That's the problem, you want to use luck as reasoning for the defensive issues that Sanheim had rather than focus on the actual weaknesses in his game. It's just a convenient excuse to use to satisfy a bias rather than making a proper on ice evaluation of a player despite his talent level. I have no doubt that Sanheim is capable of playing in the NHL but first and foremost he has to be able to defend well at the NHL level. Despite popular opinion he was not better than Manning at that when he was with the Flyers which is why he was not playing and ultimately why he was sent down to get playing time. Maybe that has changed since now and then, time will tell.

The comparison you made was pretty poor because the positives that Sanheim brought to the ice did not come close to off setting the negatives which is clearly the case in the overwhelming positive for both Gostisbehere and Voracek.
- MJL

I have to ask, do you keep a thesaurus in your back pocket?

I'm fine with him as the #7. Hak doesn't but whatever.

What I don't get though, is even if you do believe Manning is better than Sanheim right now, Sanheim is going to blow him away once he gets acclimated to this league.
- JFlyers00

i can live with him as a 7, too. this third pair is legitimately hurting them. i would have liked sanheim to stay in the lineup, but then again, i thought morin earned a spot out of camp, too.

he will get his chance. i just don't see that chance happening this season unless there's an injury.

That is completely accurate regarding Filppula. Playing a good defensive center role is what the Flyers need. Any scoring is a bonus.
- mickel25

agree mostly but the best teams get scoring from the 4th line, Flip has some

well a full blown Sanheim vs Manning and i didn't start it...

Advance stats support Sanheim, upside supports SanHeim but Manning came back and they started winning and Hak values experience. I also think Sanheim's confidence was rocked and he had to go down.

The only data that supports Manning being better is that he is playing.

Sanheim was not better than Manning was.
- MJL

Yes he was. Ever since they put Manning with Gudas that pairing has struggled, something you admitted.

I'm fine with him as the #7. Hak doesn't but whatever.

What I don't get though, is even if you do believe Manning is better than Sanheim right now, Sanheim is going to blow him away once he gets acclimated to this league.
- JFlyers00

Your last point is so point on correct....it’s scary.

well a full blown Sanheim vs Manning and i didn't start it...

Advance stats support Sanheim, upside supports SanHeim but Manning came back and they started winning and Hak values experience. I also think Sanheim's confidence was rocked and he had to go down.

The only data that supports Manning being better is that he is playing.
- wcorvette

they are winning in spite of him. and gudas.

I'm fine with him as the #7. Hak doesn't but whatever.

What I don't get though, is even if you do believe Manning is better than Sanheim right now, Sanheim is going to blow him away once he gets acclimated to this league.
- JFlyers00

Sanheim is not only going to surpass Manning, he's going to surpass MacDonald and Hagg also and most likely not too far down the line. A year from now will see a big difference in the player.

Yes he was. Ever since they put Manning with Gudas that pairing has struggled, something you admitted.
- Feanor

I disagree that he was. The struggles of that pairing has just as much to do with Gudas as it does Manning. They just don't have any chemistry together in my opinion.

they are winning in spite of him. and gudas.
- hammarby31

In many ways, they truly are. I find myself holding my breath every time that pair is on the ice. They don’t communicate well as a pair, nor complement each other’s skill set. Gudas has played well for long stretches with various partners and I think he can succeed with a better partner. Manning however, is just not a good NHL defenseman.

I can understand leaving Sanheim in LHV but you owe it to the better players on this team to do what it takes to acquire a better defenseman that can anchor the second pairing and give this team a better chance of winning in the playoffs.

Are they a favorite or a top contender? No, they’re not. But they have a chance, and with one more good move, Hextall can give them a better chance.

There is no late 70s Habs, mid 80s Oilers or late 90s Red Wings in this league. No team is flawless, and no team isn’t one or 2 key injuries away from dropping down a notch or 2.

Why can’t we be the next 93 Habs or 06 Hurricanes? Make a move Ron, please.

well a full blown Sanheim vs Manning and i didn't start it...

Advance stats support Sanheim, upside supports SanHeim but Manning came back and they started winning and Hak values experience. I also think Sanheim's confidence was rocked and he had to go down.

The only data that supports Manning being better is that he is playing.
- wcorvette

You can't just compare advanced stats between players and say it favors one over the other. Very rarely is it an apples to apples comparison. How about GF%? Manning's is 49.02% and Sanheim's is 38.46%

In many ways, they truly are. I find myself holding my breath every time that pair is on the ice. They don’t communicate well as a pair, nor complement each other’s skill set. Gudas has played well for long stretches with various partners and I think he can succeed with a better partner. Manning however, is just not a good NHL defenseman.

I can understand leaving Sanheim in LHV but you owe it to the better players on this team to do what it takes to acquire a better defenseman that can anchor the second pairing and give this team a better chance of winning in the playoffs.

Are they a favorite or a top contender? No, they’re not. But they have a chance, and with one more good move, Hextall can give them a better chance.

There is no late 70s Habs, mid 80s Oilers or late 90s Red Wings in this league. No team is flawless, and no team isn’t one or 2 key injuries away from dropping down a notch or 2.

Why can’t we be the next 93 Habs or 06 Hurricanes? Make a move Ron, please.
- BiggE

i agree with all of this. he should at least try to make a move to upgrade that unit if it's not going to be sanheim.

In many ways, they truly are. I find myself holding my breath every time that pair is on the ice. They don’t communicate well as a pair, nor complement each other’s skill set. Gudas has played well for long stretches with various partners and I think he can succeed with a better partner. Manning however, is just not a good NHL defenseman.

I can understand leaving Sanheim in LHV but you owe it to the better players on this team to do what it takes to acquire a better defenseman that can anchor the second pairing and give this team a better chance of winning in the playoffs.

Are they a favorite or a top contender? No, they’re not. But they have a chance, and with one more good move, Hextall can give them a better chance.

There is no late 70s Habs, mid 80s Oilers or late 90s Red Wings in this league. No team is flawless, and no team isn’t one or 2 key injuries away from dropping down a notch or 2.

Why can’t we be the next 93 Habs or 06 Hurricanes? Make a move Ron, please.
- BiggE

Getting a more experienced 3rd pair defender for cheap is probably a more realistic target. Getting a true 2nd pair defenseman that can lead a pairing will be very costly and likely not widely available. For example, what is McDonagh going to cost? What other quality defenseman is going to be made available? Mike Green?
I see the suggestion that some have made such as Johnny Oduya far more feasible providing the cost is right.

You can't do that....*proceeds to do that thing*

Flyer just opened the doors to their new gym

I'm fine with him as the #7. Hak doesn't but whatever.

What I don't get though, is even if you do believe Manning is better than Sanheim right now, Sanheim is going to blow him away once he gets acclimated to this league.
- JFlyers00

I dont think anyone disagrees with that.

You can't just compare advanced stats between players and say it favors one over the other. Very rarely is it an apples to apples comparison. How about GF%? Manning's is 49.02% and Sanheim's is 38.46%
- MJL

it doesn't stand on its own but it can be considered, you mentioned the 1 that Manning had in his favor. Its just true, there wasnt a big difference, I cant point to why SanHeim was better and you cant to Manning. Coach trust and call is all there is.

Getting a more experienced 3rd pair defender for cheap is probably a more realistic target. Getting a true 2nd pair defenseman that can lead a pairing will be very costly and likely not widely available. For example, what is McDonagh going to cost? What other quality defenseman is going to be made available? Mike Green?
I see the suggestion that some have made such as Johnny Oduya far more feasible providing the cost is right.
- MJL

I am a fan of getting an Oduya type and putting Manning in the press box.

That's the problem, you want to use luck as reasoning for the defensive issues that Sanheim had rather than focus on the actual weaknesses in his game. It's just a convenient excuse to use to satisfy a bias rather than making a proper on ice evaluation of a player despite his talent level. I have no doubt that Sanheim is capable of playing in the NHL but first and foremost he has to be able to defend well at the NHL level. Despite popular opinion he was not better than Manning at that when he was with the Flyers which is why he was not playing and ultimately why he was sent down to get playing time. Maybe that has changed since now and then, time will tell.

The comparison you made was pretty poor because the positives that Sanheim brought to the ice did not come close to off setting the negatives which is clearly the case in the overwhelming positive for both Gostisbehere and Voracek.
- MJL

Things I am saying:
-Sanheim experienced some bad luck that caused the results (goals for/against) to look worse than the process (his actual play)
-Manning experienced some good luck that caused the results to look better than the process
-Mannings struggles have since turned into actual goals against

Things I am not saying:
-The results from Sanheim are based on luck
-Sanheim has no issues
-I want to have this conversation
-It hasn't already happened before

it doesn't stand on its own but it can be considered, you mentioned the 1 that Manning had in his favor. Its just true, there wasnt a big difference, I cant point to why SanHeim was better and you cant to Manning. Coach trust and call is all there is.
- wcorvette

I certainly can point to why Manning was better. Others have also done so in this thread. There has been far more than coach trust and call to go on.

I certainly can point to why Manning was better. Others have also done so in this thread. There has been far more than coach trust and call to go on.
- MJL

By all means please do? Better stick, better position, i will quick to point out where he has blown coverage or missed an assignment. Again the difference between the 2 are not much.

what I did say, Sanheim at the end needed to go down, get minutes and get his confidence back.

Things I am saying:
-Sanheim experienced some bad luck that caused the results (goals for/against) to look worse than the process (his actual play)


- YuenglingJagr

I disagree. Bad luck had little to do with it. Sanheim had issue both in coverage and in reading and anticipation of plays defensively as well as issues winning physical battles in the corners and around the net that others have alluded. I get what you're saying. I'm saying it's wrong.

-Manning experienced some good luck that caused the results to look better than the process


- YuenglingJagr

We have enough of a sample size to know what Manning is and has nothing to do with luck.

-Mannings struggles have since turned into actual goals against


- YuenglingJagr

Manning is a 3rd pair defenseman. Of course there are going to be goals against. There are also 4 other skaters and a defense partner out there with him.

shocking.

You can't do that....*proceeds to do that thing*
- VladDrag

It's like Ghost all over again. I love it. Let's bridge him because he is having such a bad year even though we can see his numbers and see how glaringly low they look. He might not be as good as we thought!