Wins play a big role in the Cy young award, so why not for hockey? Tradition I supose. Hard to change tradition through a keyboard. We understand. We don't like it but we understand.
- powerhouse

not always. 2 years ago, hernandez won with 13 wins, and the year before grienke won it with 16 wins. both times, neither pitcher was even close to leading the league in wins, for the simple fact that they were GREAT pitchers who played on AWFUL teams.

baseball is also a terrible example to use, for the simple fact that the guy with the most wins almost always has the best (or at least top 3) numbers for ERA and strikeouts (among starters obviously). it's rare in baseball that you're gonna see a starter with an ERA near 2.00, and 200 k's, who doesn't have nearly 20 wins.

But you ignore the fact that the Rangers have on of the best defensive teams in the league. They are leading the league in blocked shots. Do you think that maybe, just maybe that helps Lunqvists statistics?

You point out that Fleury doesn't have to be good, but fail to ignore that he has been that good. That he has won a lot of the Penguins games by himself. The offense wasn't always scoring 5 goals/game.
- Ben37

I actually suspect that shot blocking has very little effect on goalie statistics, or is even a particularly good indicator of defensive quality. The Rangers are fourth in shot blocking, Nashville is 11th, St. Louis is 17th, Phoenix is 20th and Los Angeles is 29th. That's a pretty wide spread for a handful of teams usually though of as suffocating, defense-first teams.

In fact, shot blocking may actually have a slightly negative effect on save percentage (since the shots that do get blocked probably tend to be easier than average to stop).

Wins are a team stat, and using wins and losses to evaluate goalie play is lazy analysis. Some places are a lot harder to win in than others.

Consider a stat called "Win Threshold," which is the theoretical save percentage you would need to get from your goaltending just to be an average team (i.e., allow exactly as many goals as you score).

For L.A., the calculation is (2094 shots against - 169 goals for) / 2094 = .919. That means L.A.'s total goaltending needs to be at .919 (which is about .007 above league average) just to be on the bubble.

For Pittsburgh, the calculation is (2052 - 244) / 2052 = .881, which means that even Steve Mason would probably have a winning record in Pittsburgh.

Of course Fleury has a boatload of wins. He has a much easier job than Quick does.

That doesn't make him necessarily better or worse (you can still be a great goaltender on a great team), but it does mean that comparing them on wins alone is horrendously unfair to Quick.
- Sven22

That has to be one of the dumbest stats I have ever read. Teams change the way they play depending on the situation in the game. A team up 2-0 plays much different than a team down 2-0. So to throw goalies stats from one team into a BS equation for another team is ludicrous. Fleury allows the Pens to play the type of game they want, so to have some stat say we would be just as good with Steve Mason is moronic.

I actually suspect that shot blocking has very little effect on goalie statistics, or is even a particularly good indicator of defensive quality. The Rangers are fourth in shot blocking, Nashville is 11th, St. Louis is 17th, Phoenix is 20th and Los Angeles is 29th. That's a pretty wide spread for a handful of teams usually though of as suffocating, defense-first teams.

In fact, shot blocking may actually have a slightly negative effect on save percentage (since the shots that do get blocked probably tend to be easier than average to stop).
- Sven22

excellent point. some of the worst defensive teams (toronto, tampa, NYI, carolina, etc) are all in the top 10 for blocked shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpFf7vvHh8g

One of the best series of saves this year.

That has to be one of the dumbest stats I have ever read. Teams change the way they play depending on the situation in the game. A team up 2-0 plays much different than a team down 2-0. So to throw goalies stats from one team into a BS equation for another team is ludicrous. Fleury allows the Pens to play the type of game they want, so to have some stat say we would be just as good with Steve Mason is moronic.
- PensFan1103

The stat does not say that the Penguins would be "just as good" with Steve Mason. Of course the Penguins would be a lot worse with Steve Mason.

The stat suggests that the Penguins would probably still be a playoff team with a lousy starting goalie, which I think is true. With Fleury (who in my opinion is an above average starting goalie, probably top 8-10 in the league), the Penguins have probably the best overall team in the NHL. With a much-less competent starter (like Mason), they probably squeak into the playoffs and get hammered in the first round.

But the point is that Pittsburgh doesn't need great goaltending to win consistently. Average is more than good enough, and Fleury is above average. Compare to Los Angeles, where Quick has to be nearly perfect every night just to get his team to O.T.

Side note -- you are correct to point out that score effects do matter. Most teams give up higher-quality chances when they're in the lead, so Fleury's raw save percentage is probably slightly underrated. Not enough that he would be in Lundqvist or Quick's league, though.

The stat does not say that the Penguins would be "just as good" with Steve Mason. Of course the Penguins would be a lot worse with Steve Mason.

The stat suggests that the Penguins would probably still be a playoff team with a lousy starting goalie, which I think is true. With Fleury (who in my opinion is an above average starting goalie, probably top 8-10 in the league), the Penguins have probably the best overall team in the NHL. With a much-less competent starter (like Mason), they probably squeak into the playoffs and get hammered in the first round.

But the point is that Pittsburgh doesn't need great goaltending to win consistently. Average is more than good enough, and Fleury is above average. Compare to Los Angeles, where Quick has to be nearly perfect every night just to get his team to O.T.

Side note -- you are correct to point out that score effects do matter. Most teams give up higher-quality chances when they're in the lead, so Fleury's raw save percentage is probably slightly underrated. Not enough that he would be in Lundqvist or Quick's league, though.
- Sven22

Would you put Howard above Fleury??? Just wondering???

Would you put Howard above Fleury??? Just wondering???
- cap1681

No.

I blieve in DC there is more than a little regret they let Varlamov walk. This has been MAF's most consistent year so we are very happy for him. He is a freak interms of speed and agility. He is also not a big guy at all. Really acrobatic and tons of fun to watch. Whether he wins anything is not that important to me.

It would be nice to get some recognition for his achievements but I don't think he gets as much praise as he deserves. We watch him nightly and see some of the freaky good stuff he does. No disrespect to any other team or goalie. There are others who are very, very good. I also believe the best is yet to come my friends.
- powerhouse

We regret what Varlamov could have been (he was clearly the most talented of the goalies in the system, with the potential to be a top goalie in this league), but he wasn't going to be resigned here (rumor was he was KHL bound, Caps weren't going to commit large $'s due to injury issues) so I think most everyone was thrilled with the return the Caps received from Colorado (at the time, we thought it would be a much better pick than it appears it will turn out to be).

King Henrik Wins
The Flower is second
Jonny to quick third
Halak is next

dude, like i said, i'm not saying fleury isn't a great goalie. the guy is NO DOUBT a big game goalie, and going in to the playoffs, there are very few goalies playing right now that i'd take over him. i'm simply talking about the vezina trophy for THIS SEASON. unfortunately, that big save he makes to keep them in it is far less important (when considering the award) then the 3 goals he already gave up.

again, fleury is great, i'd take him on my team 6 days a week and twice on sunday, but his numbers don't justify him winning the vezina over lundqvist or quick this year. I'd put fleury in a pack with Rinne, the St Louis Duo, and Jimmy Howard....all are GREAT goalies, who just aren't quite as good as the other 2, this year.
- sensarmy_11

And that's what irks Penguins fans the most.... Fleury will never win a Vezina based on the way the award is handed out.

But arguing the team in front of him is a detriment to his greatness is ridiculous unless you are willing to admit that Marty Brodeur's stats are also way inflated by the neutral zone trap of the 90's.... He's a great goalie but the team and style of play attributed as much to his success as his talent.

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- ryman1566

This doesnt sound good. Nisk is obviously one of the reasons, is the other Letang or Lovejoy?

There is no doubt about it, when it comes to stopping a 1 on 0 or a 2 on 0 MAF is the best in the league period. He is without a doubt the most athletic, and quickest goalie in the league. The system the Pens play does little to protect the goalie or insulate him. Thats why I believe if the Pens didn't have MAF in net, they wouldn't be able to play so offensively aggressive. The only thing he doesn't have going for him is the NY Media Machine, if he was given more national coverage I would have to think MAF would be a finalist at least.

This doesnt sound good. Nisk is obviously one of the reasons, is the other Letang or Lovejoy?
- Rawdog9755

Not wishing ill, but hopefully lovejoy

This doesnt sound good. Nisk is obviously one of the reasons, is the other Letang or Lovejoy?
- Rawdog9755

Probably Lovejoy.... you want to have 7 d men especially when you play @NY and home back to backs Thursday and Friday.... I think Letang is ok... took some ugly shots last night but doubt he's the issue.

Yes it will be. Rangers fans always hate it when I casually mention he's never been able to get past the second round. In my mind, fair or not, a truly great goalie SHOULD be able to steal you a series against a superior team now and then. Its not just the team in front of him either. Henrik's career save % is over a full point lower in the playoffs than the regular season (90.9% playoffs vs 92% regular season.)
- Emperor Filonius

Case in point: Pens against Roloson last year (+ an ANEMIC pp), Halak 2 years ago..

The stat does not say that the Penguins would be "just as good" with Steve Mason. Of course the Penguins would be a lot worse with Steve Mason.

The stat suggests that the Penguins would probably still be a playoff team with a lousy starting goalie, which I think is true. With Fleury (who in my opinion is an above average starting goalie, probably top 8-10 in the league), the Penguins have probably the best overall team in the NHL. With a much-less competent starter (like Mason), they probably squeak into the playoffs and get hammered in the first round.

But the point is that Pittsburgh doesn't need great goaltending to win consistently. Average is more than good enough, and Fleury is above average. Compare to Los Angeles, where Quick has to be nearly perfect every night just to get his team to O.T.

Side note -- you are correct to point out that score effects do matter. Most teams give up higher-quality chances when they're in the lead, so Fleury's raw save percentage is probably slightly underrated. Not enough that he would be in Lundqvist or Quick's league, though.
- Sven22

What a silly statement. They 'probably' make the playoffs without Fleury, but with him they are a threat to win the President's Trophy.

Rangers 'probably' make the playoffs without Lundqvist too.


I'm curious though, who are the 7-9 goalies you view as better than Fleury?

This doesnt sound good. Nisk is obviously one of the reasons, is the other Letang or Lovejoy?
- Rawdog9755

Probably Letang. He looked bad after that head-to-head collision yesterday.

Take a look

https://lh6.googleusercon...s946/crosbysidebyside.gif

And that's what irks Penguins fans the most.... Fleury will never win a Vezina based on the way the award is handed out.

But arguing the team in front of him is a detriment to his greatness is ridiculous unless you are willing to admit that Marty Brodeur's stats are also way inflated by the neutral zone trap of the 90's.... He's a great goalie but the team and style of play attributed as much to his success as his talent.
- Yonk1216

i always argued that. i dont' think it takes away from him being an incredible goalie (similar to MAF), but I think he was greatly helped not only by the system, but the plethora of GREAT d-men that played in front of him.

give me patrick roy 101 times out of 100 as the greatest goalie of all time

And just to add my actual thoughts on the award, in my estimation Lundqvist and Quick are head and shoulders above the competition in terms of this year's play.

The rest of the pack is much closer together, and depending on your perspective (subjectively measuring team factors, weighing peak performance versus games played, etc.) I think you could make a pretty good argument for any number of guys (Smith, Rinne, Fleury, Elliot, Howard, even Kiprusoff) being the No. 3.
- Sven22

Marc-Andre Fleury has one regulation loss since Feb. 15 and two regulation losses since Jan. 11. During that stretch, he is 22-2-2 and has allowed two goals or fewer 17 times.


Head and shoulders above that? I dont think you understand what that saying means sir lol

Marc-Andre Fleury has one regulation loss since Feb. 15 and two regulation losses since Jan. 11. During that stretch, he is 22-2-2 and has allowed two goals or fewer 17 times.


Head and shoulders above that? I dont think you understand what that saying means sir lol
- StabMastaArson

I guess it's a good thing for lundqvist and quick that the season actually starts in october, and the stats before Jan 11 also count. if you look at the WHOLE SEASON, and not just samples that help your argument, then lundqvist is the winner, quick is behind him, and then fleury, rinne, howard come in behind them.

i always argued that. i dont' think it takes away from him being an incredible goalie (similar to MAF), but I think he was greatly helped not only by the system, but the plethora of GREAT d-men that played in front of him.

give me patrick roy 101 times out of 100 as the greatest goalie of all time
- sensarmy_11

The real answer to that is what has he done since stevens retired? nothing much, bunch of first round losses, some of witch he was responsible for and a couple of fast 2nd round beatdowns. To compare him to Roy is silly. hell I could have made a few saves with stevens, neids and kenny D in front of me. Talk about an intimidating Defence to come down against lol

Anyone who knows hockey knows Roy is the best money goalie ever by a long shot.

I can't wait for the argument 15 years from now..."Fleury, yeah, sure he won a lot of games and was great, but he played behind that great team with Malkin and Crosby, but he never won a Vezina, so how can he be a hall of famer?????"