Ok 5 in 25. Just as many as the Bruins. And that's still fewer than the Leafs in the last 6. Or the Hawks in the last 15, Or the Habs, Rangers over 25, and most other teams. People act like the Pens have had 3 good years ever when in fact over the last generation been one of the more succesful franchises. 3 cups, 4 finals, 6 trips to ECF. How many other teams have had as many, if not far more top 5 picks over that period and accomplished far less? Yes they have been lucky, but also deserve credit for making the right moves, picking up the right secondary pieces and assebling good teams.
- schiefer466

You make a lot of great points. But the last decade includes 4 straight playoff misses to start it in which they couldn't get 8,000 people a night to show up for a hockey game. There are lots of reasons for that, but it's a fact.

The best argument against the Pens is that they can't put a championship team (or even a competitive team) together without multiple top 5 picks, including many overall #1's. I don't know how old you are, but I remember the Pens from the 80's that were a laughing stock. When they're good they're great, but when they're bad they're awful. Many people define great franchises as being consistently sucessful over a long period of time; the Pens ebb and flow.

You can't argue with championships, but you have to take the good with the bad.

Well I haven't seen it when I read back? Just calling it what it is from what I see. Yeah Martin has been bad but pages of posts on him?
- Just5

Same thing that happened with Bryzgalov for you earlier. One guy getting paid a lot, not earning the check. Easier to hate on that than Malkin who got us a Conn Smythe before and Crosby who has brought the Hart and captained the Cup. Whether good or bad, those moments make it harder for us to get mad at them, whereas Martin has done nothing of the sort. For similar reasons, I can't find it in my heart to ever get ticked at Talbot...

Well I haven't seen it when I read back? Just calling it what it is from what I see. Yeah Martin has been bad but pages of posts on him?
- Just5

Quite a few slams on Martin, not too many on Crosby. He is struggling too though. He is having his problems defensively. His emotions seem skewed too high as well with an inability to control them for some reason.

You make a lot of great points. But the last decade includes 4 straight playoff misses to start it in which they couldn't get 8,000 people a night to show up for a hockey game. There are lots of reasons for that, but it's a fact.

The best argument against the Pens is that they can't put a championship team (or even a competitive team) together without multiple top 5 picks, including many overall #1's. I don't know how old you are, but I remember the Pens from the 80's that were a laughing stock. When they're good they're great, but when they're bad they're awful. Many people define great franchises as being consistently sucessful over a long period of time; the Pens ebb and flow.

You can't argue with championships, but you have to take the good with the bad.
- snake17

The first 2 were teams build on good trades and not top draft picks. Francis, Samuelsson x2, Murphy, Coffey, Tocchet, Barasso, Stevens, all traded for. Recchi was drafted in the 60's. The only top picks on the team were Mario and Jagr. And again, top 5 picks guarantees nothing. Look at Ottawa, and more so the Isles and Thrashers/Jets. Shero has done a great job making good trades to turn them into a great team. Which is why they're still a good team after losing guys like Hossa, Guerin, Gonchar, Gill, Scuderi, Fedotenko and on down the line.

One odd thing about this year than other years, every team has rather glaring weakness. Ours is our defense. It's very average after Letang. The Flyers have their goaltending concerns and their young age. The Rangers: Only New Jersey has won a Cup scoring as little as they do in how many years? St Louis: not enough scoring. Detroit: old, small up front, bottom half for both PP and PK. Vancouver: solid, but arguably their best player is out indefinitely. New Jersey, their defensemen and age of goalies. Chicago: goaltending. Guess that leaves Nashville, who has added a crap-load with little time to mesh and Boston who has already barked up the tree once and now has lost Horton.

One thing for certain, my Pens over Nashville in 6 is not going along a good path

You make a lot of great points. But the last decade includes 4 straight playoff misses to start it in which they couldn't get 8,000 people a night to show up for a hockey game. There are lots of reasons for that, but it's a fact.

The best argument against the Pens is that they can't put a championship team (or even a competitive team) together without multiple top 5 picks, including many overall #1's. I don't know how old you are, but I remember the Pens from the 80's that were a laughing stock. When they're good they're great, but when they're bad they're awful. Many people define great franchises as being consistently sucessful over a long period of time; the Pens ebb and flow.

You can't argue with championships, but you have to take the good with the bad.
- snake17

I think the lowest attendance was in the mid twelves after the team sold off all the talent in the early 2000's. I think Mellon Arena had a capacity of 16+. soooo something like 75% capacity after the team sells off all the talent. I'd say that's not that bad considering Richard Tarnstrom led them in scoring one of those years. Furthermore.....missing the playoffs for 4 years out of 22.....c'mon....not a lot of "ebb an flow" in the last 2 decades. How many franchises would take that? Enjoy your win and let's not defame the history of the pens because you feel like rubbing it in.....

The first 2 were teams build on good trades and not top draft picks. Francis, Samuelsson x2, Murphy, Coffey, Tocchet, Barasso, Stevens, all traded for. Recchi was drafted in the 60's. The only top picks on the team were Mario and Jagr. And again, top 5 picks guarantees nothing. Look at Ottawa, and more so the Isles and Thrashers/Jets. Shero has done a great job making good trades to turn them into a great team. Which is why they're still a good team after losing guys like Hossa, Guerin, Gonchar, Gill, Scuderi, Fedotenko and on down the line.
- schiefer466

But through and through the Penguins have been built around their high draft picks. Take out Mario, Jagr, Crosby, and Malkin...where is this franchise? It's likely that in 20 years all four of those players are HOFers; name another team that was blessed with that amount of riches in such a short time?

No doubt that Craig Patrick and Ray Shero have done a tremendous job adding players; no one wins it alone. But to many (not all) the sign of a truly great franchise in winning in spite of middle of the road 1st round picks.

Where were all the great trades and player additions when there was no Lemieux and no Crosby? A team has to be pretty bad to have the #1, #2, and #1 picks in 3 consecutive years. And that's fine; they did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. You just can't completely gloss over the fact that the team was horrible in order to get those picks.

The guy who is given $75 and turns it into $100 still turned it into $100. But he had a lot more to work with than the guy who had $25 and did the same thing.

Carkner gets 1 game for jumping a guy and continuously pounding on him... What a joke... Asham could get 5 games or a fine, I have no idea what to expect from the joke that Shanahan has become.

Carkner gets 1 game for jumping a guy and continuously pounding on him... What a joke... Asham could get 5 games or a fine, I have no idea what to expect from the joke that Shanahan has become.
- rival22

Asham being suspended is immaterial, more importantly is how many games is Neal going to get.

Carkner gets 1 game for jumping a guy and continuously pounding on him... What a joke... Asham could get 5 games or a fine, I have no idea what to expect from the joke that Shanahan has become.
- rival22

I like the Hagelin number. The Carkner one not so much. Adams will probably get one game, which seems right to me and Asham I have no clue because Shanahan is not very consistent.

Asham being suspended is immaterial, more importantly is how many games is Neal going to get.
- PLindbergh31

Zero.

But through and through the Penguins have been built around their high draft picks. Take out Mario, Jagr, Crosby, and Malkin...where is this franchise? It's likely that in 20 years all four of those players are HOFers; name another team that was blessed with that amount of riches in such a short time?

No doubt that Craig Patrick and Ray Shero have done a tremendous job adding players; no one wins it alone. But to many (not all) the sign of a truly great franchise in winning in spite of middle of the road 1st round picks.

Where were all the great trades and player additions when there was no Lemieux and no Crosby? A team has to be pretty bad to have the #1, #2, and #1 picks in 3 consecutive years. And that's fine; they did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. You just can't completely gloss over the fact that the team was horrible in order to get those picks.

The guy who is given $75 and turns it into $100 still turned it into $100. But he had a lot more to work with than the guy who had $25 and did the same thing.
- snake17

Quebec. Sakic, Sundin, Lindros (traded for Forsberg). And those first 2 penguins cups were with jagr as a rookie/sophomore. And considering the pens success those years in the playoffs with mario missing significant time due to injury, they were fine. Francis, Coffey, Recchi, Samuelsson X2, Murphy, Mullen, Trottier, Stevens, Barrasso. That's still a stacked team minus mario.

And again you are ignoring the fact the 03 pick was a trade up, and the 05 pick wasn't a regular lottery. He could have just as easily gone to 5 other teams, and could have gone to any team. Sid was luck, huge luck. But he could have ended up in Columbus, Buffalo, New York, just as easily.

But through and through the Penguins have been built around their high draft picks. Take out Mario, Jagr, Crosby, and Malkin...where is this franchise? It's likely that in 20 years all four of those players are HOFers; name another team that was blessed with that amount of riches in such a short time?

No doubt that Craig Patrick and Ray Shero have done a tremendous job adding players; no one wins it alone. But to many (not all) the sign of a truly great franchise in winning in spite of middle of the road 1st round picks.

Where were all the great trades and player additions when there was no Lemieux and no Crosby? A team has to be pretty bad to have the #1, #2, and #1 picks in 3 consecutive years. And that's fine; they did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. You just can't completely gloss over the fact that the team was horrible in order to get those picks.

The guy who is given $75 and turns it into $100 still turned it into $100. But he had a lot more to work with than the guy who had $25 and did the same thing.
- snake17

Winning is winning. You don't get a bigger Stanley Cup by not having top 5 draft picks on your team. This argument against Pittsburgh is trite and old, and I wish Flyer fans would stop making it

Edit: And when the Flyers sucked in the early 90s, if they could actually have drafted anyone decent (hey, let's pass up Jagr for... Mike Ricci I think it was?) with their high picks, they may have won something during the decade

Zero.
- ikyan

Sid was luck, huge luck. But he could have ended up in Columbus, Buffalo, New York, just as easily.
- schiefer466

Columbus would have found a way to pick Brule. It was inevitable that they found a flop.

I'm the first guy out there to admit that Toronto sucks, so feel free to enlighten me. I, like most other fans not of Pittsburgh are in here because of that brutal display today. This is compounded by the ridiculous outburst of your owner just over a year ago.
- golfingsince

I really don't know why this guy gets mistaken for as Leaf fan all the time...

Golfing since 1967...maybe it's just me but that doesn't sound like a guy that likes the Leafs.

Winning is winning. You don't get a bigger Stanley Cup by not having top 5 draft picks on your team. This argument against Pittsburgh is trite and old, and I wish Flyer fans would stop making it
- eayost

A lot of those arguments are out of jealousy. If this series ends in a few days with a Flyers win, we won't hear as much of it, but rather that you beat us out.

But through and through the Penguins have been built around their high draft picks. Take out Mario, Jagr, Crosby, and Malkin...where is this franchise? It's likely that in 20 years all four of those players are HOFers; name another team that was blessed with that amount of riches in such a short time?

No doubt that Craig Patrick and Ray Shero have done a tremendous job adding players; no one wins it alone. But to many (not all) the sign of a truly great franchise in winning in spite of middle of the road 1st round picks.

Where were all the great trades and player additions when there was no Lemieux and no Crosby? A team has to be pretty bad to have the #1, #2, and #1 picks in 3 consecutive years. And that's fine; they did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. You just can't completely gloss over the fact that the team was horrible in order to get those picks.

The guy who is given $75 and turns it into $100 still turned it into $100. But he had a lot more to work with than the guy who had $25 and did the same thing.
- snake17

So you want to go back pre Mario and rip on the franchise. That's laughable.

What do you want them to do apologize for being bad at the right time? Then after they drafted those players they built winners. Jagr fell to 5th because other teams didn't think they could get him out of the country but Patrick got it done.

The Pens weren't/aren't blessed with a market size of Philly and New York and they couldn't spend whatever it takes to get a player.

A lot of those arguments are out of jealousy. If this series ends in a few days with a Flyers win, we won't hear as much of it, but rather that you beat us out.
- ikyan

I've been watching the Penguins as a Flyers fan for 30 years...trust me, there is nothing to be jealous of.

If you read everything I've said on the subject rather than just one post you'd realize I'm talking about all the forgotten years that Penguins fans never seem to talk about. My argument the entire time is that you can't argue with results (3 cup wins is 3 cup wins) but you have to take the good with the bad. A lot of Penguins fans act like the franchise has been a winner forever; I'm arguing with that.

Winning is winning. You don't get a bigger Stanley Cup by not having top 5 draft picks on your team. This argument against Pittsburgh is trite and old, and I wish Flyer fans would stop making it

- eayost

That isn't the point I'm arguing.

Quite a few slams on Martin, not too many on Crosby. He is struggling too though. He is having his problems defensively. His emotions seem skewed too high as well with an inability to control them for some reason.
- powerhouse

In that he isn't really playing any.

The team is playing terrible team defense. No one is taking responsibility for anything. They are not, and have not been, difficult to play against for the vast majority of the season.

You know what's really stupid?

Glad you asked...

When these 2 teams get together and everyone runs out of arguments so it inevitably turns into a war of words with one side touting 1975 and another touting top 5 draft picks. It's really old and stupid.

We got our ass handed to us again, sometimes you just need to accept that. On the other side of the fence maybe you don't need to be in here rubbing it in when the opposing team has owned you in the post season recently.

I don't care if people want to jab back and forth but try and keep it somewhat current. Hockey fans have short memories and big mouths. If you don't win the cup your first, second and third round wins mean nothing. It's just the way it is.

I think the Flyers have a great team and a real chance this year if and when they close us out. Focus on that and not who the Penguins drafted in '04.

I've been watching the Penguins as a Flyers fan for 30 years...trust me, there is nothing to be jealous of.

If you read everything I've said on the subject rather than just one post you'd realize I'm talking about all the forgotten years that Penguins fans never seem to talk about. My argument the entire time is that you can't argue with results (3 cup wins is 3 cup wins) but you have to take the good with the bad. A lot of Penguins fans act like the franchise has been a winner forever; I'm arguing with that.
- snake17

No franchise is a winner forever.

You know what's really stupid?

Glad you asked...

When these 2 teams get together and everyone runs out of arguments so it inevitably turns into a war of words with one side touting 1975 and another touting top 5 draft picks. It's really old and stupid.

We got our ass handed to us again, sometimes you just need to accept that. On the other side of the fence maybe you don't need to be in here rubbing it in when the opposing team has owned you in the post season recently.

I don't care if people want to jab back and forth but try and keep it somewhat current. Hockey fans have short memories and big mouths. If you don't win the cup your first, second and third round wins mean nothing. It's just the way it is.

I think the Flyers have a great team and a real chance this year if and when they close us out. Focus on that and not who the Penguins drafted in '04.
- canadianpenfan

What did I miss?

So you want to go back pre Mario and rip on the franchise. That's laughable.

What do you want them to do apologize for being bad at the right time? Then after they drafted those players they built winners. Jagr fell to 5th because other teams didn't think they could get him out of the country but Patrick got it done.

The Pens weren't/aren't blessed with a market size of Philly and New York and they couldn't spend whatever it takes to get a player.
- madmike71

At what point did I rip the franchise? I'm saying they were bad when they were bad...what is inaccurate about that?

I don't want them to apologize for anything, just for the fans to call a spade a spade. I reacted to a post that said they had missed the playoffs 5 times in the last 25 years. I said you have a better argument if you expand that to include the 6 years of consecutive playoff misses prior to that 25 years. Take the good with the bad.

And please don't talk about market size. The Rangers have blown that theory out of the water for years now. And was Pittsburgh any bigger or smaller the years the Pens won cups vs. the years they were the worst team in the league?