal house in order, no question. But still, the odds of being a competitive team, based on talent and age of talent, are in their favor.
- John Jaeckel

Thanks for the response. All in all I agree with what you are saying. A snapshot right now and yeah, the Hawks talent-wise and age-wise are in a really good place to be better off than Detroit.... BUT if they can't get their 'internal house in order' Detroit could very well be better off in 5 seasons. Just an observation but I look at teams with strong systems and they seem to attract and retain talent. Bruins, Detroit, Philly, NJ, etc.... and in the NFL teams like the Pats and Steelers. The Hawks in 2010 had every player saying they would take a paycut to stay.... since then guys like campbell and brouwer couldn't wait to get out,. Now it sounds like senior management is squabbling, same with the players in the locker room. Minimizing the internal chaos is the biggest challenge for the hawks to sustain long-term success.... having a system they stick to helps. jmo.

The speed with which that deal got done, and the generosity of the numbers and term clearly say he's staying. That is not an easy contract to deal to anyone now.
- Return of the Roar

Agreed. Once that NTC kicks in July 1st, he'll be that much tougher to try to move.

I see them busy at the draft working all angles and trying to upgrade with signed NHL players whose contracts are reasonable and also trying to clear Cap Space if Suter's team has given indications that are seriously interested.
As far as trading the first pick:
I look at the board at 18 and there will be lots of longer term development guys at all positions, and there is good chance to get a defenseman who could devlop into a 2nd pair regular. A couple teams ahead reach and the 18th slot may even provide a better player, or if you have convinced yourself there is a franchise goalie you can wait for, you go for it.
In the back of my mind, two things stand clear if I am the GM.
In 2013, I have only a first rounder and 4-7, due to the Oduya playoff addition for this year, and
I look at all the first round pick trades that happend in the last draft and at the deadline.
Brouwer-for a late first rounder (Danault), and Predator's irresponsible over-pay on Gaustad, and how Detroit readily discarded their first rounder this year to Tampa for Kyle Qunicey, an under-contracted familiar quanity for them.
This suggests that if the Hawks were willing to trade the first rounder, that you really may not get much for it.
Tied to trading it is the fact that after Yakupov, there are about nine standouts that look to eventually play in the NHL,(but not impact types) and a good strong third tier to about pick 16. What makes the 2012 NHL draft so unique and unusual is that after the first 16 or so picks, there is reasonable evidence that a solid group of first, second, and even third year youngsters whose games have yet to round out, look and project as eventual NHL players just below the top line, top pair, or top scorer.
But in my humble opinion, by pick 18, you have a good a chance at a good prospect when selecting at 18 or later, depending upon the players taken before you choose.
I see 2012 may even be a thicker class than in 2011, as it will yield really nice long term prospects far into the slots in the 70's.... but even by pick 18 you are gonna wait longer than most other drafts for the prospects' games to round out.
A lot less player were all the factors surrounding their games are in place and all that the parent club is waiting for is, advancement & experience.
I don't think there will be Saad type anomalies...so many of this class won't make the grade until later...much later.

And the other thing:
as fans we all have a sense of urgency toward improvement and change for our favorite teams.
I wonder if the possible work stoppage barometer will slow much of the player movement because there may not be a season for awhile...why try and sell the product now if there is no season?

I think they keep the pick and maybe actually surprise with whom they pick, much like the Danault selection that I keep hearing from folks was a boom or bust one.
(That is not to say there isn't lots to like about Danault, just that he projected lower to all "us experts.")
- wiz1901

Bill Thanks, but I wasn't clear...

I don't think the Hawks will trade their 1st rounder unless part of a much bigger deal...Which like you said may happen if Suter comes here.

I was referring to the Oil dealing the #1 overall selection.

Also found it unusual you didn 't have any draftees coming from a major US College program...Off year here in the States or did I miss some??

Also my view is unless some major negative talk is coming from the CBA issue beforehand it will be business as usual at the Draft.

The Draft is too important these days to not go at it all out.

Thanks for the response. All in all I agree with what you are saying. A snapshot right now and yeah, the Hawks talent-wise and age-wise are in a really good place to be better off than Detroit.... BUT if they can't get their 'internal house in order' Detroit could very be better off in 5 seasons. Just an observation but I look at teams with strong systems and they seem to attract and retain talent. Bruins, Detroit, Philly, NJ, etc.... and in the NFL teams like the Pats and Steelers. The Hawks in 2010 had every player saying they would take a paycut to stay.... since then guys like campbell and brouwer couldn't wait to get out,. Now it sounds like senior management is squabbling, same with the players in the locker room. Minimizing the internal chaos is the biggest challenge for the hawks to sustain long-term success.... having a system they stick to helps. jmo.
- moylander

Potential for success aside, this issue boils down to one thing - which front office is less dysfunctional and more professional as it relates to the employer/employee relationship. The answer to that question to me anyway, is self evident.

I see them busy at the draft working all angles and trying to upgrade with signed NHL players whose contracts are reasonable and also trying to clear Cap Space if Suter's team has given indications that are seriously interested.
As far as trading the first pick:
I look at the board at 18 and there will be lots of longer term development guys at all positions, and there is good chance to get a defenseman who could devlop into a 2nd pair regular. A couple teams ahead reach and the 18th slot may even provide a better player, or if you have convinced yourself there is a franchise goalie you can wait for, you go for it.
In the back of my mind, two things stand clear if I am the GM.
In 2013, I have only a first rounder and 4-7, due to the Oduya playoff addition for this year, and
I look at all the first round pick trades that happend in the last draft and at the deadline.
Brouwer-for a late first rounder (Danault), and Predator's irresponsible over-pay on Gaustad, and how Detroit readily discarded their first rounder this year to Tampa for Kyle Qunicey, an under-contracted familiar quanity for them.
This suggests that if the Hawks were willing to trade the first rounder, that you really may not get much for it.
Tied to trading it is the fact that after Yakupov, there are about nine standouts that look to eventually play in the NHL,(but not impact types) and a good strong third tier to about pick 16. What makes the 2012 NHL draft so unique and unusual is that after the first 16 or so picks, there is reasonable evidence that a solid group of first, second, and even third year youngsters whose games have yet to round out, look and project as eventual NHL players just below the top line, top pair, or top scorer.
But in my humble opinion, by pick 18, you have a good a chance at a good prospect when selecting at 18 or later, depending upon the players taken before you choose.
I see 2012 may even be a thicker class than in 2011, as it will yield really nice long term prospects far into the slots in the 70's.... but even by pick 18 you are gonna wait longer than most other drafts for the prospects' games to round out.
A lot less player were all the factors surrounding their games are in place and all that the parent club is waiting for is, advancement & experience.
I don't think there will be Saad type anomalies...so many of this class won't make the grade until later...much later.

And the other thing:
as fans we all have a sense of urgency toward improvement and change for our favorite teams.
I wonder if the possible work stoppage barometer will slow much of the player movement because there may not be a season for awhile...why try and sell the product now if there is no season?

I think they keep the pick and maybe actually surprise with whom they pick, much like the Danault selection that I keep hearing from folks was a boom or bust one.
(That is not to say there isn't lots to like about Danault, just that he projected lower to all "us experts.")
- wiz1901

Hey Wiz,

What do you think about Vasilevski if he is still there at 18. I thought the kid was a STUD in the WJCs.

Thanks for the response. All in all I agree with what you are saying. A snapshot right now and yeah, the Hawks talent-wise and age-wise are in a really good place to be better off than Detroit.... BUT if they can't get their 'internal house in order' Detroit could very well be better off in 5 seasons. Just an observation but I look at teams with strong systems and they seem to attract and retain talent. Bruins, Detroit, Philly, NJ, etc.... and in the NFL teams like the Pats and Steelers. The Hawks in 2010 had every player saying they would take a paycut to stay.... since then guys like campbell and brouwer couldn't wait to get out,. Now it sounds like senior management is squabbling, same with the players in the locker room. Minimizing the internal chaos is the biggest challenge for the hawks to sustain long-term success.... having a system they stick to helps. jmo.
- moylander

I won't disagree. But, again, I'd rather start out with an advantage in terms of young NHL talent and prospect depth.

I won't disagree. But, again, I'd rather start out with an advantage in terms of young NHL talent and prospect depth.
- John Jaeckel

http://blackhawks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=632718&navid=DL|CHI|home

nice read on the hawks website about the rooks.

http://blackhawks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=632718&navid=DL|CHI|home

nice read on the hawks website about the rooks.
- nickmo2699

Foreshadowing the future????

A pump the rooks campaign = few if any big moves.

That would blow. If we see a media push themed around "These kids can play" a la the Sox, you can give up on next season now.

Hey VANTEL,
From Ek's blog:
* I am currently talking to sources with another Western Conference team who looks to be readying themselves for their most aggressive summer to date. More on the details and the team in my next blog, but let's just say "If you aren't going to fire the GM or Coach you have to fire the players. "


Get ready for some real bogus Nucks rumors!

http://blackhawks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=632718&navid=DL|CHI|home

nice read on the hawks website about the rooks.
- nickmo2699

I forgot about Shaw, who is only 20!

There are rumors that Ryan Suter and Zach Parise want to play together next season.
Both are unrestricted free agents to be and while Parise is still involved in the Stanley Cup playoffs, Suter's season was ended last round by the Coyotes. Detroit could be a possible destination for both as the Red Wings are a top team and apparently have the money and cap room for the American-born players. Stay tuned as this has the potential to be the biggest story in the off-season.

Out of Detroit earlier today....

I forgot about Shaw, who is only 20!
- John Jaeckel

JJ,
I like the lineup with Shaw and Carcillo in it together. I think it gives them real energy & grit. I still say, though, Stan can make all of the moves he wants on the D and Forward side, I just don't see a team winning a Cup with Crawford in net. Too many S-O-F-T (thank you, Larry Legend) goals at crucial times. I think our cup willing goalie is gonna have to be an in-season trade after they finally realize He is not the answer.

Foreshadowing the future????

A pump the rooks campaign = few if any big moves.

That would blow. If we see a media push themed around "These kids can play" a la the Sox, you can give up on next season now.
- Return of the Roar

I think you're reading too much into it. They are ALWAYS hyping the rookies and prospects. If anything, they do it so they can fall back on it if nothing else works out this summer.

Personally, I am going to be shocked if the Hawks don't make a move or two prior to the draft, and maybe a relatively big one. If they clear some cap space, then they will be very active July 1.

Politically/perceptually, they can't go into September with the same time and "another year experience for the rookies/prospects." The fanbase will be ready to revolt, even more than they already are.

McDonough knows this better than anyone.

Further Quenneville has demanded, and was promised, changes. Specifically, I'm told, more veterans who can still play.