Anyone who says Staal is nothing more than a 50 point player clearly doesn't understand hockey.

I kinda want Jordan Staal to just sign an extension already, cause I'm sick of talkign about him.

Yet again I find myself on this dumb (frank)ing site providing clarification on a topic two sides seem to know everything about, but in reality are completly misguided.

I am going to say this one time, Jordan Staal is an ELITE talent. And yes, I said the word elite.

There are few PLAYERS, meaing any forward position, that rival Staal defensively. The only ones that are even close are names like Kesler, Bergeron, Richards, etc. Among even those players, Jordan Staal still may be the creme' of the crop.

The great debate over how good of an offensive player Jordan Staal is settled easy if you actually watch him play and take a look at his stats. No, Staal is not a third liner anymore. That's a lame statement to make. Staal hasn't been a third liner for essentially two seasons now.

And no, Richard, Jordan Staal DOES NOT play on the powerplay. Probably should have looked a little deeper into such a stat if your not sure because you don't watch them enough.

Kunitz. Sullivan. Crosby. Malkin. Neal. All with more average PPTOI/G than Staal. Staal essentially shared the 6th and final forward spot between the two powerplay lines with Tyler Kennedy and Matt Cooke. He DOES NOT recieve the PPTOI/G that a typical top-6 center sees.

Pittsburgh fans know Jordan Staal isn't just a "50 point center", but it's really easy for someone outside the fanbase to easily label Staal as such. The converse is true, as it's real easy for a Pittsburgh fan to call Sam Gagner a 40 point center, when most Edmonton fans know he is a 60 pt guy with better line-mates and a respectable team.

Wanna know the facts? Jordan Staal has already put up two back to back 49 point seasons in 82 games in his 3rd and 4th years in the league, or when he was 21 and 22 years old. Last season? He put up 30 points in just 42 games. People look at this season and officially deem him only a 50 point center, yet realize he scored the same amount of points he did previously in a health, 82 game season. Staal only played 62 games this year.

Not only are those respectable numbers, that show's progression. Staal is only 24 at the start of next season. He, like Gagner, are probably putting up 60 points with ease when they are 26, 27, 28 years old. He doesn't exactly have stellar line-mates either. While he's no longer struggling to produce offense with Kennedy and Cooke, I wouldn't exactly call him playing on a line with Steve Sullivan anything spectacular.

Fun fact? Staal put up something like 23 points in his final 21 games of the seasons or something like that. Once he got back into the line-up and was healthy, he was a monster.

So can we PLEASE stop with this hilariously stupid debate? The two honestly aren't comparable. No, there is no deal to be had involving Staal for Sam Gagner, unless Staal is signed to an extension. Even then, the deal makes no sense from a Pittsburgh perspective.

Throw Staal on another team, and he's a gurranteed 60 point, elite two-way centerman ala' Patrice Bergeron. He's probably got some seasons were he exceeds 70+. He'll likely never accomplish that in Pittsburgh, but if he ever did someone manage to go to Edmonton? Line-mates like Eberle or Hall have Staal eclipsing those marks with ease.

Jordan Staal is an elite player. Sam Gagner is not. Sam Gagner is a very respectable offensive player in the mold of a Stephen Weiss. While they both probably top out offensively around the same numbers, Jordan Staal is far superior because he's the more complete player.

Period.
- mochoson

Bravo. Richard doesn't have a clue on this topic.

Bravo. Richard doesn't have a clue on this topic.
- Emperor Filonius

It's a daunting task somedays, but I make my best attempt

Wow. Where do I start? Let me first say that I have nothing against Sam Gagne. He is a nice young player who may yet develop into something more.

That said, Richard, I'm wondering if you could have tried to make your point without coming off as such a pretentious doucheschnozzle? Well, I suppose you have to go with your strengths. Pens fans don't need a lecture on cap economics or player value, but its pretty clear that you do. So taking a page from your book, allow me to better educate YOU:

1. You can quote career point per game averages all you want. With young players, that is a rather irrelevant measure. I prefer to look at how young player progresses:
-Gagne has NEVER scored more than 20 goals in a season, Staal has already done so 4 times
-Gagne's points per game for his career by year: 0.62, 0.54, 0.60, 0.62, 0.63
-Staal's points per game for his career by year: 0.52, 0.34, 0.60, 0.60, 0.71, 0.81

Even a "thick" Penguin fan would notice that Gagne's points per game average has stagnated which Staal's continues to climb as he matures as a player. So even before we look at any intangibles, Staal is WELL ahead of Gagne from a statistical standpoint.
-You touched on ice time, so lets look at that from last year:
Gagner
ES TOI/Game: 14:40
PP TOI/Game: 2:27
SH TOI/Game: 0:02
Staal:
ES TOI/Game: 15:25
PP TOI/Game: 1:59
SH TOI/Game: 2:38

So yes, Staal gets more ice time, but less on the PP and Gagne plays in almost NO shorthanded situations. Staal's PP ice time was also significantly higher this year due to the fact that Crosby missed most of it. This is further evidence that when Staal DOES get top 6 time as he did this year, he's a superior player to Gagne.

Beyond all that, you keep ignoring the obvious fallacy in your premise by saying "3 years of Gagene is better than one year of Staal":

Bullpoop.

If the Penguins were rebuilding, as the Oilers are, this argument might have some merit. But despite their early exit this year, the Pens are squarely are in the middle of their window to win another cup. Gagne does not help in those efforts nearly to the extent Staal does. Staal brings a huge physical presence and eats huge minutes on the Pens PK, which was one of the top units in the league. Gagne can't do that for them...he's an offensive playmaker...

...and guess what Richard? THE PENGUINS ALREADY HAVE TWO OF THOSE GUYS!!!! You may have heard of them, they are named Crosby and Malkin. So what role is Gagne going to fill...tell me, educate me, I'm waiting? WHo takes those minute to anchor the PK? It won't be Gagne. Is Gagne suddenly going to become a Selke Trophe caliber 3rd line center that matches up against the other team's best line? I don't think so.

So yes, Staal has more value, even even for one year because he is a better fit on the team, and gives them a better chance to win another Stanley Cup. He's a proven player with playoff experience (another thing Gagne doesn't have) who has proven he can come up big in pressure situations.

I don't honestly know what the Penguins plan to do this offseason.

Maybe they will ask Staal to move to wing if he wants more top 6 minutes.
Maybe they will find a way to sign him long term.
Maybe they won't, and they will have to trade him...even if they do, I'm certain it will be for a shutdown quality defenseman and a defensive forward. It WON'T be for Sam Gagne.

So do all of us "thick" Penguin fans a favor.

Shut your pie hole and stick to things that you have a clue about, which evidently doesn't include real world player values.

Good day.

It's a daunting task somedays, but I make my best attempt
- mochoson

See my own response above.

Jordan Staal is an elite player. Sam Gagner is not. Sam Gagner is a very respectable offensive player in the mold of a Stephen Weiss. While they both probably top out offensively around the same numbers, Jordan Staal is far superior because he's the more complete player.

Period.
- mochoson

Ah Cat man you finally say something I agree with yet I wanted to add to it. You answered your question. Why would Pittsburg trade Staal is answered earlier in your own statement when you said playing with guys like cooke and sullivan aren't exactly amazing. Staal is an expensive two way asset for playing third line minutes. Pittsburgh might be okay with that or they might do like other teams and fill the role with a Draper type player and grab assets that improve the their non centers. The extension might be really expensive if he plays a full year this year.

Also you answered another point gagner is only 22. Although you say he has more power play time I think we can agree non power play time in pittsburg has been better the last 4 years than pp in edmonton is. Edmonton has finished 30, 30 and 29 when gagner is 20, 21 and 22. No one knows what he is capable of. He might not be the defensive player that Staal is but there is a chance he can become a solid offensive center of merit. 22 is too young to tell and he has proven in the game he got 8 points that anything is possible with him.

I don't think we have seen either players best season but what I do know is that gagner is going to be cheaper to keep on the team for the next two years even if pitts think they can resign him. There is limit to how much you can pay your third line players before you become a Calgary GM (lets ignore the horcoff contract on this one).

Wow. Where do I start? Let me first say that I have nothing against Sam Gagne. He is a nice young player who may yet develop into something more.

That said, Richard, I'm wondering if you could have tried to make your point without coming off as such a pretentious doucheschnozzle? Well, I suppose you have to go with your strengths. Pens fans don't need a lecture on cap economics or player value, but its pretty clear that you do. So taking a page from your book, allow me to better educate YOU:

1. You can quote career point per game averages all you want. With young players, that is a rather irrelevant measure. I prefer to look at how young player progresses:
-Gagne has NEVER scored more than 20 goals in a season, Staal has already done so 4 times
-Gagne's points per game for his career by year: 0.62, 0.54, 0.60, 0.62, 0.63
-Staal's points per game for his career by year: 0.52, 0.34, 0.60, 0.60, 0.71, 0.81

Even a "thick" Penguin fan would notice that Gagne's points per game average has stagnated which Staal's continues to climb as he matures as a player. So even before we look at any intangibles, Staal is WELL ahead of Gagne from a statistical standpoint.
-You touched on ice time, so lets look at that from last year:
Gagner
ES TOI/Game: 14:40
PP TOI/Game: 2:27
SH TOI/Game: 0:02
Staal:
ES TOI/Game: 15:25
PP TOI/Game: 1:59
SH TOI/Game: 2:38

So yes, Staal gets more ice time, but less on the PP and Gagne plays in almost NO shorthanded situations. Staal's PP ice time was also significantly higher this year due to the fact that Crosby missed most of it. This is further evidence that when Staal DOES get top 6 time as he did this year, he's a superior player to Gagne.

Beyond all that, you keep ignoring the obvious fallacy in your premise by saying "3 years of Gagene is better than one year of Staal":

Bullpoop.

If the Penguins were rebuilding, as the Oilers are, this argument might have some merit. But despite their early exit this year, the Pens are squarely are in the middle of their window to win another cup. Gagne does not help in those efforts nearly to the extent Staal does. Staal brings a huge physical presence and eats huge minutes on the Pens PK, which was one of the top units in the league. Gagne can't do that for them...he's an offensive playmaker...

...and guess what Richard? THE PENGUINS ALREADY HAVE TWO OF THOSE GUYS!!!! You may have heard of them, they are named Crosby and Malkin. So what role is Gagne going to fill...tell me, educate me, I'm waiting? WHo takes those minute to anchor the PK? It won't be Gagne. Is Gagne suddenly going to become a Selke Trophe caliber 3rd line center that matches up against the other team's best line? I don't think so.

So yes, Staal has more value, even even for one year because he is a better fit on the team, and gives them a better chance to win another Stanley Cup. He's a proven player with playoff experience (another thing Gagne doesn't have) who has proven he can come up big in pressure situations.

I don't honestly know what the Penguins plan to do this offseason.

Maybe they will ask Staal to move to wing if he wants more top 6 minutes.
Maybe they will find a way to sign him long term.
Maybe they won't, and they will have to trade him...even if they do, I'm certain it will be for a shutdown quality defenseman and a defensive forward. It WON'T be for Sam Gagne.

So do all of us "thick" Penguin fans a favor.

Shut your pie hole and stick to things that you have a clue about, which evidently doesn't include real world player values.

Good day.
- Emperor Filonius

Well said Filonius!

This is a pretty funny blog. To compare Gagner to Staal is like comparing a skateboard (Gagner) to my Mustang (Staal). I like Gagner, but it seems to me that he was drafted far to early in that draft. He benefited far too much from Patrick Kane and is really more second round draft talent. (mind you it was a terrible draft). I can see Pittsburgh doing a trade that involved Gagner but your second round pick this year and Paajarvi would be going to them as well...maybe even Omark or Pitlick too. Staal's not coming to any team cheap. Whoever gets him, is going to overpay.
- Suckitcrosby

I'd prefer the skateboard.

I don't smoke, live in Oshawa or own enough plaid shirts, any AC/DC albums or drink Molson Canadian or Budweiser to be able to care for Mustangs.

I've never seen a blog this big of a joke...

I've never seen a blog this big of a joke...
- PensMalkin71

You never visit Matt Berry do you?

I've never seen a blog this big of a joke...
- PensMalkin71

Really? First time on HB?
This isn't a lot different than some of the Pens fans saying Gagner is a 3rd or 4th rate NHL player, it's just bias the other way (a lot) Obviously Staal is the better all round player. I'm just sick of people writing off Gagner as being worthless. His career is far from done. Playing on a piss poor defensive team Gagner spends a lot more time trying to get the puck than in the offensive zone putting up points.

Really? First time on HB?
This isn't a lot different than some of the Pens fans saying Gagner is a 3rd or 4th rate NHL player, it's just bias the other way (a lot) Obviously Staal is the better all round player. I'm just sick of people writing off Gagner as being worthless. His career is far from done. Playing on a piss poor defensive team Gagner spends a lot more time trying to get the puck than in the offensive zone putting up points.
- abware

Gagner is the 12th most productive draft pick since the lockout.

I in no way mean he's worth Staal in a trade... just pointing out how underated he is when people go on like you said.

In other news Dubnyk with an easy shutout vs Kazakhstan. The Kazakhs actually looked pretty good for the first 2 periods, not sure if they disappeared for the 3rd or if Canada finally showed what they can do.

Gagner is the 12th most productive draft pick since the lockout.

I in no way mean he's worth Staal in a trade... just pointing out how underated he is when people go on like you said.
- robin_steele264

Points are a useless stat, it's all about perception

as a centerman one stat proves how better.. there point per game is pretty close.. But there plus minus is not. Staal plus 53 and Sam minus 43... then lets look at face off percentages..staal wins there and shooting percentage Stall wins with a 3% diffence.. I dont know but a bigger center with a better plus minus and shooting %.
Did i mention BIGGER and that what the Oilers need.. Staal if 10 times a better player than sam... and Im a die hard Oilers fan.

What would it cost to acquire Tuuka Rask? Maybe Hemsky, prospect and early to mid round pick?
- OilerFanFromBC

Andrew Raycroft

as a centerman one stat proves how better.. there point per game is pretty close.. But there plus minus is not. Staal plus 53 and Sam minus 43... then lets look at face off percentages..staal wins there and shooting percentage Stall wins with a 3% diffence.. I dont know but a bigger center with a better plus minus and shooting %.
Did i mention BIGGER and that what the Oilers need.. Staal if 10 times a better player than sam... and Im a die hard Oilers fan.
- chillininoil

10 times better?

Id love Staal on the Oilers... cant think of a better 2nd line C for this young team.

But 10 times better is idiotic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_4VjAXhQ7g

Wow. Where do I start? Let me first say that I have nothing against Sam Gagne. He is a nice young player who may yet develop into something more.

That said, Richard, I'm wondering if you could have tried to make your point without coming off as such a pretentious doucheschnozzle? Well, I suppose you have to go with your strengths. Pens fans don't need a lecture on cap economics or player value, but its pretty clear that you do. So taking a page from your book, allow me to better educate YOU:

1. You can quote career point per game averages all you want. With young players, that is a rather irrelevant measure. I prefer to look at how young player progresses:
-Gagne has NEVER scored more than 20 goals in a season, Staal has already done so 4 times
-Gagne's points per game for his career by year: 0.62, 0.54, 0.60, 0.62, 0.63
-Staal's points per game for his career by year: 0.52, 0.34, 0.60, 0.60, 0.71, 0.81

Even a "thick" Penguin fan would notice that Gagne's points per game average has stagnated which Staal's continues to climb as he matures as a player. So even before we look at any intangibles, Staal is WELL ahead of Gagne from a statistical standpoint.
-You touched on ice time, so lets look at that from last year:
Gagner
ES TOI/Game: 14:40
PP TOI/Game: 2:27
SH TOI/Game: 0:02
Staal:
ES TOI/Game: 15:25
PP TOI/Game: 1:59
SH TOI/Game: 2:38

So yes, Staal gets more ice time, but less on the PP and Gagne plays in almost NO shorthanded situations. Staal's PP ice time was also significantly higher this year due to the fact that Crosby missed most of it. This is further evidence that when Staal DOES get top 6 time as he did this year, he's a superior player to Gagne.

Beyond all that, you keep ignoring the obvious fallacy in your premise by saying "3 years of Gagene is better than one year of Staal":

Bullpoop.

If the Penguins were rebuilding, as the Oilers are, this argument might have some merit. But despite their early exit this year, the Pens are squarely are in the middle of their window to win another cup. Gagne does not help in those efforts nearly to the extent Staal does. Staal brings a huge physical presence and eats huge minutes on the Pens PK, which was one of the top units in the league. Gagne can't do that for them...he's an offensive playmaker...

...and guess what Richard? THE PENGUINS ALREADY HAVE TWO OF THOSE GUYS!!!! You may have heard of them, they are named Crosby and Malkin. So what role is Gagne going to fill...tell me, educate me, I'm waiting? WHo takes those minute to anchor the PK? It won't be Gagne. Is Gagne suddenly going to become a Selke Trophe caliber 3rd line center that matches up against the other team's best line? I don't think so.

So yes, Staal has more value, even even for one year because he is a better fit on the team, and gives them a better chance to win another Stanley Cup. He's a proven player with playoff experience (another thing Gagne doesn't have) who has proven he can come up big in pressure situations.

I don't honestly know what the Penguins plan to do this offseason.

Maybe they will ask Staal to move to wing if he wants more top 6 minutes.
Maybe they will find a way to sign him long term.
Maybe they won't, and they will have to trade him...even if they do, I'm certain it will be for a shutdown quality defenseman and a defensive forward. It WON'T be for Sam Gagne.

So do all of us "thick" Penguin fans a favor.

Shut your pie hole and stick to things that you have a clue about, which evidently doesn't include real world player values.

Good day.
- Emperor Filonius

When did Staal become a Selke caliber player?

When did Staal become a Selke caliber player?
- Starbuck

.....when he got nominated for a Selke

.....when he got nominated for a Selke
- mochoson

Once in six years makes him a Selke caliber forward.

Once in six years makes him a Selke caliber forward.
- Starbuck

Considering he's only gotten better and better every season he's been in the league?

Yes.

Considering he's only gotten better and better every season he's been in the league?

Yes.
- mochoson

Why no nomination this year if he's better than 2010?

Tough call.

I watched Vasilevski play sweden in calgary. He was outstanding. Just recently I watched the USA/Sweden U-18 gold medal game online and Dansk wasn't looking that sharp in a big game.

3 QUESTIONS:

Do we need to draft another winger or another goalie for the system?
How does Bunz compare to Dansky/Vasilevski?
Will H.Samuelsson fall past the 2nd round?
- kelholtz

According to Stu Macgregor he is a late first rounder:
http://oilersnation.com/2...ntent-macgregor-checks-in

Why no nomination this year if he's better than 2010?
- Starbuck

No offense, but how much have you even watched Staal play?