You have to base his value on team needs and what the market will bear. It's often not as simple as saying, "I won't go higher than $XXX on a player"

Nobody knows where the cap will be, or what the market value for players like Hartnell will be in a year form now. You have to care what other players will get because you will have to replace what Hartnell does. It's not NHL 12.

If you let Hartnell walk, how do you replace him? Is it better to have a guy with a somewhat overpriced cap hit or to trade valuable assets to replace him after he's gone?
- Jsaquella

Odds are the replacement will end up with a similar if not higher cap hit, but to the masses it will be more justifiable (until he plays his first game)

You have to base his value on team needs and what the market will bear. It's often not as simple as saying, "I won't go higher than $XXX on a player"

Nobody knows where the cap will be, or what the market value for players like Hartnell will be in a year form now. You have to care what other players will get because you will have to replace what Hartnell does. It's not NHL 12.

If you let Hartnell walk, how do you replace him? Is it better to have a guy with a somewhat overpriced cap hit or to trade valuable assets to replace him after he's gone?
- Jsaquella

If you let Hartnell walk you try and replace him with JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, and Schenn. They are your future, and they are going to need raises too. While everything we say is hypothetical, I do think it's fair to say 5 million is a solid number for what Hartnell brings to the table.

Odds are the replacement will end up with a similar if not higher cap hit, but to the masses it will be more justifiable (until he plays his first game)
- jak521

Ultimately, that's usually true.

I just get the feeling the entire town of Bear, Delaware dislikes Hartnell

I'm not sure if we are on the same page or not. I dont care what other people are making, and I don't care what he could get on the open market, and the Flyers shouldn't either. They should set a number that they feel he is worth. whether its the same 4.5 million or a raise to 5 million... And offer it to him. If he doesn't like it, I'm not getting into a bidding war for him, and I'm not going to over pay him. He is a valuable player, but every dollar you over pay him, is less money you have to better your team or keep your young players.
- RooNosHockey

Contract negotiations don't work like that. Let's join the real World here. You don't just pull a number out of your ass and say that's what I think he's worth. And I have a hard time understanding your logic. Let's not pay a top player what he's worth and let him walk so we can make our team better. Is letting go of top players really how you make your team better? This goes back to the beginning of last Season when you wanted him traded.

If you let Hartnell walk you try and replace him with JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, and Schenn. They are your future, and they are going to need raises too. While everything we say is hypothetical, I do think it's fair to say 5 million is a solid number for what Hartnell brings to the table.
- RooNosHockey

Again, where is the logic here. Your still losing a player. And still need another player, not one already on the team. To replace the player you lost.

If you let Hartnell walk you try and replace him with JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, and Schenn. They are your future, and they are going to need raises too. While everything we say is hypothetical, I do think it's fair to say 5 million is a solid number for what Hartnell brings to the table.
- RooNosHockey

So say Jagr doesnt come back, and hypothetically Hartnell is moved.

Czechie-G-JvR
Read-Briere-Simmonds
Schenn-Coots-Wellwood
Rinaldo-Talbot-Shelley

You are 1 injury away from having the worst 4th line in NHL history. 2 away from having rinaldo in the top 3.

5M would be an 800K raise over his current Cap hit. I guess it depends on what you're definition of a slight raise is.
- MJL

It's going to be a long off-season isn't it? Seriously? 10. 9. 8. 7. 6. 5. 4. 3. 3 and a half, 2. 2 and a quarter, 1. Woosaa.

Odds are the replacement will end up with a similar if not higher cap hit, but to the masses it will be more justifiable (until he plays his first game)
- jak521

They have that Simmonds guy.

Ultimately, that's usually true.

I just get the feeling the entire town of Bear, Delaware dislikes Hartnell
- Jsaquella

Strange no?

i wonder if he "Hartnelled" (similar to being Burrelled) Bear, De.

If you let Hartnell walk you try and replace him with JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, and Schenn. They are your future, and they are going to need raises too. While everything we say is hypothetical, I do think it's fair to say 5 million is a solid number for what Hartnell brings to the table.
- RooNosHockey

Hartnell's offense and physical play was needed this year with 2 out of the 4 you mentioned having career years. The only one of the four that comes close to Hartnell's physical play is Simmonds. Voracek is not a power forward and JvR might never be an overly physical player. Schenn is physical, but he doesn't have Hartnell's size.

It's not as dumb as somebody suggesting that Erik Gustafsson could step right in and replace Carle. But expecting those 4 to replace everything Hartnell brings isn't being realistic.

Not saying he's irreplaceable, but like Carle, you're not going to do it with out spending assets or paying a guy a big cap hit.

Again, where is the logic here. Your still losing a player. And still need another player, not one already on the team. To replace the player you lost.
- MJL

The point is, hopefully one of JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, or Schenn can step into his role, then your replacing a 3rd or 4th liner, which is cheaper and easier.

#hartnellextension

I believe the Flyers will resign Hartnell, and overpay slightly. Really, that's what the Flyers do is overpay somewhat for talent, which when trying to recruit players is good thing going for the organization. I expect a 3 year, maybe 4 year extension.
- ravishingone

It's ashame he has a NTC. His value is at it's highest point. Anything more than 2-3 years is too much. Flyers have young players with higher potential to worry about in the future. I like Hartnell just not sure what's fair value as far as money and years.

They have that Simmonds guy.
- bradleyc4

What if Simmonds were to suffer an injury. The would have zero big physical bodies.

You need that power forward/ aggressive type of player.

Strange no?

i wonder if he "Hartnelled" (similar to being Burrelled) Bear, De.
- jak521

Roo's neighbor, youarewrong demanded he be traded by Thanksgiving last year. Now Roo is drawing a line in the sand with zero knowledge of the cap moving forward and seemingly less idea of how to replace him.

The point is, hopefully one of JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, or Schenn can step into his role, then your replacing a 3rd or 4th liner, which is cheaper and easier.
- RooNosHockey

It also depletes your depth.

Would you rather have Read or Wellwood on your 3rd line?

So say Jagr doesnt come back, and hypothetically Hartnell is moved.

Czechie-G-JvR
Read-Briere-Simmonds
Schenn-Coots-Wellwood
Rinaldo-Talbot-Shelley

You are 1 injury away from having the worst 4th line in NHL history. 2 away from having rinaldo in the top 3.
- jak521

If Jagr and Hartnell dont come back you also have an extra 7.5ish million to spend on 3rd and 4th liners, if you expect the young guys can up thier game.

Roo's neighbor, youarewrong demanded he be traded by Thanksgiving last year. Now Roo is drawing a line in the sand with zero knowledge of the cap moving forward and seemingly less idea of how to replace him.
- Jsaquella

I'm not drawing a line. I'm saying based on what we know now, what I would do. I like Hartnell, but I wouldnt pay him more then 5 million a year. That is all.

You have to base what you pay him on several factors.

1. The cap. If it's higher then Hartnell having a higher cap hit isn't a huge deal

2. How can you replace him? It's the same thing with Matt Carle. Is paying Matt Carle $5mm better than paying Ryan Suter $7mm? Is it better to pay Hartnell $5.5mm or Corey Perry $7.8mm or so?

3. Where he fits, pay wise, is not a valid argument. Giroux is obviously their best forward, but he hasn't had UFA eligibility yet, so his contract isn't going to be as much as a guy who has hit the UFA market. You can't use a guy who hasn't hit UFA as a comparison point.
- Jsaquella

definitely a big factor, but i think that one helps carle more than it helps hartnell in negotiations. i just think that top 4 puck-moving dmen are tougher to come by than top-6 wingers, even of the power forward variety. you may have to settle for one of lesser quality than hartnell, but that's not the end of the world if other scoring forwards pick up the slack

not to say i'm done with hartnell or anything like that, i like him and feel he's a necessary part of this team. i just mean that in that factor, which is definitely an important way to look at it, you're not as limited with your options as you are with someone like carle or kimmo (generally at least)

If Jagr and Hartnell dont come back you also have an extra 7.5ish million to spend on 3rd and 4th liners, if you expect the young guys can up thier game.
- RooNosHockey

It's not just about offense. Like last year, when people wanted Hartnell traded by Thanksgiving, the point was made that Hartnell is also the only consistently physical presence in the top 6.

That has not really changed. Given the choice between overpaying Hartnell or overpaying an unknown quantity, either in cap hit or via trade, I'll take overpaying Hartnell.

I'm not drawing a line. I'm saying based on what we know now, what I would do. I like Hartnell, but I wouldnt pay him more then 5 million a year. That is all.
- RooNosHockey

Saying you wouldn't pay him more than $5mm IS the definition of drawing a line.

If Jagr and Hartnell dont come back you also have an extra 7.5ish million to spend on 3rd and 4th liners, if you expect the young guys can up thier game.
- RooNosHockey

So trade off our consistent 50 point most physical forward, who brings the most to our pp and is our only true net presence... and use that money for 3rd and 4th liners? I dont get the logic..

Why not allow the younger players to mature with out being forced to produce. Allow 19 year old Coots the time to physically mature and gain a bit of experience before forcing him into a top PP position. Why not allow Schenn to get a full healthy year of experience before forcing him into a top producers role?

definitely a big factor, but i think that one helps carle more than it helps hartnell in negotiations. i just think that top 4 puck-moving dmen are tougher to come by than top-6 wingers, even of the power forward variety. you may have to settle for one of lesser quality than hartnell, but that's not the end of the world if other scoring forwards pick up the slack

not to say i'm done with hartnell or anything like that, i like him and feel he's a necessary part of this team. i just mean that in that factor, which is definitely an important way to look at it, you're not as limited with your options as you are with someone like carle or kimmo (generally at least)
- FlyerMike18

It helps Carle this summer, because the UFA crop of defensemen is pretty weak.

Next summer, when Hartnell is a UFA, the class will include Jarome Iginla, Corey Perry, Ryan Getzlaff and Brendan Morrow. Somebody might be able to take Iggy or Morrow more cheaply, on a short term deal, but Perry and Getzlaff oculd command huge salaries. That could impact the market for Hartnell in two ways:

1. Supply might exceed demand. If Iginla and Morrow have good years next season, perhaps they're attractive and viable alternatives.

2. Perry & Getzlaff, combined with Iginla, could drive up the market for a guy like Hartnell, especially if they re-sign before they hit UFA.

If JvR comes out and has a huge year and shows some snarl, and Simmonds doesn't regress, and has himself a 25 goal year, then I'd consider more favorably allowing Hartnell to walk.

So trade off our consistent 50 point most physical forward, who brings the most to our pp and is our only true net presence... and use that money for 3rd and 4th liners? I dont get the logic..

Why not allow the younger players to mature with out being forced to produce. Allow 19 year old Coots the time to physically mature and gain a bit of experience before forcing him into a top PP position. Why not allow Schenn to get a full healthy year of experience before forcing him into a top producers role?
- jak521

How long do you give them? Hartnell isnt UFA until after next season. Plenty of time to know if our young guys can handle the extra load or not.

Saying you wouldn't pay him more than $5mm IS the definition of drawing a line.
- Jsaquella