google it lol
- Don'tForgetTocchet

ok.

How so? Grossmann, Coburn and Meszaros don't move the puck anywhere near as well as Carle does. Laviolette's system heavily relies on puck movement from the defense to the forwards.

Defensive defensemen are usually cheaper and easier to acquire than puck movers who do a good job picking up PP points like Carle does. Look at what was traded for Carle: A former first round draft choice and a guy who had been an OK top six defenseman. Grossmann was acquired for 2nd and 3rd rounders.

Look at the the cap hits: Carle's hit is more than double Grossmann's.
- Jsaquella

Exactly. Puck moving two way defenseman are simply more valuable in this League then stay at home defensive defenseman. They both are important to a team. But the former type of player is always going to earn more from the League then the latter. And that's for a reason. It's a passing, skating, shooting game. You definitely need role players such as Grossmann. Especially when you have a need for that type of player. I love Grossmann as a player. I want him to return to the Flyers, next year. But if I have to choose between the two, it's a no brainer.

i don't spend any time thinking about these scenarios. so many factors come into play between now and then. i just wait and see what happens.
- hammarby31

I think about it, because I try to figure what will happen this summer. I don't obsess on it. Like I do Lana Del Ray

I agree.

I think a tougher choice would be Scarlett Johansson and Alba.

I would sill take Alba, and I would have to take Stamkos over Giroux. 7 million per year or not.

174 goals and only 22 is crazy.
- DrMidnite

still albs for me

Damn, Tampa Bay signed JT Brown, a NCAA FA the Flyers were highly interested in. Helluva a player, would have been a nice addition. He'll probably be playing for the Bolts by the weekend
- Jsaquella

Burns a year off that 2 year entry level deal too if he does

Exactly. Puck moving two way defenseman are simply more valuable in this League then stay at home defensive defenseman. They both are important to a team. But the former type of player is always going to earn more from the League then the latter. And that's for a reason. It's a passing, skating, shooting game. You definitely need role players such as Grossmann. Especially when you have a need for that type of player. I love Grossmann as a player. I want him to return to the Flyers, next year. But if I have to choose between the two, it's a no brainer.
- MJL

Why is it a no brainer? What makes it easier to replace Grossmann than Carle? Grossmann is very underrated and matches up much better against other teams bigger forwards. Im not saying Carle doesnt play well defensively but Grossmann is much better in his own end imo. Carle is much better in the offensive zone. I think Grossmann has been as valuable as any defenseman since being acquired.

How so? Grossmann, Coburn and Meszaros don't move the puck anywhere near as well as Carle does. Laviolette's system heavily relies on puck movement from the defense to the forwards.

Defensive defensemen are usually cheaper and easier to acquire than puck movers who do a good job picking up PP points like Carle does. Look at what was traded for Carle: A former first round draft choice and a guy who had been an OK top six defenseman. Grossmann was acquired for 2nd and 3rd rounders.

Look at the the cap hits: Carle's hit is more than double Grossmann's.
- Jsaquella

So why would Homer not sign Carle for 5-5.5M extension rather than signing Coburn to his 4.5M? Why not move on from Coburn and keep Carle?

IMO, Carle's trade has nothing to do with Grossmann's trade. Two different players at different times.

So why would Homer not sign Carle for 5-5.5M extension rather than signing Coburn to his 4.5M? Why not move on from Coburn and keep Carle?

IMO Carle's trade has nothing to do with Grossmann's trade. Two different players.
- stveshdy

Holmgren is trying to sign Carle. It's not a matter of one or the other yet. He wants to keep both, but Carle may well be pricing himself out of the Flyers ability to pay. Perhaps Carle wants to see what guys like Suter and Wideman get and base his demands on their contracts.

It's really possible that Carle and/or his agent feel he can get $6mm or more in the open market.

The simple fact is, a guy like Grossmann is more common than a guy with Carle's ability to move the puck. Guys who are even half decent at moving the puck end up getting sizeable deals. Look at guys like Grant Clitsome and Randy Jones.

It's not a knock against Grossmann, it's a simple fact of life in the NHL.

Why is it a no brainer? What makes it easier to replace Grossmann than Carle? Grossmann is very underrated and matches up much better against other teams bigger forwards. Im not saying Carle doesnt play well defensively but Grossmann is much better in his own end imo. Carle is much better in the offensive zone. I think Grossmann has been as valuable as any defenseman since being acquired.
- stveshdy

That type of player is more readily available for cheaper assets, and cheaper salary. I don't think Grossmann is overrated. I think he's rated exactly what he is.

So why would Homer not sign Carle for 5-5.5M extension rather than signing Coburn to his 4.5M? Why not move on from Coburn and keep Carle?

IMO, Carle's trade has nothing to do with Grossmann's trade. Two different players at different times.
- stveshdy

How do you know what Holmgren has been trying to do? Or what he has offered Carle. The player has to agree. A GM can't force a player to sign, and fore go Free Agency.

Holmgren is trying to sign Carle. It's not a matter of one or the other yet. He wants to keep both, but Carle may well be pricing himself out of the Flyers ability to pay. Perhaps Carle wants to see what guys like Suter and Wideman get and base his demands on their contracts.

It's really possible that Carle and/or his agent feel he can get $6mm or more in the open market.

The simple fact is, a guy like Grossmann is more common than a guy with Carle's ability to move the puck. Guys who are even half decent at moving the puck end up getting sizeable deals. Look at guys like Grant Clitsome and Randy Jones.

It's not a knock against Grossmann, it's a simple fact of life in the NHL.
- Jsaquella

Well I wouldnt overpay for Carle at 6M. Thats ridiculous if you ask me and I dont care how well he moves the puck because their is more to the game then just that. Once again not saying he doesnt do a nice job but I'm not overpaying for him.

How do you know what Holmgren has been trying to do? Or what he has offered Carle. The player has to agree. A GM can't force a player to sign, and fore go Free Agency.
- MJL

The point is he knows what its going to cost to keep Carle. He could of waited on Coburn and worked out a deal with Carle. If you truely want a player why not lock him up? He signed Coburn IMO bc he knows Carle is going to be too high priced to keep around.

Well I wouldnt overpay for Carle at 6M. Thats ridiculous if you ask me and I dont care how well he moves the puck because their is more to the game then just that. Once again not saying he doesnt do a nice job but I'm not overpaying for him.
- stveshdy

There is more to the game then that. And Carle brings much more to the game then just that. So how is that a factor? In terms of an overall player, Carle is a much better overall player then Grossmann. That's why he will command a higher salary then Grossmann can. And why the League values a player like Carle more then a player like Grossmann.

That type of player is more readily available for cheaper assets, and cheaper salary. I don't think Grossmann is overrated. I think he's rated exactly what he is.
- MJL

When building a team you have to have balance. Everyone on the team cant make over $5M per year. Thats the way it goes with the salary cap. The Flyers have other players to worry about besides Carle. However, if Carle is important as you say, I think he should be top priority (not signing Coburn). I understand the money and agents having to agree but you do what you have to inorder to keep your guy (Carle) around.

The point is he knows what its going to cost to keep Carle. He could of waited on Coburn and worked out a deal with Carle. If you truely want a player why not lock him up? He signed Coburn IMO bc he knows Carle is going to be too high priced to keep around.
- stveshdy

Not true. He knows what he wants to offer Carle. And Carle knows what he wants to do and what he's looking for. How do you know he could've have waited on Coburn and worked out a deal for Carle? Carle may want to test Free Agency as was said earlier. He signed Coburn because he wanted to resign him and was able to come to an agreement that both parties were happy with. It takes two to tango. In order to lock up a player, the player has to be willing to be locked up to a new deal. Again, a GM can't force a player to sign.

Well I wouldnt overpay for Carle at 6M. Thats ridiculous if you ask me and I dont care how well he moves the puck because their is more to the game then just that. Once again not saying he doesnt do a nice job but I'm not overpaying for him.
- stveshdy

That's fine and dandy. But you're not a NHL GM. I wouldn't have paid James Wisniewski $5.5mm. Or Andrei Markov $5.75mm. Or Jay Bouwmeester $6.68mm...but I'm not a NHL GM either.

There is more to Carle's game than just moving the puck, too. He's a pretty good shot blocker and capable defensive player. He's a good passer and generally has good hockey sense.

The bottom line is that the Flyers NEED somebody with Carle's skill set or close to it with the system and style their coach uses. Guys of Carle's caliber are priced around $5mm or so per season.

There is more to the game then that. And Carle brings much more to the game then just that. So how is that a factor? In terms of an overall player, Carle is a much better overall player then Grossmann. That's why he will command a higher salary then Grossmann can. And why the League values a player like Carle more then a player like Grossmann.
- MJL

I'm not debating that Carle isnt worth more than Grossmann on the open market. What I am saying is Grossmann brings something this team lacks and thats size and physicality on the backend who can match up well with other teams best players/forwards. The Flyers IMO have too many of the same style defenseman before acquiring Kubina and Grossmann (w/ Prongs out).

When building a team you have to have balance. Everyone on the team cant make over $5M per year. Thats the way it goes with the salary cap. The Flyers have other players to worry about besides Carle. However, if Carle is important as you say, I think he should be top priority (not signing Coburn). I understand the money and agents having to agree but you do what you have to inorder to keep your guy (Carle) around.
- stveshdy

Either Carle is top priority, or a comparable replacement is. I don't know Holmgren's plan or Carle's. I can only speculate. But you keep implying that it's a one way street and Holmgren has full control over Carle. He doesn't.

Your assuming that because Coburn signed, and Carle didn't, that Coburn was a priority over Carle. You don't know that to be the case.

The point is he knows what its going to cost to keep Carle. He could of waited on Coburn and worked out a deal with Carle. If you truely want a player why not lock him up? He signed Coburn IMO bc he knows Carle is going to be too high priced to keep around.
- stveshdy

It may be that he had Coburn agree to the price he was willing to pay and figured that it'd be better to get it done when he had the opportunity, rather than let Coburn reach FA.

How do we know that Carle's agent gave Holmgren any numbers? We don't. All we know is that talks haven't progressed much.

Not true. He knows what he wants to offer Carle. And Carle knows what he wants to do and what he's looking for. How do you know he could've have waited on Coburn and worked out a deal for Carle? Carle may want to test Free Agency as was said earlier. He signed Coburn because he wanted to resign him and was able to come to an agreement that both parties were happy with. It takes two to tango. In order to lock up a player, the player has to be willing to be locked up to a new deal. Again, a GM can't force a player to sign.
- MJL

How do you know he couldnt of ? Goes both ways.

the post TDL undrafted signees are not playoff eligible, correct?
- hammarby31

Meh, im not too worried ...our team is full of youth..plus we signed nick cousins. I dont know much about him, but apparently the brass are very high on him.

I'm not debating that Carle isnt worth more than Grossmann on the open market. What I am saying is Grossmann brings something this team lacks and thats size and physicality on the backend who can match up well with other teams best players/forwards. The Flyers IMO have too many of the same style defenseman before acquiring Kubina and Grossmann (w/ Prongs out).
- stveshdy

And if the Flyers lose Carle they will be lacking other things. And that's a player that is much harder to replace then a Grossmann type.

How do you know he couldnt of ? Goes both ways.
- stveshdy

I don't know. But what I do know is that Carle has final say on where to sign. All we know is that the Flyers and Coburn were able to come to an agreement, and to this point the Flyers and Carle haven't. That's all we know. Nothing more.

I'm not debating that Carle isnt worth more than Grossmann on the open market. What I am saying is Grossmann brings something this team lacks and thats size and physicality on the backend who can match up well with other teams best players/forwards. The Flyers IMO have too many of the same style defenseman before acquiring Kubina and Grossmann (w/ Prongs out).
- stveshdy

Exactly what style defenseman did they have too many of? The two guys who are puck movers are Timonen and Carle. Neither Coburn or Meszaros are as capable in that regard as Timonen or Carle. In fact, Coburn and Meszaros are more like Kubina and Grossmann than they are like Carle.

Granted, neither Meszaros or Coburn are as consistently physical as Grossmann has been, but they're not similar to Carle.

Either Carle is top priority, or a comparable replacement is. I don't know Holmgren's plan or Carle's. I can only speculate. But you keep implying that it's a one way street and Holmgren has full control over Carle. He doesn't.

Your assuming that because Coburn signed, and Carle didn't, that Coburn was a priority over Carle. You don't know that to be the case.
- MJL

Were all assuming. We have no idea what was going on behind close doors.