I just don't see the point of the Penguins going out and getting anyone this year. I know the season isn't over, but without Crosby, Letang, Neal, and Staal, I just can't see how the Pens are going to hold on to a Playoff spot over the next two months.

I know it might be an unpopular decision to just throw in the towel for this season, but i'd consider being a seller come the trade deadline. Moving either Lovejoy or Niskanen wouldn't bring in any top-tier prospects or high draft picks, but Shero may be able to find some additional scoring depth for the 3rd/4th line next year and a mid-round pick or so. One thing i've noticed is that the Pens count on Crosby and Malkin to generate almost all of the offense; a few more goals from the 3rd or 4th line would definetly be a welcome change.
- s0rcerer1984

[quote=sammy87]

Yeah the top 3 down the middle doesn't really work that well when collectively they all have missed more than 2 full seasons in the past 2 seasons. If the Pens want to stay competitive this yr they need a Parise/Iginla caliber player and I just dont see how the Pens could pull it off.

Please God no to Olie J

I am also intrigued by being sellers if you go back and read thru these posts.
- dbell646

I'm kinda torn. I don't like the idea of just writing off the season, but I just can't see how the Pens could make a deep Playoff run in their current state. Why waste assets when your best-case scenario is a 1st round loss?

The Pens have great organizational depth at D w/ a solid Top-4 signed for the near future and very capable 5/6 Dmen in Engelland, Lovejoy, & Niskanen at the NHL. Plus, there is all the WBS/prospect depth at D w/ Bortuzzo, Strait, Sneep, Despres, Harrington, and Morrow in the wings. Teams will pay a king's ransom for Dmen at the tradedeadline so why not dangle Lovejoy and/or Niskanen if you have faith in the WBS guys? Niskanen is a RFA this offseason so who knows if we'll be able to re-sign him or what we could get for him.

Where is our Jr. Blogger? We need answers and direction.
- dbell646

tired... had another 1 am sim, got inthis morning around 5am, went back to bed until 930-10 when my wife called and woke me....

i was hoping to see something done by the pens.... sid or letang on LTIR, a trade, something... as a fan i dont want to see the pens go on a losing streak...

to all the rumors, im going to say yes on hemsky, yes on ruutu, no on gill, no on ollie, no on prospal (rather have umberger)

and yes to picking up brule and anyone else that might help ease the pain, that way we wouldnt have to trade players...

if we do trade, trade martin, lovejoy, nisk, tangradi, sulli, tk....

and now i sit back and wait until i see another rumor

I guess I am way in the minority here. But I think Jokinen wouldn't be that bad. He is a UFA and it would probably take next to nothing to get him. Throw as our Second line center to stem the tide until Staal gets back, then move him to third line center.

I was actually trying to figure what it would take to get him and Iginla. Figure Martin must be included, just to make next year's salary with Iginla work. Then you start adding pieces Calgary might be interested in. I am thinking a decent defensive prospect, possibly Bortuzzo. And then throw in a guy like Kennedy. As I said above Jokinen is a UFA so we don't resign him. Iginla is a straight swap for TK and Martin salary wise still leaving us room for Neal's raise. Then Iginla is gone the following year still allowing us to work new contracts for Crosby and Staal.

I like this option personally. It gives us help now. We add Iginla next year in place of Kennedy. Move Despres up to cover Martin. And the only piece we lose is Bortuzzo, who let's face it doesn't really have a shot at making the NHL club with our current defense and future prospects.

So go ahead rip this apart, but I like it.

Shero will do the same thing he did last year. If there is a trade to be made that makes us better now and in the future, he'll make it. Swinging drastically one way from buyers to sellers wont happen unless we really, really fall out of it.

I guess I am way in the minority here. But I think Jokinen wouldn't be that bad. He is a UFA and it would probably take next to nothing to get him. Throw as our Second line center to stem the tide until Staal gets back, then move him to third line center.

I was actually trying to figure what it would take to get him and Iginla. Figure Martin must be included, just to make next year's salary with Iginla work. Then you start adding pieces Calgary might be interested in. I am thinking a decent defensive prospect, possibly Bortuzzo. And then throw in a guy like Kennedy. As I said above Jokinen is a UFA so we don't resign him. Iginla is a straight swap for TK and Martin salary wise still leaving us room for Neal's raise. Then Iginla is gone the following year still allowing us to work new contracts for Crosby and Staal.

I like this option personally. It gives us help now. We add Iginla next year in place of Kennedy. Move Despres up to cover Martin. And the only piece we lose is Bortuzzo, who let's face it doesn't really have a shot at making the NHL club with our current defense and future prospects.

So go ahead rip this apart, but I like it.
- PensFan1103

First, I've never really been sure why everyone is so eager to get rid of Martin. The guy is a very good shutdown Dman when paired w/ Michalek. Is it because he was billed as having more of an offensive upside when he was signed? He had a rough patch this year, but he was asked to play over +25 mins/gm in Nov. and Dec. w/ pretty solid results. He was tabbed to be the team USA Captain in the 2010 Olympics; that's a pretty solid endorsement of his abilities on and off the ice in the hockey world. You don't find guys like that everywhere.

Second, (assuming you still want to trade Martin) it would take a lot more than Martin+TK+Bortuzzo to get Iginlia. You'll have to add in at least a top-tier prospect and a high draft pick. Try Martin+Bennett+1st. Too rich for a 34yr old winger in my book.

First, I've never really been sure why everyone is so eager to get rid of Martin. The guy is a very good shutdown Dman when paired w/ Michalek. Is it because he was billed as having more of an offensive upside when he was signed? He had a rough patch this year, but he was asked to play over +25 mins/gm in Nov. and Dec. w/ pretty solid results. He was tabbed to be the team USA Captain in the 2010 Olympics; that's a pretty solid endorsement of his abilities on and off the ice in the hockey world. You don't find guys like that everywhere.

Second, (assuming you still want to trade Martin) it would take a lot more than Martin+TK+Bortuzzo to get Iginlia. You'll have to add in at least a top-tier prospect and a high draft pick. Try Martin+Bennett+1st. Too rich for a 34yr old winger in my book.
- s0rcerer1984

for me it was his contract and i know it has been said he took a "pittsburgh" discount to come here and play and supposidly other teams offered him more... but yes i thought he would put up more pts and play a bigger role on the pp..... then with this yr and looking at what we need, i feel trading him and using his cap is the best option with the D depth we have...

First, I've never really been sure why everyone is so eager to get rid of Martin. The guy is a very good shutdown Dman when paired w/ Michalek. Is it because he was billed as having more of an offensive upside when he was signed? He had a rough patch this year, but he was asked to play over +25 mins/gm in Nov. and Dec. w/ pretty solid results. He was tabbed to be the team USA Captain in the 2010 Olympics; that's a pretty solid endorsement of his abilities on and off the ice in the hockey world. You don't find guys like that everywhere.

Second, (assuming you still want to trade Martin) it would take a lot more than Martin+TK+Bortuzzo to get Iginlia. You'll have to add in at least a top-tier prospect and a high draft pick. Try Martin+Bennett+1st. Too rich for a 34yr old winger in my book.
- s0rcerer1984

My problem with Martin is his contract. He is a good defenseman, but if I am ranking the Penguins defensemen with ignoring the contract he comes up 4th. I put Orpik, Letang, and Michalek ahead of him. Now you factor in the salaries and he is the highest paid, I have a problem with that. It's not so much I dislike him, it's more I think his $5 Million can be better utilized elsewhere. I assumed it might take more than those 3, but on the same token if you are saying Martin is as great as he is then there should be no need for anything more.

@TheFourthPeriodDavid Pagnotta
Can't help but wonder what Ray Shero's up to today... #gonefishing

My problem with Martin is his contract. He is a good defenseman, but if I am ranking the Penguins defensemen with ignoring the contract he comes up 4th. I put Orpik, Letang, and Michalek ahead of him. Now you factor in the salaries and he is the highest paid, I have a problem with that. It's not so much I dislike him, it's more I think his $5 Million can be better utilized elsewhere. I assumed it might take more than those 3, but on the same token if you are saying Martin is as great as he is then there should be no need for anything more.
- PensFan1103

I know his contract seems a tad high at $5mil/yr, but you have to factor in the length of the contract. Martin is signed through 2014-15; if the Cap keeps rising at the rate is has been for the past few years he'll likely be underpaid by the past two years of the deal.

I'm also a big fan of the long-term planning Shero has done on the D, of which Martin is a big part. Letang, Orpik, Martin and Michalek are all locked up until 2013-14 at a total cap it of $16.25mil/yr, or 25% of the Pens Cap. over the next few seasons the total Cap hit number is going to remain the same while the Cap % is going to dip. In short, this will allow Shero to shift more and more of the Pens Cap space to the F's and away from the D. If you ship off Martin now you get more Cap Space in the short-term, but you may end up with a less favorable deal for a lesser player in the long run due to salay inflation occuring on all contracts as the Cap continues to rise.

In short, by sticking with the Top-4 D 'as is' you allow Cap inflation to work for you. If you trade Martin now and have to replace him in a year or so, Cap inflation works against you.

You dont trade any of our top 4 dman until one of the 5 or 6 starts consistently outplaying one of them at the NHL level. That hasnt been the case and probably wont be through next year.

You dont trade any of our top 4 dman until one of the 5 or 6 starts consistently outplaying one of them at the NHL level. That hasnt been the case and probably wont be through next year.
- Deadstar

not even despres?

Personally I think Niskanen showed with Martin out for most of December that he can fill in that top 4 D spot very well. And I think Despres showed he will be ready next year to take a full time role as well. Both are much cheaper options with little if any drop off. So you can take your same arguments about the top 4 with their percentage of the cap and make it even better with one of them in the mix instead of Martin.

We just have so much Depth at D and guys who I believe can step up and who have proved as much. So I think if you can take Martin's salary and add it to the offensive depth where we are currently lacking, then why not.

That's just my take on the situation.

not even despres?
- nh4442

See, the fact that the Pens have Despres, Morrow, and, to a lesser extent, Harrington in the wings is the exact reason I wouldn't trade any of the current Top-4.

Imagine having Letang/Orpik, Martin/Michalek, and Depres/Morrow as your D lineup all for less than 25% of the Pens Cap space. From top to bottom, the Pens would have one of the best bluelines in the NHL w/ elite talent at the top (Letang/Orpik) and above average play at the bottom (Despres/Morrow). I view it as a similar tactic to the 3C approach in being able to ice Crosby, Malkin, and Staal continously. Sooner or later, you just overwhelm the other team with your depth in waves.

not even despres?
- nh4442

Hes not ready to Martin's job as well as Martin does right now. Not yet at least. He has to show it consistenly as a 5-6 man in the NHL before I'd feel comfortable moving one of the top 4. He'll get his shot. I just would not want to move those guys too early for the sake of moving them. It hurts our D this year.

Personally I think Niskanen showed with Martin out for most of December that he can fill in that top 4 D spot very well. And I think Despres showed he will be ready next year to take a full time role as well. Both are much cheaper options with little if any drop off. So you can take your same arguments about the top 4 with their percentage of the cap and make it even better with one of them in the mix instead of Martin.

We just have so much Depth at D and guys who I believe can step up and who have proved as much. So I think if you can take Martin's salary and add it to the offensive depth where we are currently lacking, then why not.

That's just my take on the situation.
- PensFan1103

Niskanen's play has taken a nose dive of late.

See, the fact that the Pens have Despres, Morrow, and, to a lesser extent, Harrington in the wings is the exact reason I wouldn't trade any of the current Top-4.

Imagine having Letang/Orpik, Martin/Michalek, and Depres/Morrow as your D lineup all for less than 25% of the Pens Cap space. From top to bottom, the Pens would have one of the best bluelines in the NHL w/ elite talent at the top (Letang/Orpik) and above average play at the bottom (Despres/Morrow). I view it as a similar tactic to the 3C approach in being able to ice Crosby, Malkin, and Staal continously. Sooner or later, you just overwhelm the other team with your depth in waves.
- s0rcerer1984

I don't think you can do that, because the top talent guys need the extra minutes. Then you are under playing Despres and Morrow, and Morrow won't possibly be up until 2013/2014 which is the last year you have all those guys. Then you have Martin signed and you will not be able to sign Orpik, Letang, Despres and Malkin who will all be up that year. I would rather have any of those guys over Martin. And to have the ball in Martin's court to waive his NTC in order to keep those guys would irritate me.

See, the fact that the Pens have Despres, Morrow, and, to a lesser extent, Harrington in the wings is the exact reason I wouldn't trade any of the current Top-4.

Imagine having Letang/Orpik, Martin/Michalek, and Depres/Morrow as your D lineup all for less than 25% of the Pens Cap space. From top to bottom, the Pens would have one of the best bluelines in the NHL w/ elite talent at the top (Letang/Orpik) and above average play at the bottom (Despres/Morrow). I view it as a similar tactic to the 3C approach in being able to ice Crosby, Malkin, and Staal continously. Sooner or later, you just overwhelm the other team with your depth in waves.
- s0rcerer1984

Whoa I don't like that at all. I don't want to see Despres and Morrow playing 10 minutes a night. Nor do I think you can call either of them "average".

Personally I think Niskanen showed with Martin out for most of December that he can fill in that top 4 D spot very well. And I think Despres showed he will be ready next year to take a full time role as well. Both are much cheaper options with little if any drop off. So you can take your same arguments about the top 4 with their percentage of the cap and make it even better with one of them in the mix instead of Martin.

We just have so much Depth at D and guys who I believe can step up and who have proved as much. So I think if you can take Martin's salary and add it to the offensive depth where we are currently lacking, then why not.

That's just my take on the situation.
- PensFan1103

Whether Martin is moved or not next year, i'd think Despres will make the lineup. He looked pretty good in limited play w/ the Pens this year and would probably be a better option than Lovejoy going forward due to his size.

As for Niskanen, I do hope the Pens resign him, but I don't see him as a replacement for Martin. Martin and Michalek are meant to play the role Scuderi and Gill played in the Pens Cup run. Ie, defense, defense, and more defense. If your looking for a cheaper version of Martin from within the Pens organization, look to Strait or Sneep, not Niskanen.

I know putting more of the Cap into offense is always going to be more popular than putting it into defense, but when Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Letang, & Staal are all healthy, I don't think the Pens will need any further help scoring goals. I'd rather have an extremely deep D so the Pens are capable of winning those 2-1 defensive battles you need to on the way to the Cup.

During the cup finals we won all 6 defensemen were consistenly over 15 minutes a night. I dont see a problem with having high end guys be 5-6 pairing. Its not like putting Beau Bennet as a 4th line winger. Defensemen are different. More time to divvy up.

Whoa I don't like that at all. I don't want to see Despres and Morrow playing 10 minutes a night. Nor do I think you can call either of them "average".
- brianb0422

1) I called Despres and Morrow "above average," not average. Ie, meaning that even at a very young age I could see Despres and Morrow performing better than the average 3/4 Dmen in the NHL.

2) I would hope Shero scales back the mins of guys like Orpik, Letang, and Martin w/ a better 5/6 pairing. I love those guys, but +25min/gm is a lot over the course of a season. If the 5/6 D can more than hold their own then let the top guys rest a bit more so they are fresher come Playoff time. I'd play the minutes something like this:

1/2 D: 21min
3/4 D: 21min
5/6 D: 18min

Of course this is oversimplying in not accouting for either the PK or PP, but you get the general idea.

I don't think you can do that, because the top talent guys need the extra minutes. Then you are under playing Despres and Morrow, and Morrow won't possibly be up until 2013/2014 which is the last year you have all those guys. Then you have Martin signed and you will not be able to sign Orpik, Letang, Despres and Malkin who will all be up that year. I would rather have any of those guys over Martin. And to have the ball in Martin's court to waive his NTC in order to keep those guys would irritate me.
- PensFan1103

That is true, but given how well Morrow was in camp on the PP I can see him making the NHL roster a bit sooner than expected. Letang is solid on the PP, but he's not Gonchar-esque talent as a PP QB. From what I saw of Morrow, he is.

In either case, Letang/Orpik, Martin/Michalek, and Despres/Engelland w/ Lovejoy or Niskanen as the 7th Dman for a few years is still some very impressive depth on D.

1) I called Despres and Morrow "above average," not average. Ie, meaning that even at a very young age I could see Despres and Morrow performing better than the average 3/4 Dmen in the NHL.

2) I would hope Shero scales back the mins of guys like Orpik, Letang, and Martin w/ a better 5/6 pairing. I love those guys, but +25min/gm is a lot over the course of a season. If the 5/6 D can more than hold their own then let the top guys rest a bit more so they are fresher come Playoff time. I'd play the minutes something like this:

1/2 D: 21min
3/4 D: 21min
5/6 D: 18min

Of course this is oversimplying in not accouting for either the PK or PP, but you get the general idea.
- s0rcerer1984

There is a reason that there are currently 104 D men across the league consistently averaging 20+ minutes. They aren't skating as far or as hard.

Personally I don't buy in to the idea of resting players for the playoffs. I'd want my top guys out there as much as possible and use the third pairing much as it is used now. Sparingly.

/2 cents