murray is out cuz of personal reasons. probably not a trade
- martox

Pulled a hammy in the sand on Saint Bart's!

Needed some extra time to get back to Pittsburgh!

https://public.tableau.com/profile/christopher.turtoro#!/vizhome/All-3-ZoneProfilesBETA/PlayerComparisons
- j.boyd919

Thanks!

Most of these are smaller sample size because all of the data is tracked and recorded, they aren't mining stats through binned NHL data, they're actually watching game records and marking everything down second by second.
- j.boyd919

Gotchya...so am I correct to assume then that this person, or persons, only started doing this 15 to 20 games ago for all players? Any idea if the games tracked are consecutive or are they here and there?

Don't trade Jarry, Don't trade Jarry!!! Or Murray!!!!
- so_buzz11

I think they're both safe for now. GMJR likes having 2 goalies, 3 if he can find a good one to bury in the minors.

Gotchya...so am I correct to assume then that this person, or persons, only started doing this 15 to 20 games ago for all players? Any idea if the games tracked are consecutive or are they here and there?
- MattStrat

I shot Corey (the guy who heads all the tracking) a question on twitter. I'm not exactly sure his process, I know he's posted it a few times on twitter at the beginning of the season. I *think* he recruits some twitter followers to watch games and record data for him too, I'm not sure though. I'll let you know if he answers.

Edit:


Josh
@boyd919
4m4 minutes ago

I have a question about the games tracked on these... are these games (Gudas for example) 25 consecutive games from the beginning of the season? last 25 games? Random games here and there? Thanks!

CJ Turtoro‏ @CJTDevil
Replying to @boyd919 @ShutdownLine

It's a sample. I use the same DB for both of my Tableau vizzes and this you can browse the list of recorded games here.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/christopher.turtoro#!/vizhome/ZoneTransitionsper60/GameIDs …


If you go to that link, you can look at the game ID's and see what games were tracked.

WTF is letang going to the all star game?? He doesnt get the call in years hes killing it.... but lers give him a call coming off NECK surgery playing over 20mins a night. Conspiracy!

The new season of black mirror is kind of poop, black museum , USS, n arangel r decent but the season is itself is a letdown

Why is Letang going to AS game, one example of why I am not watching. Leturnover does not belong this year and I am sure he is embarrassed by the selection.

Why is Letang going to AS game, one example of why I am not watching. Leturnover does not belong this year and I am sure he is embarrassed by the selection.
- joegreif17

doubtful.

Why is Letang going to AS game, one example of why I am not watching. Leturnover does not belong this year and I am sure he is embarrassed by the selection.
- joegreif17

Trust me, absolutely nobody cares you won't be watching. Nobody.

This post is so i can quote.

Carry over:


Not being good at zone entries doesn't make you bad on its own, but generating zone entries is always superior to dump and chase. When you carry the puck into the zone, you are ensuring an offensive possession. When you dump it in, you're losing the puck, which greatly diminishes the chance of an offensive possession. Add in that most quality chances in the NHL come in off the rush, and you see why zone entries are so important.

And, no, dumping it in and then retrieving the puck does not count as a controlled zone entry, so that does not show up on the stat.

Stretch passes would be zone exits in almost every circumstance.

I don't know why you think these graphs suggest all players should be doing the same thing. These graphs show who's good and who's bad at zone exits and entries. If you fundamentally believe that all D should be good at generating zone exits and all forwards should be good at generating zone entries because high and hard off the glass and dump ins are essentially turn overs (which, I mean, isn't a terrible philosophy), then yeah I guess these graphs could be showing you good and bad players in black in white, but as always it depends what context you want to add as the data's interpreter.
- Victoro311

There's plenty to discuss if you want to break this down - which I won't.

But the implications of the charts are players being good & bad at these certain facets of hockey - be like Boyd at Reaves & Knuckles chart, which is saying they are poop - which in fact if you look at Reaves, his shooting is good. But what are they supposed to be doing on the ice? The same comparisons are being made with top line players so basically saying everyone is being compared equally to the same things hence my comment about every player playing the exact same way.

There is no consistency in the charts for players strengths or weaknesses or in fact how certain players play the game. How can a shift function if all 5 players want the puck? As you said above it's mixing & matching possession players with other types of players - but that's not shown on the charts & you can all you want.

Bonino is horrible on these charts, & Lars Eller is Sid Crosby elite (even better you could argue based on the charts ), so if you for 1 then you must for all shouldn't you? Lars Eller is better than Backstrom - is that a true statement?

I don't mind it only being recent & small sample size as that tells us how they are going now if you were to base 'anything' from the data.

Dump & chase won the Kings 2 cups with heavy forechecking. So these charts do what for those 2 seasons where the champion used alternate style of play & won?

Edit: Your comment about coming off the rush as a zone entry is again another question, as that would indicate an easier transition after 'usually' an error from the opposing team, rather than a 5v5 competition through the zones. Is that shown on the charts?

Continued...

Hornqvist is a good example. Not surprised he doesn't do well in zone entries and exits, never been a particular strength and wouldn't be if he had more than 14 games tracked. Shot generation I'm surprised isn't higher as that's been a strength.

But you look at another model like Dom Luszczyszyn's and Hornqvist has the team's 4th best game score and 3rd best game score verses average, both at top line (in the best 93 players in the league) rates.

Neither model paints the full picture. One has him as a 1st line talent and another as a near useless player. Pretty well explains the diverging opinions on him because he has such clearly divided strengths and weaknesses that it depends what you value.
- Tojo.

That's 1 of the things with analytics. Depending on what data you look at & How you interpret the data you can have a result that contradicts other results. So which 1 do you use? I haven't seen any data formulated that gives an overall result that considers a wider opinion of a player - firstly anything that has Corsi as data can't be used. There are so many different forms of data that can be used (mostly by having to watch & manually take down the data in microstats), that someone bringing up data that specifies a generic facet - ie, zone exits & entries that some players are good & bad at that doesn't make them good or bad players, or even shooting for that matter, cannot be correct as it doesn't show everything that player can do. Playing 20 Minutes a game against playing 4 minutes a night is again counter productive in a result for many reasons.

Then as you say 1 stat says 1 thing, another says another.

There's plenty to discuss if you want to break this down - which I won't.

But the implications of the charts are players being good & bad at these certain facets of hockey - be like Boyd at Reaves & Knuckles chart, which is saying they are poop - which in fact if you look at Reaves, his shooting is good. But what are they supposed to be doing on the ice? The same comparisons are being made with top line players so basically saying everyone is being compared equally to the same things hence my comment about every player playing the exact same way.

There is no consistency in the charts for players strengths or weaknesses or in fact how certain players play the game. How can a shift function if all 5 players want the puck? As you said above it's mixing & matching possession players with other types of players - but that's not shown on the charts & you can all you want.

Bonino is horrible on these charts, & Lars Eller is Sid Crosby elite (even better you could argue based on the charts ), so if you for 1 then you must for all shouldn't you? Lars Eller is better than Backstrom - is that a true statement?

I don't mind it only being recent & small sample size as that tells us how they are going now if you were to base 'anything' from the data.

Dump & chase won the Kings 2 cups with heavy forechecking. So these charts do what for those 2 seasons where the champion used alternate style of play & won?
- Aussiepenguin

Ummm... I think you’re looking for a fight when there’s not one? Like I said, this is a very specific stat that only measures frequency and success percentage of zone exits and entries. No one is claiming that players that are bad at this aspect of the game are always bad, and I don’t see how the charts explicitly claim it either.

And yeah the Kings were really (frank)ing good at dump and chase. Dump and chase is a valid way of entering the zone and establishing possession, it’s just less efficient than controlled zone entries. You can certainly win that way, but your boys need to be really (frank)ing good at retrieving the puck, which the Kings were.

So yeah, Kings players probably would have scored low on this specific stat at least in the frequency part, but they were also some of the best possession teams of all time.

Different ways to skin a cat, but me personally I believe an offense is at its most efficient when the vast majority of your guys excel at facilitating controlled exits and entries, like we did in 2016. I think that’s the best model for sustained success.

Ummm... I think you’re looking for a fight when there’s not one? Like I said, this is a very specific stat that only measures frequency and success percentage of zone exits and entries. No one is claiming that players that are bad at this aspect of the game are always bad, and I don’t see how the charts explicitly claim it either.

And yeah the Kings were really (frank)ing good at dump and chase. Dump and chase is a valid way of entering the zone and establishing possession, it’s just less efficient than controlled zone entries. You can certainly win that way, but your boys need to be really (frank)ing good at retrieving the puck, which the Kings were.

So yeah, Kings players probably would have scored low on this specific stat at least in the frequency part, but they were also some of the best possession teams of all time.

Different ways to skin a cat, but me personally I believe an offense is at its most efficient when the vast majority of your guys excel at facilitating controlled exits and entries, like we did in 2016. I think that’s the best model for sustained success.
- Victoro311

Not looking for a fight. I just don't like it when a new form of data comes out & people start saying he's good he's bad based on the new chart which happened in the last thread. And Lars Eller isn't better than Backstrom!

Not looking for a fight. I just don't like it when a new form of data comes out & people start saying he's good he's bad based on the new chart which happened in the last thread. And Lars Eller isn't better than Backstrom!
- Aussiepenguin

I don’t think anyone did that was any seriousness. Just making observations at how good or bad their specific charts looked.

It was useful for the Hagelin debate, though, because this was one of the aspects the guy saying Hagelin is still playing well was claiming Hags supported in. Hags hasn’t been helping with zone entries for a while.

I don’t think anyone did that was any seriousness. Just making observations at how good or bad their specific charts looked.

It was useful for the Hagelin debate, though, because this was one of the aspects the guy saying Hagelin is still playing well was claiming Hags supported in. Hags hasn’t been helping with zone entries for a while.
- Victoro311

I think Shags is more a dump & chase guy with solid forechecking which I really think is important to have when he (or someone) is doing it well. Exit zone possession is important, but if you are getting a lot of opportunity off rushes (which are different than a standard exit), then those stats aren't accurate. If you support a player that will carry the puck will that show up on the charts?

There's just so many variables when you try & identify strengths & weaknesses that these types of charts actually create more questions than answers unless you take them on face value!

See, this is where Coles experience could come in & help the Canes young inexperienced D! 3 to go & they give up a goal!

Edit: Wow. Cole would have blocked that with his beard!

See, this is where Coles experience could come in & help the Canes young inexperienced D! 3 to go & they give up a goal!

Edit: Wow. Cole would have blocked that with his beard!
- Aussiepenguin

Got a little help tonight with the Carolina and Jackets going down.

Got a little help tonight with the Carolina and Jackets going down.
- madmike71

Yuuuuge. I still think the Canes can make it, if they don't they will look back on that game & be very disappointed.

A number of people have been saying for a couple weeks now that we should stand pat because things haven’t been going our way (much of which is self inflicted). I reminded that I thought this layoff would be huge and I think it’s been pretty much as good as could’ve been expected. Hopefully we look rejuvenated and a few wins puts us closer to where we’d hope to be. Sooooo let’s start talking trades! Name your player you want and what you’d give up to snag him. My big concern is a center to get Guentzel back on the wing. I like the idea of Letestu, I’m all for a Girgensons though. If they toss in a pick I’d give them Cole. If they toss in a late pick I’ll also give them Hagelin (assuming he has limited or negative trade value)

I think Shags is more a dump & chase guy with solid forechecking which I really think is important to have. Exit zone possession is important, but if you are getting a lot of opportunity off rushes (which are different than a standard exit), then those stats aren't accurate. If you support a player that will carry the puck will that show up on the charts?

There's just so many variables when you try & identify strengths & weaknesses that these types of charts actually create more questions than answers unless you take them on face value!
- Aussiepenguin

no.

no.
- j.boyd919

Why?

Looking at these charts, clearly zone exits are a problem for the Pens.

Also, to all those who are posting about Letang being in the Allstar game why are you upset? It's the NHL. Enough said. Also, we don't give a f*ck.

I think Shags is more a dump & chase guy with solid forechecking which I really think is important to have when he (or someone) is doing it well. Exit zone possession is important, but if you are getting a lot of opportunity off rushes (which are different than a standard exit), then those stats aren't accurate. If you support a player that will carry the puck will that show up on the charts?

There's just so many variables when you try & identify strengths & weaknesses that these types of charts actually create more questions than answers unless you take them on face value!
- Aussiepenguin

Supporting a player carrying the puck? Does this mean getting to open areas to score goals? Hags doesn't do that either. Look what it comes down to is hags is way overpaid and needs to go.

So, going to the game today. I go a couple times a year and have only seen them lose to the Blues once. They're winning it today.