I could say the same for assists too. Off of any goal you can have 2-3 guys get an assist. Did it have a whole lot to do with them or the fact they eventually fed a sniper the puck on a given routine play.
- JoeRussomanno

You can easily find out who has the most/least primary assists. +/- and assists are like batting avg. and RBIs in baseball.

Am i the only one that hopes the Islanders get a new stadium and become revelant again. I feel bad for that fan base.
- RooNosHockey

i dont i scored four tickets right behind the net for 45$ a piece for next thursdays game.

It is a weak statistic to follow.

For example.

Last season:
Nicklas Lidstrom was a -2 for the Redwings.

Rostislav Klesla was a +9 on the Blue Jackets.

By that theory, Klesla is farrr superior to Lidstrom.. Fat chance.
- jak521

The problem there is that's not what +/- is telling you. It's not telling you who is the better player, nor was it designed to tell you that.

You can easily find out who has the most/least primary assists. +/- and assists are like batting avg. and RBIs in baseball.
- bradleyc4

Ehh.. more like At bats and RBI's.

It is a weak statistic to follow.

For example.

Last season:
Nicklas Lidstrom was a -2 for the Redwings.

Rostislav Klesla was a +9 on the Blue Jackets.

By that theory, Klesla is farrr superior to Lidstrom.. Fat chance.
- jak521

Of course it doesn't mean Lidstrom is inferior. However If you compare their body of work through careers i'm sure those numbers will favor Lidstrom. One season is a small sampling.

I could say the same for assists too. Off of any goal you can have 2-3 guys get an assist. Did it have a whole lot to do with them or the fact they eventually fed a sniper the puck on a given routine play.

Edit: Furthermore Howe was never a negative player in the playoffs, Bourque was several times.
- JoeRussomanno

Mike Green is the perfect example. Great +/- a couple seasons back and is questionable in his own end.

The problem there is that's not what +/- is telling you. It's not telling you who is the better player, nor was it designed to tell you that.
- MJL

No poop.... but thats how people take it.

oh look.. player A was a +25 and player B was a -3. Player A is much better.

It can be. I try not to use +/- because it's more indicative of how good a team is defensively than a specific player.

Steve Kasper was a great defensive forward. But his career +/- is -56.
- Jsaquella

yeah, the details really matter when taking +/- into account. but as bill put it with howe, to be such a plus player on such average-to-below-average teams in the early-90s is definitely an accomplishment.

and to your Kasper reference, he prob started a bunch of shifts in his own zone against really good competition playing alongside other defense-first type of players. that's a recipe for minuses.

Of course it doesn't mean Lidstrom is inferior. However If you compare their body of work through careers i'm sure those numbers will favor Lidstrom. One season is a small sampling.
- JoeRussomanno

Even if you stretch it out. I would bet you that if you took a guy like Mark Striet (-23 this year) and put him on a team like the Rangers or Boston.. he would probably be a +23... The team you play for plays a huge role in that number as well as the situations you are put in.

It can be. I try not to use +/- because it's more indicative of how good a team is defensively than a specific player.

Steve Kasper was a great defensive forward. But his career +/- is -56.
- Jsaquella

Exactly, it's only real use is when comparing players on the same team. And even then, it's a rudimentary way of analyzing players.

yeah, the details really matter when taking +/- into account. but as bill put it with howe, to be such a plus player on such average-to-below-average teams in the early-90s is definitely an accomplishment.

and to your Kasper reference, he prob started a bunch of shifts in his own zone against really good competition playing alongside other defense-first type of players. that's a recipe for minuses.
- OrangeBlack27

Absolutely. Kasper ALWAYS drew the Gretzkys, Yzermans and Lemieuxs in his prime. Gretzky hated to play against him, in fact lobbied for the Kings to trade for him because he didn;t want to play against him.

Exactly, it's only real use is when comparing players on the same team. And even then, it's a rudimentary way of analyzing players.
- bradleyc4

It just doesnt give a good account of whats actually happening on the ice.

The problem there is that's not what +/- is telling you. It's not telling you who is the better player, nor was it designed to tell you that.
- MJL

Only thing I'm comparing Howe to Bourque is that I felt Howe was better defensively. Bourque was better offensively. Personally I don't value offense from my defensemen all that much, sorry that's just my opinion, I'd rather the dmen be capable of shutting the other team down. It's like a Defensive end in football that gets close to 20 sacks a season but his team gives up 30 points a game.
You have forwards whose job it is to net the puck. If there's a breakdown and a dman can jump up into the play to finish then great, otherwise I prefer his attention on defense.

I can further go onto to say that Howe's style anchored his team to two conference finals appearances. One appearance they took the greatest team of all time to 7 games. Bourque on the other hand only made it to the finals once with Boston. If memory serves me well they got swept by the Gretzky-less Oilers, or was he still on that team?

i dont i scored four tickets right behind the net for 45$ a piece for next thursdays game.
- Philly1980

i'll be there, a few rows behind the flyers bench, also for $45 or so per ticket...

face value on the tix is $140

Only thing I'm comparing Howe to Bourque is that I felt Howe was better defensively. Bourque was better offensively. Personally I don't value offense from my defensemen all that much, sorry that's just my opinion, I'd rather the dmen be capable of shutting the other team down. It's like a Defensive end in football that gets close to 20 sacks a season but his team gives up 30 points a game.
You have forwards whose job it is to net the puck. If there's a breakdown and a dman can jump up into the play to finish then great, otherwise I prefer his attention on defense.

I can further go onto to say that Howe's style anchored his team to two conference finals appearances. One appearance they took the greatest team of all time to 7 games. Bourque on the other hand only made it to the finals once with Boston. If memory serves me well they got swept by the Gretzky-less Oilers, or was he still on that team?
- JoeRussomanno

Bourque was more than an offensive defenseman. He could play in his own end as well.

Even if you stretch it out. I would bet you that if you took a guy like Mark Striet (-23 this year) and put him on a team like the Rangers or Boston.. he would probably be a +23... The team you play for plays a huge role in that number as well as the situations you are put in.
- jak521

I'm not so sure his plus/minus would change. He was a minus player with Montreal before he came to the isles. Montreal was the top seeded team in 08.

Only thing I'm comparing Howe to Bourque is that I felt Howe was better defensively. Bourque was better offensively. Personally I don't value offense from my defensemen all that much, sorry that's just my opinion, I'd rather the dmen be capable of shutting the other team down. It's like a Defensive end in football that gets close to 20 sacks a season but his team gives up 30 points a game.
You have forwards whose job it is to net the puck. If there's a breakdown and a dman can jump up into the play to finish then great, otherwise I prefer his attention on defense.

I can further go onto to say that Howe's style anchored his team to two conference finals appearances. One appearance they took the greatest team of all time to 7 games. Bourque on the other hand only made it to the finals once with Boston. If memory serves me well they got swept by the Gretzky-less Oilers, or was he still on that team?
- JoeRussomanno

Bourque went to 2 Finals with Boston

No poop.... but thats how people take it.

oh look.. player A was a +25 and player B was a -3. Player A is much better.
- jak521

Well then just because some people interpret and use the stat incorrectly. That doesn't make it a weak stat. It is but one tool of many to asses a player.

Bourque was more than an offensive defenseman. He could play in his own end as well.
- stveshdy

True but in the playoffs he didn't shut down a whole lot of teams. Howe was more of a post season anchor for Philly than Bourque was for Boston.

and to your Kasper reference, he prob started a bunch of shifts in his own zone against really good competition playing alongside other defense-first type of players. that's a recipe for minuses.
- OrangeBlack27

Exactly.

i'll be there, a few rows behind the flyers bench, also for $45 or so per ticket...

face value on the tix is $140
- Don'tForgetTocchet

dude its a steal lol ! section 122 is always filled with flyers fans!

+/- Can be a good tool if you actually see the game that it correlates to. As a general statistic, it can be very skewed. Players get both pluses, and minuses for goals they had very little to do with if anything at all.

Basically, I think when a player has a very good + number it indicates he is playing well, while a player with a bad - number doesn't necessarily mean he is playing poorly.

It just doesnt give a good account of whats actually happening on the ice.
- jak521

When used in the correct way, it absolutely tells you what's actually happening on the ice

Bourque went to 2 Finals with Boston
- BingoLady

My bad I keep thinking the 88 year was represented by Montreal,
But even still this argument that I can't gauge their post-season plus/minus is more weakened because they both played on good teams yet Howe's plus/minus is worlds better in the postseason.

Is first in all-time points scored by a defenceman with 1,579.
Is first in all-time defence goals scored with 410.
Is third in all-time cumulative plus-minus with 528, behind Larry Robinson and Orr.
Won the Norris Trophy in 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, and 1994.