Your fourth line is supposed to be an alternate 3rd line in today's NHL anyways. I'd prefer to build a 4th line with players that are the fastest on the team but don't have the skill to be in your top 6 but do nothing but forecheck, forecheck, forecheck and try to hem the other team's line in their own zone and wear out the D, since that's how you win in the playoffs.
- DariusKnight

Yes, but those players usually have a life span of a fruit fly. They burn out quick. Hard to get them to have a full season, sometimes explains the rotating bodies on the 4th.

Jake makes 894 K
- VANTEL

By overpay, I mean in any of the following ways:

High draft picks used
Assets traded for
Cap hit/contract length


Jake is a 6th overall investment. A horrible one so far. This is about more than him though.

I think its because the 4th line is fluctuating one. Its a line that serves either as a transitional role for young players to gain experience, or one with a purpose to check/grind/energy.

IMO its hard to set guys in 4th line roles when they could be like Burrows/Hansen who happen to click with a skill player. You also wouldnt want to acquire a primarily 4th line guy like Matt Martin and prevent yourself a roster opportunity to find something in your top-6 if it is not first set already
- WhiteLie

When you dont have any decent 4th liners. That usually how you end up paying guys like Martin. Id rather have guys like Beagle, brodziak locked up for relatively cheap on term.

So its okay to have cheap useless guys that wont be around when a core is in place. after the core is in place then you want to go out and get decent 4th liners with picks or prospects. Also hope they gel in the last 20 games of the season.
- manvanfan

I'd suggest not using the 6th over all pick to select a core piece of the 4th line.

So its okay to have cheap useless guys that wont be around when a core is in place. after the core is in place then you want to go out and get decent 4th liners with picks or prospects. Also hope they gel in the last 20 games of the season.
- manvanfan

Yes


or you go out and some sign 1 or 2 of them during the summer.


or you stockpile enough draft picks/prospects that you just end up with a deep team just by building from within, like Tampa.



Or you trade away picks/prospects to bring in "foundational" role players first and then rebuild and then wonder why your prospect pool has glaring weaknesses later. The funnest option.

When you dont have any decent 4th liners. That usually how you end up paying guys like Martin. Id rather have guys like Beagle, brodziak locked up for relatively cheap on term.
- manvanfan

If you have a poop team, guys like Beagle and Brodziak end up on your 3rd line instead.

Your fourth line is supposed to be an alternate 3rd line in today's NHL anyways. I'd prefer to build a 4th line with players that are the fastest on the team but don't have the skill to be in your top 6 but do nothing but forecheck, forecheck, forecheck and try to hem the other team's line in their own zone and wear out the D, since that's how you win in the playoffs.
- DariusKnight

Agreed that is what the new 4th lines are these days, but as some of Vegas' speed guys have shown, some can play up in the lineup in the right circumstances. I was just noting that a 4th line is an opportunity line, rather than one you assemble to stay together (with Cup contenders being the usual exception)

By overpay, I mean in any of the following ways:

High draft picks used
Assets traded for
Cap hit/contract length


Jake is a 6th overall investment. A horrible one so far. This is about more than him though.
- Nucker101

You were okay with Gaunce last week . He is a first round pick and has done less.

I know there are twenty spots between the two but a first round pick is still a top pick. I think Jake will become better . Right now he is playing third line and his games are becoming more noticeable.

Yes


or you go out and some sign 1 or 2 of them during the summer.


or you stockpile enough draft picks/prospects that you just end up with a deep team just by building from within, like Tampa.



Or you trade away picks/prospects to bring in "foundational" role players first and then rebuild and then wonder why your prospect pool has glaring weaknesses later.
- Nucker101

Case in point, Ballard, Lapierre, Higgins, Paulssen, Roy from the previous era.

When you dont have any decent 4th liners. That usually how you end up paying guys like Martin. Id rather have guys like Beagle, brodziak locked up for relatively cheap on term.
- manvanfan

Its not clear to me, but if youre suggesting locking up players like those to multi-year deals to play 4th line minutes for a rebuilding club, then I strongly disagree. There was a lot of grief given to Dorsett (before his MVP season this year) taking a roster spot that Virtanen/Goldobin/McCann/Boeser could have used to get their feet wet at the NHL level. And while I support the notion of having some vets in the bottom 6, to me there shouldnt be many and none should have long term deals

Agreed that is what the new 4th lines are these days, but as some of Vegas' speed guys have shown, some can play up in the lineup in the right circumstances. I was just noting that a 4th line is an opportunity line, rather than one you assemble to stay together (with Cup contenders being the usual exception)
- WhiteLie

Well, to be fair, your 1st line is supposed to be your star/superstar forward(s) and a complimentary player, your 2nd line is supposed to be able to take over if something happens to the first line and produce at a comparable rate with the corresponding ice-time, your 3rd line is supposed to be able to produce as a 2nd line if need be, etc.

It all depends on your depth as well, most Cup contenders have players on their middle six that on a bad team might well be stars or superstars given the chance, as your Vegas example shows.

You were okay with Gaunce last week . He is a first round pick and has done less.

I know there are twenty spots between the two but a first round pick is still a top pick. I think Jake will become better . Right now he is playing third line and his games are becoming more noticeable.
- VANTEL

Like you said, 26th overall vs 6th is a huge difference.

Forwards drafted after Virtanen:
Nylander
Ehlers
Ritchie
Fiala
Perlini

All have more career points than Jake

Forwards drafted after Gaunce:
Samuelsson
Matteau
Pearson
Moroz
Collberg

Only Pearson(by far the best pick out of that bunch) has more career points than Gaunce.


Again, this is about more than Jake. The team is being built ass backwards. They're catering to 37 year old vets, spending assets/money on locking up foundational 3rd liners, foundational bottom pairing dmen instead of focusing on the draft and trying to build a strong future core. This team should have used way more draft picks since the 2014 draft.

Come on Jake, prove them wrong.
- bloatedmosquito

I think Jake is showing that he will be a good 3rd liner. he will be a 15g 30pt kind of guy that hits and has a good defensive game.

if JB could ship Louie E with Jake, that would be great. It will be to late the next couple years to get anything for Jake so a package would be a blessing. As for Tanev they missed payday return on this guy, he is a injury machine, worth a second rounder (if they could get that) or something like this,if Jim could pull a Garth move) Louie E, Tanev and Jake V, 3rd to Isles for 2nd, Ladd and Ho-sang (his days are done with this management group in nyi).

Like you said, 26th overall vs 6th is a huge difference.

Forwards drafted after Virtanen:
Nylander
Ehlers
Ritchie
Fiala
Perlini

All have more career points than Jake

Forwards drafted after Gaunce:
Samuelsson
Matteau
Pearson
Moroz
Collberg

Only Pearson has more career points than Gaunce.


Again, this is about more than Jake. The team is being built ass backwards. They're catering to 37 year old vets, spending assets/money on locking up foundational 3rd liners, foundational bottom pairing dmen instead of focusing on the draft and trying to build a strong future core
- Nucker101

This team has been built around those two for about ten years now. You are preaching to the choir.
Jake has been a disappointment so far for a 6OA but he is still growing . On the other hand Brock has been a top player drafted at 23 . Win some lose some.

Jake can be a meat head but again the team back then was soft as butter (and still is) His line mates have also been useless. So Nylander playing with Matthews and Ehlers with Scheifele is a little different than Jake and Chaput.

I think Jake has made a small step forward this year and hopefully will keep improving.

Pittsburgh is 8-1-1 in the last 10 games. Strong going into the playoffs as per usual.

Columbus is struggling this year. Basically the same team except for Gagner, Hartnell and Karlsson.

Panarinen instead of Saad. A few more injuries but that's not an excuse.

Pittsburgh is 8-1-1 in the last 10 games. Strong going into the playoffs as per usual.

Columbus is struggling this year. Basically the same team except for Gagner, Hartnell and Karlsson.

Panarinen instead of Saad. A few more injuries but that's not an excuse.
- manvanfan

Their PP is a mess. But they have a nice young core so they can live with a down year. That Panarin trade was a steal for them.

Interested to see how long Torts lasts there, especially if they struggle again next year.

Like you said, 26th overall vs 6th is a huge difference.

Forwards drafted after Virtanen:
Nylander
Ehlers
Ritchie
Fiala
Perlini

All have more career points than Jake

Forwards drafted after Gaunce:
Samuelsson
Matteau
Pearson
Moroz
Collberg

Only Pearson(by far the best pick out of that bunch) has more career points than Gaunce.


Again, this is about more than Jake. The team is being built ass backwards. They're catering to 37 year old vets, spending assets/money on locking up foundational 3rd liners, foundational bottom pairing dmen instead of focusing on the draft and trying to build a strong future core. This team should have used way more draft picks since the 2014 draft.
- Nucker101

We have been saying for awhile that this rebuild will not start until the twins are done. This is what happens when a franchise thinks it owes something to employee's. I work for a billion dollar company, and they often treat us like poop while telling how thankful we should be.

if JB could ship Louie E with Jake, that would be great. It will be to late the next couple years to get anything for Jake so a package would be a blessing. As for Tanev they missed payday return on this guy, he is a injury machine, worth a second rounder (if they could get that) or something like this,if Jim could pull a Garth move) Louie E, Tanev and Jake V, 3rd to Isles for 2nd, Ladd and Ho-sang (his days are done with this management group in nyi).
- Leo_Union

good one troll, now (frank) off.

This team has been built around those two for about ten years now. You are preaching to the choir.
Jake has been a disappointment so far for a 6OA but he is still growing . On the other hand Brock has been a top player drafted at 23 . Win some lose some.

Jake can be a meat head but again the team back then was soft as butter (and still is) His line mates have also been useless. So Nylander playing with Matthews and Ehlers with Scheifele is a little different than Jake and Chaput.

I think Jake has made a small step forward this year and hopefully will keep improving.
- VANTEL

I think Jake will be an excellent line-mate for EP when he hits the league. He may lack a bit n hockey sense, but his shot, speed, and physicality will be a good asset to EP.
Would allo us to keep Bo/Brock together as well.

Its not clear to me, but if youre suggesting locking up players like those to multi-year deals to play 4th line minutes for a rebuilding club, then I strongly disagree. There was a lot of grief given to Dorsett (before his MVP season this year) taking a roster spot that Virtanen/Goldobin/McCann/Boeser could have used to get their feet wet at the NHL level. And while I support the notion of having some vets in the bottom 6, to me there shouldnt be many and none should have long term deals
- WhiteLie

I guess you are only allowed to build parts of a team one at a time. No wonder rebuilds take so long.

We have been saying for awhile that this rebuild will not start until the twins are done. This is what happens when a franchise thinks it owes something to employee's. I work for a billion dollar company, and they often treat us like poop while telling how thankful we should be.
- Retinalz

I just find it funny that people are pissed at the Sedins for this, if your bosses want to cater to you then you'd be stupid to not go along with it.

It's especially funny seeing the same fans who desperately want the Sedins gone, also defend 1 or both of Linden and Benning.

I guess you are only allowed to build parts of a team one at a time. No wonder rebuilds take so long.
- manvanfan

lol

I just find it funny that people are pissed at the Sedins for this, if your bosses want to cater to you then you'd be stupid to not go along with it.

It's especially funny seeing the same fans who desperately want the Sedins gone, also defend 1 or both of Linden and Benning.
- Nucker101

I know I don't blame the Sedins for wanting anything I blame both Benning and Linden

Their PP is a mess. But they have a nice young core so they can live with a down year. That Panarin trade was a steal for them.

Interested to see how long Torts lasts there, especially if they struggle again next year.
- Nucker101

Took steps backwards. You would think once you built your new "core" that you would add to it. Instead they gave the spots to a bunch of younger inexperienced kids and aren't doing very well.