We needed a third line checking role player...which Frattin filled.
- noename09

Frattin is sh1t

fine...but now were both just grasping at straws here...either way...what ANY GM would have to work with 3-4 years ago was so bad, that anyone could argue that it would be VERY hard for jsut about ANYONE to make them a strong team in less than 4-5 years.

tehre isnt one sure way to build a championship team...Burke rolled the dice on the Kessel deal and it didnt fully work out, however we have a 35+ goal scorer out of it, and hes added many prospects since. its a much slower rebuild than planned...but its atleast steps in the right direction.
- noename09

My point you're overlooking is the massive fail on Burke's part. I woudn't expect anyone to be able to turn that mess around in 4 years or less, but Burke told us he could and he even banked on that with the Kessel trade. Now we're 4 years in and we have no core of young franchise players, and there's been a hell of a lot of young franchise players picked in the first rounds over the last 4 years.

That's it, that's all: Burke failed. We need to start over just like pretending the Sundin era ends with this season, and acquire these studs you can keep for 9+ years at a low cap hit. If we can get two young studs this year and next in the draft, they'll be ready to produce in 3 years. Kessel will still be only 27, Reimer 27, Gardiner 24, Kadri/Colborne 25, Lupul 32, etc. all of a sudden there's something positive to build towards.

How's Kadri done with the Marlies this year?
- faceto27

Just fine. 2nd best on the team...

Frattin is sh1t
- HipHopisDead

He just cant finish.
He's ok...average.....like them all.

My point you're overlooking is the massive fail on Burke's part. I woudn't expect anyone to be able to turn that mess around in 4 years or less, but Burke told us he could and he even banked on that with the Kessel trade. Now we're 4 years in and we have no core of young franchise players, and there's been a hell of a lot of young franchise players picked in the first rounds over the last 4 years.

That's it, that's all: Burke failed. We need to start over just like pretending the Sundin era ends with this season, and acquire these studs you can keep for 9+ years at a low cap hit. If we can get two young studs this year and next in the draft, they'll be ready to produce in 3 years. Kessel will still be only 27, Reimer 27, Gardiner 24, Kadri/Colborne 25, Lupul 32, etc. all of a sudden there's something positive to build towards.
- 1979AD

You mean we'd still be stuck with him in 3 years time??

never said they'd make the playoffs just said better to give them NHL experience rather then being an average player in the AHL and ruin them like we did pogge
- matt1337

Pogge was a different story.

What I do want to avoid is burying vets int he minors. That is a big mistake that many teams make.

If next year we add some quality prospects to the farm from the draft and keep the same group of NHLers for the most part, then that just means we can remove the prospects ont he MArlies that don't seem like they will make it, and bring up the quality of our prospects ont he farm team. Having some skill in the minors is a good thing to have, and what makes it valueable is if it is young skill.

Then when we start clearing out room in the NHL we slowly bring up the best prospects. This creates healthy competition fro the young guys and makes them want to compete at a higher level.

If we follow this blueprint, it will be the first time the LEafs have done this in..... Well, ever as far as I'm concerned.

So youre telling me...that if you knew what you know now...you would have done what Edmonton did 4 years ago...ok.
- noename09

Plus, I just don't buy that there is only one way to do a re-build -- tank, tank and tank some more. I actually don't think that there's that big a problem with Burke's approach. He has made some big errors in judgement along the way though:

1. Not realizing that the first of the two firsts would turn into Seguin
2. Underestimating how hard it would be to pick up a centre to complement Kessel
3. Over-valuing Reimer (pretty well everyone fell for that one)
4. Over-valuing the contribution that guys like Armstrong would make in ensuring that the kids didn't go into the kind of tailspin we see now.
5. Wilson

I'll give him a bit of a pass on Connoly since he needed a centre and certainly didn't guess how well Kessel and Lupul would do with Bozak between them.

In the end he's still accountable but it does make a difference in thinking about how to move forward.

We still have a very young team whose success will depend mostly on how these kids develop. I know lots of experts who spend thier time on HB have already decided that they won't amount to much but I'd think that the jury is still out on them.

We need a goalie and a front line forward - preferably a centre this summer (the elusive Getzlaf type). Those are hard pieces to pick up and will cost. I'd be preapred to move almost anyone to acquire those pieces. Unless we luck out and get the first overall -- I think that's the only franchise player in the mix -- I'd include trading our pick if the right deal was there.

You mean we'd still be stuck with him in 3 years time??



- faceto27

I'm not giving up on him yet - he's still basically a prospect. I see his struggles this year being all mental. I would start him in the A next year and see if he can rebuild his confidence and composure.

He just cant finish.
He's ok...average.....like them all.
- Fakepartofme

The Leafs have an entire full cupboard of average prospects.

Ok so evaluate him on what he has done... absolutely nothing. The team isn't in a better position now then it was when he took over...
- RooNosHockey

then well just have to agree to disagree then....because clearly you know best.

lol i wouldnt be surprised :p i read yours for the lols like when you changed your team to buffalo and asked if you could talk poop now too. should've kept that as my location
- matt1337

Yeah, wtf man?!

Change it back.

You mean we'd still be stuck with him in 3 years time??



- faceto27

I did..........loved it.........we lived in the SW.......

Way down in Somerset
- jimdavis

Cool! Yeah I love it. So close to the mountains.

Plus, I just don't buy that there is only one way to do a re-build -- tank, tank and tank some more. I actually don't think that there's that big a problem with Burke's approach. He has made some big errors in judgement along the way though:

1. Not realizing that the first of the two firsts would turn into Seguin
2. Underestimating how hard it would be to pick up a centre to complement Kessel
3. Over-valuing Reimer (pretty well everyone fell for that one)
4. Over-valuing the contribution that guys like Armstrong would make in ensuring that the kids didn't go into the kind of tailspin we see now.
5. Wilson

I'll give him a bit of a pass on Connoly since he needed a centre and certainly didn't guess how well Kessel and Lupul would do with Bozak between them.

In the end he's still accountable but it does make a difference in thinking about how to move forward.

We still have a very young team whose success will depend mostly on how these kids develop. I know lots of experts who spend thier time on HB have already decided that they won't amount to much but I'd think that the jury is still out on them.

We need a goalie and a front line forward - preferably a centre this summer (the elusive Getzlaf type). Those are hard pieces to pick up and will cost. I'd be preapred to move almost anyone to acquire those pieces. Unless we luck out and get the first overall -- I think that's the only franchise player in the mix -- I'd include trading our pick if the right deal was there.
- Canada Cup

You make some good points mitigating Burke's epic fail.

Ok so evaluate him on what he has done... absolutely nothing. The team isn't in a better position now then it was when he took over...
- RooNosHockey

cept for the fact that the team is the second youngest in the league, has risen from 20th to about 9th on prospect depth, the AHL team is full of 20 year old prospects rather than 30 year old veterans

My point you're overlooking is the massive fail on Burke's part. I woudn't expect anyone to be able to turn that mess around in 4 years or less, but Burke told us he could and he even banked on that with the Kessel trade. Now we're 4 years in and we have no core of young franchise players, and there's been a hell of a lot of young franchise players picked in the first rounds over the last 4 years.

That's it, that's all: Burke failed. We need to start over just like pretending the Sundin era ends with this season, and acquire these studs you can keep for 9+ years at a low cap hit. If we can get two young studs this year and next in the draft, they'll be ready to produce in 3 years. Kessel will still be only 27, Reimer 27, Gardiner 24, Kadri/Colborne 25, Lupul 32, etc. all of a sudden there's something positive to build towards.
- 1979AD

I didnt overlook your point....I just disagree

Jesus, not really, but you could say some sort of deity

how ya doing east coaster, haha
- LeafMan

Lay down your false idols sir, there is no other gods than beer.

He just cant finish.
He's ok...average.....like them all.
- Fakepartofme

He has very little play making ability, can't finish, always behind the play, etc...
For 24 years old playing his first year in the NHL and doing nothing, with only one good year as a 22 year old playing in college, is not something to write home about. How can anyone think Frattin is a better prospect that Kadri is beyond me. Frattin may be a 3rd liner in 3-4 years.

cept for the fact that the team is the second youngest in the league, has risen from 20th to about 9th on prospect depth, the AHL team is full of 20 year old prospects rather than 30 year old veterans
- Dozzer

help me Dozzer....theres too many of them to take on for one guy!!!

Ok so evaluate him on what he has done... absolutely nothing. The team isn't in a better position now then it was when he took over...
- RooNosHockey

Are you kidding? Take a look at our farm before and after his arrival...sure looks like 3 years into a youth rebuild to me...and Kessel is a sniper...nothing more, nothing less...he's not our leader and never was intended to be...we brought him in to score goals, and he's doing just that...any other naive BS criticisms can be forwarded to STFU dot com

Ok so evaluate him on what he has done... absolutely nothing. The team isn't in a better position now then it was when he took over...
- RooNosHockey

Actually it is.
Not in the standings.
But in the system.

When Burke took over, the Leafs had nothing...garbage prospects, no depth and the marlies were crap.
Now our depth is better, so is our prospect pool (no real studs...but better) and the marlies are having a great season.

He's royally F'd the leafs for the present (our prospect pool and current team could be better had he traded Kaberle and a 1st - kadri for Kessel instead of veto'n it and making the stupid trade later as he did), the contracts he's taking on and UFA's he's signed...haven't worked out at all and have handcuffed the team.
Plus his stupid "I wont sign anyone longer than 5 years" philosophy hasn't helped.
He has one more year to improve this team before I would want him gone.
Unless he does something really stupid before then.

Lay down your false idols sir, there is no other gods than beer.
- Prolific_Scorer

Hai!

Cool! Yeah I love it. So close to the mountains.
- whipper334

Dont let em push you around old buddy, i gots yo back.

cept for the fact that the team is the second youngest in the league, has risen from 20th to about 9th on prospect depth, the AHL team is full of 20 year old prospects rather than 30 year old veterans
- Dozzer

Do people just choose to overlook this or is it something that people just blindly ignore? I just don't get it.

Hai!
- whipper334

Hai there yourself!!!!