I may have exaggerated with this statement.
- bradleyc4

I may have exaggerated with this statement.
- bradleyc4

Yes. That title is on hold for one of J. Toews or D. Keith.

Surprisingly civil discussion overall, despite scoob's involvement. So thank you.

Yes. That title is on hold for one of J. Toews or D. Keith.
- OrangeBlack27

How dare you.

Surprisingly civil discussion overall, despite scoob's involvement. So thank you.
- bradleyc4

Surprisingly civil discussion overall, despite scoob's involvement. So thank you.
- bradleyc4

Good convo.

It's your opinion, enjoy it. The numbers he's put up warrant top-3 discussion.

But to think he's up there with Hasek and Roy as the best goaltender to ever play (in terms of pure talent) is laughable, imo.
- bradleyc4

That's fine if you feel that Hasek and Roy are better. That's certainly not an insane opinion. But to say that Brodeur isn't right there with them, is an insane opinion.

Surprisingly civil discussion overall, despite scoob's involvement. So thank you.
- bradleyc4

It's like old time HockeyBuzz- the reason I started coming here in the first place.

That's fine if you feel that Hasek and Roy are better. That's certainly not an insane opinion. But to say that Brodeur isn't right there with them, is an insane opinion.
- MJL

best post ever

Let Carle and Jagr go. Use the money to go after Suter. With Bryzgalov on the team I would be in favor of dealing Bobrovsky. At the deadline I would be making a deal with the Wild that sends out JVR for picks and Cal Clutterbuck. As well to sign Sammy Pahlsson as a cheap UFA.


- flyer_nutter

I have no issue with getting Suter. He's a very good player. But if your not a fan of players who aren't physical, you won't like Suter. As far as Clutterbuck, I'm definitely in favor of adding a player like him to the roster. But for JVR? They better be some pretty high draft picks. Zero interest in Pahlsson.

All I've seen is blanket statements based on the outcome of the Series, that Laviolette was outcoached. If you've read all my posts throughout the Series, I posted in detail what areas the Flyers are being outplayed in and what I feel are the main reasons for the loss. I've yet to read anything specifically, including in your posts, how Laviolette was outcoached.
- MJL

I know this is kind of a delayed response, but unfortunatley my employer does not recognize the day after the Flyers getting eliminated from the playoffs as a holiday.


One example that comes to mind first is the huge gap we had between the forwards and the defense during the entire series. It forced the d-men into making very long, low percentage stretch passes that were easily disrupted by the Devils "layered" defense. That was an obvious issue that many pointed out, and it never changed during the entire series.

I know you can argue that the players were the ones not executing properly, and that is certainly true. But I feel some amount of the blame has to fall to the coach for not coming up with some sort of adjustment or change in strategy to address this, or for not getting the players to execute whatever he did come up with.

To me, when one team completely buys into the team's system and executes it flawlessly, as the Devils did, that is a sign of good coaching. For whatever reason, Lavy was unable to get the Flyers to do anything to address the gap, or otherwise help the Flyers get out of their own zone. Obviously I wasn't at practice, so I can't judge his intent, or evaluate what he said to the team. I can only go by the results on the ice, and they pretty much speak for themselves. The Flyers were not able to do anything to counter the strategies the Devils were using to shut them down and disrupt their game plan. Making those types of adjustments, and more importantly getting the players to buy in and execute them is a huge part of the coaches job.

It seems pretty clear to me that one coach had his team playing at a very high level and executing his systems to perfection, and one did not. And the one that did not was not able to make any significant progress at correcting the issue throughout the course of the series. To me, that's certainly one way to define being out-coached.

I know this is kind of a delayed response, but unfortunatley my employer does not recognize the day after the Flyers getting eliminated from the playoffs as a holiday.


One example that comes to mind first is the huge gap we had between the forwards and the defense during the entire series. It forced the d-men into making very long, low percentage stretch passes that were easily disrupted by the Devils "layered" defense. That was an obvious issue that many pointed out, and it never changed during the entire series.

I know you can argue that the players were the ones not executing properly, and that is certainly true. But I feel some amount of the blame has to fall to the coach for not coming up with some sort of adjustment or change in strategy to address this, or for not getting the players to execute whatever he did come up with.

To me, when one team completely buys into the team's system and executes it flawlessly, as the Devils did, that is a sign of good coaching. For whatever reason, Lavy was unable to get the Flyers to do anything to address the gap, or otherwise help the Flyers get out of their own zone. Obviously I wasn't at practice, so I can't judge his intent, or evaluate what he said to the team. I can only go by the results on the ice, and they pretty much speak for themselves. The Flyers were not able to do anything to counter the strategies the Devils were using to shut them down and disrupt their game plan. Making those types of adjustments, and more importantly getting the players to buy in and execute them is a huge part of the coaches job.

It seems pretty clear to me that one coach had his team playing at a very high level and executing his systems to perfection, and one did not. And the one that did not was not able to make any significant progress at correcting the issue throughout the course of the series. To me, that's certainly one way to define being out-coached.
- BringBack25

I see all of those issues as player issues, not Coaching issues. Ultimately a Coach always takes the blame. But the reality is, that players make a Coach look good, and they make him look bad. And the Flyers players made Laviolette look bad. All Season long, were praising the team and it's youth, and the changes made, and how great Laviolette and his system is. Now they lose a Series where they were badly outplayed. Where the Coach got nothing from it's top players and veterans. Where the Rookies looked overmatched. And now he got outcoached? I think the reality is that the Flyers faced a better team, and a bad matchup. And some of it's players just aren't ready yet.

Gameday avatars packed away for the summer?
- BulliesPhan87

I think it has some merit. I'd like to see a style that is more catered to the defensive side of the puck. But what happened in the NJ series can happen regardless of what style you play. Laviolette won a Cup playing the style he wants to play.
- MJL

I think its fair to call into question if that style is going to be as effective with the NHL reverting back to the clutching and grabbing style. The Flyers forecheck and forwards thrived on racing the defensemen to the puck in the offensive zone and getting on the forecheck.....hard to do when your getting held up.

Put Hasek or Roy behind Stevens, Niedermayer, Daneyko and Rafalski and tell me how many cups they win!
- ggunky

About the same, I'd think. Roy didn't exactly play with scrubs his whole career, and while Hasek did, they were defenisve, trapping scrubs.

I think its fair to call into question if that style is going to be as effective with the NHL reverting back to the clutching and grabbing style. The Flyers forecheck and forwards thrived on racing the defensemen to the puck in the offensive zone and getting on the forecheck.....hard to do when your getting held up.
- Just5

The NHL is not reverting back to the clutching and grabbing style. Go back and watch some of the games when that was the style of play. It's no where close to that era.

I see all of those issues as player issues, not Coaching issues. Ultimately a Coach always takes the blame. But the reality is, that players make a Coach look good, and they make him look bad. And the Flyers players made Laviolette look bad. All Season long, were praising the team and it's youth, and the changes made, and how great Laviolette and his system is. Now they lose a Series where they were badly outplayed. Where the Coach got nothing from it's top players and veterans. Where the Rookies looked overmatched. And now he got outcoached? I think the reality is that the Flyers faced a better team, and a bad matchup. And some of it's players just aren't ready yet.
- MJL

If a coach and his system don't have any impact, and it's all about the players, how do you explain what happens when a coach is fired because a team is losing, and once a new coach is hired, the same team all of a sudden becomes good? For example see St. Louis this year, and Devils last year... It because they impliment a different system, and coach the team in a way that works for them. If all coaches know all the systems, then this shouldnt happen right?

The NHL is not reverting back to the clutching and grabbing style. Go back and watch some of the games when that was the style of play. It's no where close to that era.
- MJL

unless you're playing the rangers. they mastered the art of just enough interference to where it's effective, but uncalled. complete bullpoop IMO, but it works for them

I see all of those issues as player issues, not Coaching issues. Ultimately a Coach always takes the blame. But the reality is, that players make a Coach look good, and they make him look bad. And the Flyers players made Laviolette look bad. All Season long, were praising the team and it's youth, and the changes made, and how great Laviolette and his system is. Now they lose a Series where they were badly outplayed. Where the Coach got nothing from it's top players and veterans. Where the Rookies looked overmatched. And now he got outcoached? I think the reality is that the Flyers faced a better team, and a bad matchup. And some of it's players just aren't ready yet.
- MJL

To me, it boils down to: do you continue to use the system that got you here even if it's a very poor match-up with your opponent, or try to change on the fly to better go after your opponent's weaknesses?

I really don't know what the answer is, but am leaning towards the former.

Timonen "Our Year". Poor Guy.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcs...this-was-the-flyers-year/

To me, it boils down to: do you continue to use the system that got you here even if it's a very poor match-up with your opponent, or try to change on the fly to better go after your opponent's weaknesses?

I really don't know what the answer is, but am leaning towards the former.
- bradleyc4

if the flyers were healthy and had any jump left in their legs, systems would have been a moot point. they weren't the devils played very well and their system LOOKED superior. not saying it is or isn't. both are very effective

I see all of those issues as player issues, not Coaching issues. Ultimately a Coach always takes the blame. But the reality is, that players make a Coach look good, and they make him look bad. And the Flyers players made Laviolette look bad. All Season long, were praising the team and it's youth, and the changes made, and how great Laviolette and his system is. Now they lose a Series where they were badly outplayed. Where the Coach got nothing from it's top players and veterans. Where the Rookies looked overmatched. And now he got outcoached? I think the reality is that the Flyers faced a better team, and a bad matchup. And some of it's players just aren't ready yet.
- MJL

I don't completely disagree with you. I have said many times the players need to get their fair share of the blame. But the fact is that Lavy's teams have now lost to teams playing this style two playoffs in a row. So it's more than just a bad matchup, or players not ready yet. Lavy needs to figure out how to get his teams to be successful against teams that play this way. Until he does that, people will continue (and rightfully so imo) to assert that he is out-coached when his teams loose series like these.

And for the record, I have praised the team, it's youth, the personnel changes, etc. But I've never been wild about Lavy's system, and certainly have not praised it. I think it's high risk/high reward, and gives up too many quality scoring chances. I would much prefer to see a more defensively oriented system. But whatever system Lavy coaches, he needs to do it in such a way that his teams can be successful against the Devils, Bruins, and Rangers of the world. And that hasn't happened yet.

so before i was rooting for the caps to win b'c it would be a better match up for the flyers, but now i'm rooting for them so they can improve the flyers' draft spot

I see all of those issues as player issues, not Coaching issues. Ultimately a Coach always takes the blame. But the reality is, that players make a Coach look good, and they make him look bad. And the Flyers players made Laviolette look bad. All Season long, were praising the team and it's youth, and the changes made, and how great Laviolette and his system is. Now they lose a Series where they were badly outplayed. Where the Coach got nothing from it's top players and veterans. Where the Rookies looked overmatched. And now he got outcoached? I think the reality is that the Flyers faced a better team, and a bad matchup. And some of it's players just aren't ready yet.
- MJL

We were not praising Lavas system when we ran into the Rangers all season. You posted in here about how you'd like a tweak of Lava's system and it's not your favorite. We've had discussions in here about that. If coaching/systems isn't part of the problem....the Flyers should've have had enough energy to muster a win against the Rangers and it didn't happen. I feel he and the coaching staff share the blame in the series. The Devils played just like the Rangers, even better though.

Timonen "Our Year". Poor Guy.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcs...this-was-the-flyers-year/
- stveshdy

Brutal, this isn't the first time he's said he's worried about his chances to win. I want a cup for Timo so bad.