True but in the playoffs he didn't shut down a whole lot of teams. Howe was more of a post season anchor for Philly than Bourque was for Boston.
- JoeRussomanno

Bourque is a top 5 defenseman ever to play the game. Who is in your top 5?

5 - Eddie Shore
4 - Ray Bourque
3 - Doug Harvey
2 - Nicklas Lidstrom
1 - Bobby Orr

Only thing I'm comparing Howe to Bourque is that I felt Howe was better defensively. Bourque was better offensively. Personally I don't value offense from my defensemen all that much, sorry that's just my opinion, I'd rather the dmen be capable of shutting the other team down. It's like a Defensive end in football that gets close to 20 sacks a season but his team gives up 30 points a game.
You have forwards whose job it is to net the puck. If there's a breakdown and a dman can jump up into the play to finish then great, otherwise I prefer his attention on defense.

I can further go onto to say that Howe's style anchored his team to two conference finals appearances. One appearance they took the greatest team of all time to 7 games. Bourque on the other hand only made it to the finals once with Boston. If memory serves me well they got swept by the Gretzky-less Oilers, or was he still on that team?
- JoeRussomanno

In my opinion Borque was very strong defensively in his own end.

My bad I keep thinking the 88 year was represented by Montreal,
- JoeRussomanno

Unfortunately no or would have been 3 in 4 Finals for Habs in late 80's..

Is first in all-time points scored by a defenceman with 1,579.
Is first in all-time defence goals scored with 410.
Is third in all-time cumulative plus-minus with 528, behind Larry Robinson and Orr.
Won the Norris Trophy in 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, and 1994.
- BingoLady

Forgot to add that didn't win a cup until piggybacked by Colorado.

Bourque is a top 5 defenseman ever to play the game. Who is in your top 5?

5 - Eddie Shore
4 - Ray Bourque
3 - Doug Harvey
2 - Nicklas Lidstrom
1 - Bobby Orr
- stveshdy

good list

Can't argue too much with that. Robinson, Potvin 6-7?

Forgot to add that didn't win a cup until piggybacked by Colorado.
- JoeRussomanno

true

Bourque is a top 5 defenseman ever to play the game. Who is in your top 5?

5 - Eddie Shore
4 - Ray Bourque
3 - Doug Harvey
2 - Nicklas Lidstrom
1 - Bobby Orr
- stveshdy

That's not my point. My point was a better shutdown defenseman in the postseason. His other attributes are close enough in comparison although inferior to Bourque's that I would take him over Bourque based on his ability play better defensively in the playoffs.

+/- Can be a good tool if you actually see the game that it correlates to. As a general statistic, it can be very skewed. Players get both pluses, and minuses for goals they had very little to do with if anything at all.

Basically, I think when a player has a very good + number it indicates he is playing well, while a player with a bad - number doesn't necessarily mean he is playing poorly.
- PLindbergh31

Agreed that +/- can be a very good statistic. With context, it can tell a lot about a player, a team, and a game/stretch/season. That said, without context it becomes a weak statistic. In that way, I guess it's like any other number that's tracked in hockey.

EDIT: A solid example would be a good defensive player on a struggling team. You might look at his +/- might be really low. Without the context, it doesn't make much sense, but with you'd look and probably think, "Well, now I know who was put on the ice for every defensive zone draw."

Bourque is a top 5 defenseman ever to play the game. Who is in your top 5?

5 - Eddie Shore
4 - Ray Bourque
3 - Doug Harvey
2 - Nicklas Lidstrom
1 - Bobby Orr
- stveshdy

1. Orr
2. Lidstrom
3. Bourque
4. Robinson
5. Potvin

Have only read about Shore, and Harvey haven't seen very many highlights and or documentaries on those players. Surely they were great players, I just leave them off my list due to not knowing a ton about them.

Unfortunately no or would have been 3 in 4 Finals for Habs in late 80's..
- BingoLady

I remember them and Edmonton always up there ugh! I used to hate Roy and Chelios so bad But didn't mind edmonton that much go figure.

Agreed that +/- can be a very good statistic. With context, it can tell a lot about a player, a team, and a game/stretch/season. That said, without context it becomes a weak statistic. In that way, I guess it's like any other number that's tracked in hockey.
- BulliesPhan87

Yes and I used it in a specific context. I'm sorry but Howe and Bourque both played on good teams, yet one is head and shoulders better than the other in postseason plus minus.

Agreed that +/- can be a very good statistic. With context, it can tell a lot about a player, a team, and a game/stretch/season. That said, without context it becomes a weak statistic. In that way, I guess it's like any other number that's tracked in hockey.
- BulliesPhan87

Yup. If you watch a team and a player closely +/- can tell a story, just viewing it as a number on a piece of paper, or a website, it doesn't tell you much at all.

I remember them and Edmonton always up there ugh! I used to hate Roy and Chelios so bad But didn't mind edmonton that much go figure.
- JoeRussomanno

We had some good battles for sure - Hospodar

Quick Poll... Who would you guys rather face in round 1, and who do you think is most likely?

Pittsburgh
Boston
Panthers/Caps/Tampa

Fuhr


and yes he was good cause he was left out to dry a lot..
- BingoLady

Edmonton also had Andy Moog and I thought both goalies were really good for that reason. They were routinely left out to dry. Fortunately, I have a lot of old DVD and VHS of NHl games from 80s and 90s. Oilers barely played D

Quick Poll... Who would you guys rather face in round 1, and who do you think is most likely?

Pittsburgh
Boston
Panthers/Caps/Tampa
- RooNosHockey

The easy answer is Florida but I don't mind getting NJ or Pittsburgh.

Yes and I used it in a specific context. I'm sorry but Howe and Bourque both played on good teams, yet one is head and shoulders better than the other in postseason plus minus.
- JoeRussomanno

Sorry sir, I wasn't commenting on your discussion. Fact is, I'm too young to really have a meaningful opinion on this one.

good list

Can't argue too much with that. Robinson, Potvin 6-7?
- BingoLady

Yup.

I have Potvin then Robinson at 6 and 7

What are the injuries for the dmen??

Quick Poll... Who would you guys rather face in round 1, and who do you think is most likely?

Pittsburgh
Boston
Panthers/Caps/Tampa
- RooNosHockey

I think we'd all prefer to draw the third seed, but I'm starting to feel a first round Keystone State showdown is inevitable.

Sorry sir, I wasn't commenting on your discussion. Fact is, I'm too young to really have a meaningful opinion on this one.
- BulliesPhan87

yea you need a phd in hockey just to post here sorry

Quick Poll... Who would you guys rather face in round 1, and who do you think is most likely?

Pittsburgh
Boston
Panthers/Caps/Tampa
- RooNosHockey

Order of who I want.

Panthers
Caps
Pitsburgh without Crosby
Tampa
Boston
Pitsburgh with Crosby

Order I think.

Pitsburgh 50%
Panthers 20%
Boston 15%
Caps 10%
Tampa 5%

Edmonton also had Andy Moog and I thought both goalies were really good for that reason. They were routinely left out to dry. Fortunately, I have a lot of old DVD and VHS of NHl games from 80s and 90s. Oilers barely played D
- sulshawn

It was fun watching Coffey skate back as fast as he could and Huddy trying to hold down the fort.

That's not my point. My point was a better shutdown defenseman in the postseason. His other attributes are close enough in comparison although inferior to Bourque's that I would take him over Bourque based on his ability play better defensively in the playoffs.
- JoeRussomanno

I guess thats your opinion (not trying to change it). If I have to pick one to be on my team (regular season and playoffs) im taking Bourque every time.

Quick Poll... Who would you guys rather face in round 1, and who do you think is most likely?

Pittsburgh
Boston
Panthers/Caps/Tampa
- RooNosHockey

Depending on the significance of the injuries to Timonen, and Meszaros, I think the # 6 seed is most likely. # 7 is a possibility too. I think # 4 is the least likely.

So I would say 5-7 is the most feasible. The # 6 seed playing the Southeast Division Winner seems like the best potential matchup.