- YuenglingJagr

It's late. It's been a looong day. I'm going to bed.

It's late. It's been a looong day. I'm going to bed.
- Aussiepenguin

Have you ever encountered one of those like foot-long spiders they have in Australia? If so, how do you react?

JFC

Penguins people offering "insight," tired narrative about the fans

I'll be back in a few days when the Penguins people move TF on and people want to talk about hockey

From an article from 2014:

If you're a Pennsylvania taxpayer, you'll be paying more for Pittsburgh's hockey arena than originally anticipated. From Thursday's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

Under the 2007 deal cut to build Consol Energy Center, the state's contribution was set at $7.5 million annually for 30 years, but in reality, taxpayers have ponied up far more than that and likely will be on the hook for even more in the years ahead.

Since 2009, state taxpayers have shelled out an extra $5.08 million to cover shortfalls in the money needed to pay off the debt on the $321 million arena, and the state is estimating that it will need another $5.6 million over the next five years for the very same purpose.

That's in addition to the annual $7.5 million in payments the state is contractually obligated to make.

Just a friendly reminder: When the Wells Fargo Center (then called Spectrum II, and eventually Corestates Center) was built between 1994 and 1996, the City of Philadelphia and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania contributed basically zero (0) dollars of American currency for its construction. Ed Snider and Spectacor secured private financing for the entire ~$210 million cost of the building -- roughly $337 million in 2014 dollars -- and even today, Spectacor leases the land the building sits on from the city.

The taxpayers did pay for some necessary infrastructure improvements around the Sports Complex area, including the ~$5 million expense to knock down the old JFK Stadium, which sat on the land now occupied by the WFC. Ultimately the public contribution to the project was a stack of pennies compared to the $7.5 million+ per year for 30 (!) years that Pennsylvania taxpayers are shelling out to keep the Penguins in the state -- much of which comes from the affluent eastern half of the state.

(The Penguins did have an agreement with a casino developer in 2006 which would have brought a $290 million arena, privately financed, to Pittsburgh. That casino developer was not awarded a gaming license by the state and therefore the plan to build the arena fell through, which immediately led to threats of relocation from Mario Lemieux and the Penguins. If you're interested there more on that, and Gov. Ed Rendell's awkward position in the middle of it, here.)

Even more impressive, though, is that while the Penguins used relocation to Kansas City and Quebec as a dang negotiating tactic to bleed more money from the state for Consol Energy Center, Snider easily could've moved the Flyers out of the state. In fact, a move to New Jersey may have been the financially smart decision.

In the early 90s, when the Spectrum II plan was still up in the air, Spectacor had an offer from Jersey officials to move the team across the river to Camden, and the state would've paid two-thirds of the construction cost. Philly couldn't match that offer because it was damn broke, but Snider still balked at New Jersey because he didn't want to move out of the city. He then went on to nail down the financing on his own.

He did manage to pay back what he owed (not to mention what he himself was owed). But that wasn't until they became relevant again in the late 2000s.

But remember, this was a team that was playing to close to 60% capacity for the better part of a decade. Now, everyone is Pittsburgh "was always a fan" and "has always supported the team."
- jmatchett383

It's something that is hard to establish. When the fans are reacting to mismanagement of any kind the easiest thing to do is stop spending money. I've seen it in here (on the Buzzzz), so many times where posters are saying stop going to the games things have to change. Then the other side of that is keep supporting incompetence & you will keep getting incompetence.

So it's not black & white in my opinion about fans supporting their teams. When teams become good, of course you will get more people spending money - hell, they might even get to 25% capacity in Florida home game if the Panthers are good next season.

Hot take: While no Flyers defenseman besides Provorov was "good," Brandon Manning was not the worst Flyers defenseman in the series. I actually thought he was effective in games 5 and 6. Radko Gudas was HORRIBLE.

If they had played Games 1, 3, and 4 with the same energy shown in 5 and 6, we may be gearing up for a game 7. Either way, despite some non-calls, the better team won. I'm not sure if Games 5 and 6 can wash the taste of Game 4 out of my mouth, but they went down swinging, which I can live with.

Seeing fans throw poop live at the game was truly disappointing. But if I’m being honest it was far more disappointing when I saw a slime ball pocket my hat that I tried to throw on the ice for Couts.

Have you ever encountered one of those like foot-long spiders they have in Australia? If so, how do you react?
- jmatchett383

A Huntsman? Yes. Very common.

I'll tell you a story when 1 came after me tomorrow - fast (frank)ers as well.

He did manage to pay back what he owed (not to mention what he himself was owed). But that wasn't until they became relevant again in the late 2000s.

But remember, this was a team that was playing to close to 60% capacity for the better part of a decade. Now, everyone is Pittsburgh "was always a fan" and "has always supported the team."
- jmatchett383

Didn't know 3 years was better part of a decade........

Passing, shot selection and quickness all seemed to fail the eye test in this series. Pens did a good job of covering Giroux but Vorackek was lost for large segments of the series, so much for 16 million plus of payroll-zero production.

Hot take: While no Flyers defenseman besides Provorov was "good," Brandon Manning was not the worst Flyers defenseman in the series. I actually thought he was effective in games 5 and 6. Radko Gudas was HORRIBLE.

If they had played Games 1, 3, and 4 with the same energy shown in 5 and 6, we may be gearing up for a game 7. Either way, despite some non-calls, the better team won. I'm not sure if Games 5 and 6 can wash the taste of Game 4 out of my mouth, but they went down swinging, which I can live with.
- jmatchett383

For me he was one of the most disappointing players this year. I actually thought he would be someone to count on but he just wasn't good. Gudas and Weal were both let downs for this year.

It's something that is hard to establish. When the fans are reacting to mismanagement of any kind the easiest thing to do is stop spending money. I've seen it in here (on the Buzzzz), so many times where posters are saying stop going to the games things have to change. Then the other side of that is keep supporting incompetence & you will keep getting incompetence.

So it's not black & white in my opinion about fans supporting their teams. When teams become good, of course you will get more people spending money - hell, they might even get to 25% capacity in Florida home game if the Panthers are good next season.
- Aussiepenguin

Generally, yes. However, I had an 11-game plan in 06/07, the worst Flyers season ever. It was so bad that a solid defensive play was worthy of an applause. They were hard to watch.

I was at the last 2 games that season. I don't know the gate number, but both games were at least 75% full just going by my eye. So yes, while it was only one bad year, the fans still came out and supported their team even though they were putrid.

From an article from 2014:

If you're a Pennsylvania taxpayer, you'll be paying more for Pittsburgh's hockey arena than originally anticipated. From Thursday's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

Under the 2007 deal cut to build Consol Energy Center, the state's contribution was set at $7.5 million annually for 30 years, but in reality, taxpayers have ponied up far more than that and likely will be on the hook for even more in the years ahead.

Since 2009, state taxpayers have shelled out an extra $5.08 million to cover shortfalls in the money needed to pay off the debt on the $321 million arena, and the state is estimating that it will need another $5.6 million over the next five years for the very same purpose.

That's in addition to the annual $7.5 million in payments the state is contractually obligated to make.

Just a friendly reminder: When the Wells Fargo Center (then called Spectrum II, and eventually Corestates Center) was built between 1994 and 1996, the City of Philadelphia and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania contributed basically zero (0) dollars of American currency for its construction. Ed Snider and Spectacor secured private financing for the entire ~$210 million cost of the building -- roughly $337 million in 2014 dollars -- and even today, Spectacor leases the land the building sits on from the city.

The taxpayers did pay for some necessary infrastructure improvements around the Sports Complex area, including the ~$5 million expense to knock down the old JFK Stadium, which sat on the land now occupied by the WFC. Ultimately the public contribution to the project was a stack of pennies compared to the $7.5 million+ per year for 30 (!) years that Pennsylvania taxpayers are shelling out to keep the Penguins in the state -- much of which comes from the affluent eastern half of the state.

(The Penguins did have an agreement with a casino developer in 2006 which would have brought a $290 million arena, privately financed, to Pittsburgh. That casino developer was not awarded a gaming license by the state and therefore the plan to build the arena fell through, which immediately led to threats of relocation from Mario Lemieux and the Penguins. If you're interested there more on that, and Gov. Ed Rendell's awkward position in the middle of it, here.)

Even more impressive, though, is that while the Penguins used relocation to Kansas City and Quebec as a dang negotiating tactic to bleed more money from the state for Consol Energy Center, Snider easily could've moved the Flyers out of the state. In fact, a move to New Jersey may have been the financially smart decision.

In the early 90s, when the Spectrum II plan was still up in the air, Spectacor had an offer from Jersey officials to move the team across the river to Camden, and the state would've paid two-thirds of the construction cost. Philly couldn't match that offer because it was damn broke, but Snider still balked at New Jersey because he didn't want to move out of the city. He then went on to nail down the financing on his own.
- J35Bacher

Cmon man I'm trying to go to bed. I read the first part it's about the arena? If you like look up NSW state government upgrading stadiums in Sydney.

How much money has the arena put back into the city?

Calgary & Ottawa both want funding don't they? Edmonton got funding didn't they?

Didn't know 3 years was better part of a decade........
- cap1681

01/02 through 05/06. So okay, half a decade. My bad.

For me he was one of the most disappointing players this year. I actually thought he would be someone to count on but he just wasn't good. Gudas and Weal were both let downs for this year.
- J35Bacher

Also, it was nice of Wayne Simmonds to finally show up for the last game of the year. Where was that guy for the first 87 games this season?

Ok cool. When those guys are main cogs in back to back Cups let me know. Thanks for playing. Only a matter of time before Laczynksi scores 4 consecutive goals in a playoff game. I'll be counting the days.
- PLindbergh31

Also, it was nice of Wayne Simmonds to finally show up for the last game of the year. Where was that guy for the first 87 games this season?
- jmatchett383

It is amazing how much better Couturier makes everyone look. Simmonds did seem to have a quicker (re: more normal) step though

Generally, yes. However, I had an 11-game plan in 06/07, the worst Flyers season ever. It was so bad that a solid defensive play was worthy of an applause. They were hard to watch.

I was at the last 2 games that season. I don't know the gate number, but both games were at least 75% full just going by my eye. So yes, while it was only one bad year, the fans still came out and supported their team even though they were putrid.
- jmatchett383

Teams being bad & organisations being bad are 2 different things. As I said, it's not black & white if/when fans desert their teams. I think there's a few in Edmonton rethinking their commitment.

Also, it was nice of Wayne Simmonds to finally show up for the last game of the year. Where was that guy for the first 87 games this season?
- jmatchett383

If it's an injury i'll feel different.

Voracek looked lost all series.

It is amazing how much better Couturier makes everyone look. Simmonds did seem to have a quicker (re: more normal) step though
- YuenglingJagr

It wasn't just his speed. He was getting involved, he was using his size, he was engaged, and he was actually being noticeable.

We need to get rid of shutdown Seanie.

It is amazing how much better Couturier makes everyone look. Simmonds did seem to have a quicker (re: more normal) step though
- YuenglingJagr

Was thinking the same thing.

Even a broken Sean Couturier is better than a fully functioning Val Filppula.

01/02 through 05/06. So okay, half a decade. My bad.
- jmatchett383

It was 3 seasons. 01/02 through 03/04. There was no season in 04/05, and in 05/06, the attendance was back up in the 80s.

- KINGKENZO

Gudas just turned the puck over again.

If it's an injury i'll feel different.

Voracek looked lost all series.
- J35Bacher

I'm willing to bet both Simmonds and Voracek are hurt and will require some sort of surgery.

I can't recall ever seeing Voracek play this much on the perimeter.

It was 3 seasons. 01/02 through 03/04. There was no season in 04/05, and in 05/06, the attendance was back up in the 80s.
- cap1681

Yes...that would be the better part of half a decade, no?

If I was wrong about 05/06, I apologize. I didn't think the attendance went back up until the second half of 06/07.