No problem.

JVR scored 36 goals. Bozak scored 11. Combined they scored 47.
Tavares scored 37 goals. Tavares is a very capable playmaker. Let's say he helps another player score 11 more goals than they normally would (Kapanen scores 18 goals instead of 7) thus equaling both JVR and Bozak in goal production. Let's say Tavares goes above and beyond and helps Kapanen score 28 goals and the player that replaces Kapanen scores 5 goals. That's 15 more total goals than last year.

Are we on the same page yet?
- Unholy_Goalie

No, because you are still taking away two players and only adding one!
Come on UG. Take away 2 players. Add 1 player. Leaves you -1 player!

If you are taking away JVR and Bozak's goals, then adding Tavares' goals, you also need to add in whatever new player joins the roster. Only then can you look at who his new linemates will be and consider how he might elevate their goal totals.

Until you master this basic math/logical conundrum, we will not be on the same page!
You are taking away the goals from two players currently on the team and only adding goals for one new player. Where is the other player? This is why it's wrong even before you worry about JT helping someone like Kapanen score more goals (a player already on the team, not a new addition to make up for losing 2 guys).

Now, take into account that Tavares was on the ice for 114 goals against (69 even strength). Bozak and JVR were on the ice for 43 and 48. We could add those two numbers together but it wouldn't be accurate because they were on the ice together 85% of the time so we'd be counting a lot of those goals twice. But let's say it's 39, just for the hell of it. That's still a -30 goals against difference.

And Tavares, with Bailey and Lee, were 31 goals for and 39 goals against as a line 5 on 5. And Tavares was 2nd on the Islanders in giveaways with 78 (Bozak and JVR combined for 80 giveaways).

But the Islanders goalies sucked and not every goal is Tavares' fault so let's say half of that -30 goal difference (-15) is the fault of bad goaltending (which the Leafs don't have).

Where are we? Right back where we started. The goals replaced (or maybe even a bit more) but the defense still unimproved and the team, overall, only slightly better than before. Why? Because the offense was replaced but the defense is the same.

Am I saying Tavares is bad defensively or a bad signing? Absolutely not. I'm just saying, he's not Bergeron in his ability to prevent goals even though his ability to create goals is very strong. The issue still remains that while Tavares may replace and even exceed the goal totals of the departing players, the Leafs, as a team, still will most likely give up a lot of shots, chances and goals against and thus, may be only slightly further ahead (beat Boston but lose to Tampa Bay for example) as a team unless they improve the defense.
- Unholy_Goalie

Forget the goals against. It isn't accurate when comparing these guys considering the Islanders didn't have an NHL calibre goalie and their defense was even pooptier than ours.

Tavares doesn't have to be Bergeron for (frank)s sakes. We're not losing a Bergeron, we're losing a Bozak. Do you honestly think Tavares is a worse defensive center than Bozak?! Is this really what you are trying to say?!!!

As long as he's better defensively than Bozak, it's an upgrade on defense. He's definitely an upgrade on offense over Bozak.

P.S. Giveaways is not a good stat for judging a player. If you took a list of the highest amount of giveaways by player, it would look like an allstar team. Offensive players that carry the puck alot and play a lot of minutes are going to have more giveaways.
Here's a link, it should already be set showing the players with the most giveaways last year. Tavares is 28th, and the top 30 are some of the best players in the league. https://www.foxsports.com...team=0&qual=1&sortOrder=1

No, because you are still taking away two players and only adding one!
Come on UG. Take away 2 players. Add 1 player. Leaves you -1 player!

If you are taking away JVR and Bozak's goals, then adding Tavares' goals, you also need to add in whatever new player joins the roster. Only then can you look at who his new linemates will be and consider how he might elevate their goal totals.

Until you master this basic math/logical conundrum, we will not be on the same page!
You are taking away the goals from two players currently on the team and only adding goals for one new player. Where is the other player? This is why it's wrong even before you worry about JT helping someone like Kapanen score more goals (a player already on the team, not a new addition to make up for losing 2 guys).
- Thecakeisalie

Kapanen didn't play an entire (frank)ing season. I added 11 extra goals for Kapanen and 10 extra goals for Marner and 5 extra goals for the player that replaces Kapanen (your magic 2nd player you completely missed) plus 37 goals for Tavares and it still doesn't sink in.

Kapanen gets promoted and plays a full season, scores the 7 he scored last year, plus 11 more that Tavares spoon feeds him, Marner scores 10 more goals because of Tavares, Tavares scores 37 goals himself and the player that replaces Kapanen lower on the depth chart scores 5 goals for a grand total of 70 goals, 58 (11+10+37) of them we'll say are directly because of Tavares, 11 more than the 47 scored by JVR and Bozak.

Forget the goals against. It isn't accurate when comparing these guys considering the Islanders didn't have an NHL calibre goalie and their defense was even pooptier than ours.

Tavares doesn't have to be Bergeron for (frank)s sakes. We're not losing a Bergeron, we're losing a Bozak. Do you honestly think Tavares is a worse defensive center than Bozak?! Is this really what you are trying to say?!!!

As long as he's better defensively than Bozak, it's an upgrade on defense. He's definitely an upgrade on offense over Bozak.

P.S. Giveaways is not a good stat for judging a player. If you took a list of the highest amount of giveaways by player, it would look like an allstar team. Offensive players that carry the puck alot and play a lot of minutes are going to have more giveaways.

You can't just forget goals against. It's part of the whole picture.

And yes, talented players give the puck away as part of the risk of being offensively creative which is why teams have defense and goalies. But if the defense sucks (which it does in Toronto) your team is still going to have trouble reducing shots, chances and goals against which is what I've been trying to tell you about adding Tavares. The offense is equal or better but the defense still sucks which means the teams results could only be slightly better than before unless the defense is improved.

Kapanen didn't play an entire (frank)ing season. I added 11 extra goals for Kapanen and 10 extra goals for Marner and 5 extra goals for the player that replaces Kapanen (your magic 2nd player you completely missed) plus 37 goals for Tavares and it still doesn't sink in.



You can't just forget goals against. It's part of the whole picture.

And yes, talented players give the puck away as part of the risk of being offensively creative which is why teams have defense and goalies. But if the defense sucks (which it does in Toronto) your team is still going to have trouble reducing shots, chances and goals against which is what I've been trying to tell you about adding Tavares. The offense is equal or better but the defense still sucks which means the teams results could only be slightly better than before unless the defense is improved.
- Unholy_Goalie

Looks like I did misread your goals explanation, my bad. So you have corrected this from before.
Although if we had someone like Johnson taking the extra spot, I'd think he could probably get more than 5 goals in the season. That's a little pessimistic, but maybe made up for in your estimate of Kapanen at 28.

https://www.foxsports.com...team=0&qual=1&sortOrder=1

Here again is a link for the most giveaways. It's among the best players in the league. It's a terrible stat for deciding on how defensive a player is. Look at the list and tell me most of those players are bad defensively. I'll admit Gardiner is #3 though.

Once again, do you think Tavares is worse defensively than Bozak? If the answer is no, then by getting Tavares and losing Bozak, we'd be better defensively. So what do you think?

Is Tavares in your estimation an upgrade, downgrade, or sideways move compared to Bozak, when factoring in their defensive game?

Adding Tavares will increase the Matthews-Tavares-Kadri points total (vs Matthews-Bozak-Kadri top 3 Cs). It will be hard for opposing teams to get matchups, and any of these lines will eventually profit from the weaker matchup throughout the different games.

If you add Tavares, Leafs will be a better puck posession team, and Tavares is way better on the defensive side than Bozak is.
JVR is very weak on the defensive side as well.
So the most important next adds:

1. 2nd line LW (keep Hyman with Matthews; Marleau with Kadri) who is responsible defensively and can score 40-60 points at least. (Zucker, or what about a wild trade for Panarin?!).
2. a backup goalie (Anderson / Lehner / Khudobin).

Leafs offense having the puck more time, and the Forwards being better defensively, will eventually make the needed topline D add less important.

Apart from Karlsson (expensive) and maybe guys like Manson, Myers, ..? (2nd line D men) there don't seem to be any good D-men available anyways. So best not to try and hit for a homerun if no clear option available.

Seems like an obvious next step to try and trade Gardiner ++ for a 2nd line LW and then sign the backup goalie.

Go Leafs Go! It's happening - Tavares will be a Leaf for next 7 years!!

My, oh my...it would appear that Mr. Tax-Expert himself forgot how to count. Fufufu...

Tomorrow can't come soon enough, UG is driving you guys mad

My, oh my...it would appear that Mr. Tax-Expert himself forgot how to count. Fufufu...
- Steven_Seagull

That was some bad math... Even worse was the scrambling trying to talk himself out of his fail corner...

That was some bad math... Even worse was the scrambling trying to talk himself out of his fail corner...
- SofaKingBored

It's (frank)ing unbelievable. It's like he had some abusive parents that would beat the poop out of him if he made a minor mistake that has resulted in a complex where he has to be right 100% of the time to the extent he will do mental gymnastics to avoid having to admit he just made a 3rd grade level mathematical error

That was some bad math... Even worse funnier was the scrambling trying to talk himself out of his fail corner...
- SofaKingBored

Fixed

It's (frank)ing unbelievable. It's like he had some abusive parents that would beat the poop out of him if he made a minor mistake that has resulted in a complex where he has to be right 100% of the time to the extent he will do mental gymnastics to avoid having to admit he just made a 3rd grade level mathematical error
- poopstash

I’ve been saying it for months, the guy has an inferiority complex. It would explain his argumentative behaviour and need to always be right.

(He should just have a sex change and become a wife... )

I’ve been saying it for months, the guy has an inferiority complex. It would explain his argumentative behaviour and need to always be right.

(He should just have a sex change and become a wife... )
- Steven_Seagull

A little Pre Canada day wake n bake
Why am I refreshing Twitter every 5 mins at this time of morning....

It's (frank)ing unbelievable. It's like he had some abusive parents that would beat the poop out of him if he made a minor mistake that has resulted in a complex where he has to be right 100% of the time to the extent he will do mental gymnastics to avoid having to admit he just made a 3rd grade level mathematical error
- poopstash

Far more concerning is his need to be internet champ every night btween 1 am and 4 am.

Morning, fellas. It's a good day to stay inside, watch soccer and pray TSN doesn't flash any signing updates across the bottom of the screen.

Far more concerning is his need to be internet champ every night btween 1 am and 4 am.

Morning, fellas. It's a good day to stay inside, watch soccer and pray TSN doesn't flash any signing updates across the bottom of the screen.
- Atomic Wedgie

yea..trolling in the internet past midnight cant be a very successful path.

Tomorrow can't come soon enough, UG is driving you guys mad
- LeftCoaster

Tomorrow can't come soon enough, UG is driving you guys mad
- LeftCoaster

Just a bit. How’s the golden years?

Far more concerning is his need to be internet champ every night btween 1 am and 4 am.

Morning, fellas. It's a good day to stay inside, watch soccer and pray TSN doesn't flash any signing updates across the bottom of the screen.
- Atomic Wedgie

if Portugal loses (let's hope for that!) , what does it mean for chances of Tavares joining the Leafs?

No problem.

JVR scored 36 goals. Bozak scored 11. Combined they scored 47.
Tavares scored 37 goals. Tavares is a very capable playmaker. Let's say he helps another player score 11 more goals than they normally would (Kapanen scores 18 goals instead of 7) thus equaling both JVR and Bozak in goal production. Let's say Tavares goes above and beyond and helps Marner score 10 more goals too and the player that replaces Kapanen scores 5 goals. That's 15 more total goals than last year.
...
- Unholy_Goalie

Offensive production is not simply lost.

Tavares > teh bozek
New winger/Young winger < JVR in goalscoring (probably)

but even if Tavares doesn't sign, the net loss of offense will be nowhere near the goals and points that JVR and teh bozek had.

if Portugal loses (let's hope for that!) , what does it mean for chances of Tavares joining the Leafs?
- MaximusAurelius

Apparently Rinaldo doesn't pay taxes. I know that matters, somehow.

That was some bad math... Even worse was the scrambling trying to talk himself out of his fail corner...
- SofaKingBored

Mr King!

How is the chesterfield market these days?

No, because you are still taking away two players and only adding one!
Come on UG. Take away 2 players. Add 1 player. Leaves you -1 player!

If you are taking away JVR and Bozak's goals, then adding Tavares' goals, you also need to add in whatever new player joins the roster. Only then can you look at who his new linemates will be and consider how he might elevate their goal totals.

- Thecakeisalie

Don't even bother. The whole argument is stupid. There are way too many variables. How many goals are they going to lose from Kadri not maintaining the pace? OR, what if Kadri scores more goals as Marner continues to develop. For that matter, what if Marner/Matthews/Nylander also score more goals. How many do they gain by icing a faster, more offensive 4th line? What if the whole team scores 40 less goals but allows 50 less?

Even without Tavares, they might be just fine. JVR and teh bozek brought very little else to the table.

Don't even bother. The whole argument is stupid. There are way too many variables. How many goals are they going to lose from Kadri not maintaining the pace? OR, what if Kadri scores more goals as Marner continues to develop. For that matter, what if Marner/Matthews/Nylander also score more goals. How many do they gain my icing a faster, more offensive 4th line? What if the whole team scores 40 less goals but allows 50 less?

Even without Tavares, they might be just fine. JVR and teh bozek brought very little else to the table.
- Aetherial

Agree with all that. Key is that the best players on this team are kids and getting better.

No problem.

JVR scored 36 goals. Bozak scored 11. Combined they scored 47.
Tavares scored 37 goals. Tavares is a very capable playmaker. Let's say he helps another player score 11 more goals than they normally would (Kapanen scores 18 goals instead of 7) thus equaling both JVR and Bozak in goal production. Let's say Tavares goes above and beyond and helps Marner score 10 more goals too and the player that replaces Kapanen scores 5 goals. That's 15 more total goals than last year.

Are we on the same page yet?

Now, take into account that Tavares was on the ice for 114 goals against (69 even strength). Bozak and JVR were on the ice for 43 and 48. We could add those two numbers together but it wouldn't be accurate because they were on the ice together 85% of the time so we'd be counting a lot of those goals twice. But let's say it's 39, just for the hell of it. That's still a -30 goals against difference.

And Tavares, with Bailey and Lee, were 31 goals for and 39 goals against as a line 5 on 5. And Tavares was 2nd on the Islanders in giveaways with 78 (Bozak and JVR combined for 80 giveaways).

But the Islanders goalies sucked and not every goal is Tavares' fault so let's say half of that -30 goal difference (-15) is the fault of bad goaltending (which the Leafs don't have).

Where are we? Right back where we started. The goals replaced (or maybe even a bit more) but the defense still unimproved and the team, overall, only slightly better than before. Why? Because the offense was replaced but the defense is the same.

Am I saying Tavares is bad defensively or a bad signing? Absolutely not. I'm just saying, he's not Bergeron in his ability to prevent goals even though his ability to create goals is very strong. The issue still remains that while Tavares may replace and even exceed the goal totals of the departing players, the Leafs, as a team, still will most likely give up a lot of shots, chances and goals against and thus, may be only slightly further ahead (beat Boston but lose to Tampa Bay for example) as a team unless they improve the defense.
- Unholy_Goalie

The bozak line was highly sheltered, which would no longer have to happen if Tavares came here.

Presumably a lot of the goals against JT came from other teams top lines, bozak didn't face those those lines and still got caved defensively

My, oh my...it would appear that Mr. Tax-Expert himself forgot how to count. Fufufu...
- Steven_Seagull

One (frank)ing morning would be nice!You know to come on here and not have to skim through pages of UG arguing with everyone.Its becoming too much again.