This Leddy discussion continues even though it has been dissected countless times. Just like the Bowman left the team in bad shape after three Cups. Some fans can't see all the facts or are weighed down by only one part of the outcome now a few years past the trade and after winning three Cups.

Most GM's do not make 100% good moves. Bowman has done both well and blown some transactions. Pokka was considered a good prospect at the time. Not just by Bowman, but where he rated for the Entry Draft. Bowman painted himself into a corner and Leddy was the price insofar as to retain the remainder if the roster. So, trade did not work out but Bowman is not totally to blame. He had salary cap problems not all on him (A complete excellent explanation by St Louis Braves entry last blog). He kept others here and the core still intact won two more Cups.

Understand all of that. Ramifications.

As for you knocking the state of the current roster, if you took a poll most in this board would agree we did not come out too bad nowadays after paying the price to win three Cups. No one else has won three Cups in six years for a couple decades, correct! Again Bowman could have done better. But with late draft picks each round he gambled for skill and it turns out he got skill + soft player.

Meanwhile those who think Tallon was so great, he drafted round one Babchuck, a Russian foreward who is a bust, and Skille. Babchuk = upchuck and Skille name is an oxymoron. How much different would trades and salary cap look if just one of those choices was descent.

You have to look at the entire picture and ramifications. Yes Bowman did not leave a great team after three Cups and Leddy loss was an error in judgment. Still, your expectation for this year is too high and your blame is not logicly sound. Opportunity cost to win and the price of diminshing returns my friend.
- jhawk59

Having to lose Johns to dump Sharp was another one that was very problematic.

Losing Danault for pretty much nothing was bad deal.

Anyone who watched him play could see that Ladd was dunzo.

Having to package TT with Bickell and not giving him the time to develop. Baaaad.

Moving Kooga with no comparable player to slot into one of the bottom two center lines. Baaaaad.

The Seabrook extension.

Rundblad Twice. Jurco.

The Oduya trade worked out but not until the second year. Everyone was ready to run him out of town the first few months.

Panik is probably fine for what he does and they got him for basically free so w\e.

The Saad trade both times worked out OK IMO. To get Leddy was a steal.

There are quite a few disasters up in there.

While I think they have done an excellent job evaluating talent (forward wise anyway) and drafting well there. They haven't done well with defensive prospects lately AND their management of the talent they have developed in relationship to the salary cap has been abhorrent.

IMO too many cooks in the front office kitchen making decisions and trying to appease the fan base rather than keep the team winning with ruthless behavior. Cutting Hammer loose was too little too late.

Why are you worried about trading these guys? I say trade them now while their value is high. They won't amount to much in the NHL so if Stan can turn them into a depth center who can win faceoffs then I say go for it.
- DarthKane

Was gonna reply and then realized who made the comment. You should be permanently in red font, change it when you are serious.

Why are you worried about trading these guys? I say trade them now while their value is high. They won't amount to much in the NHL so if Stan can turn them into a depth center who can win faceoffs then I say go for it.
- DarthKane

Debrincat will be a perennial 30 goal \ year player minimum. He has the speed, vision and hands to put up points like St Louis.

Having to lose Johns to dump Sharp was another one that was very problematic.

Losing Danault for pretty much nothing was bad deal.

Anyone who watched him play could see that Ladd was dunzo.

Having to package TT with Bickell and not giving him the time to develop. Baaaad.

Moving Kooga with no comparable player to slot into one of the bottom two center lines. Baaaaad.

The Seabrook extension.

Rundblad Twice. Jurco.

The Oduya trade worked out but not until the second year. Everyone was ready to run him out of town the first few months.

Panik is probably fine for what he does and they got him for basically free so we.

The Saad trade both times worked out OK IMO. To get Leddy was a steal.

There are quite a few disasters up in there.

While I think they have done an excellent job evaluating talent (forward wise anyway) and drafting well there. They haven't done well with defensive prospects lately AND their management of the talent they have developed in relationship to the salary cap has been abhorrent.

IMO too many cooks in the front office kitchen making decisions and trying to appease the fan base rather than keep the team winning with ruthless behavior. Cutting Hammer loose was too little too late.
- fattybeef

Some of it is just the cost of doing business.

Trades were made either because they were in "win now" mode, or made for Cap relief.
- Danault wasn't going to make an impact in the playoffs, Bowman gambled on Weise and Fleischman. If they had won, Bowmans a genius.......they didn't

- Ladd was not done, and still isn't. He is still a serviceable player in the NHL, again, if they win the Cup Bowmans a genius.....they didn't
- there were underlying issues with the TT deal, not just the need to dump Bickell.
- Johns was the cost for moving Sharps big cap hit, the return of Daley and Garbutt would have been OK if Daley had been utilized. Q's fault? Scouting fault? Daley proved with PIT he could be a useful piece (though not very good defensively)

It's easy to sit back years later with hindsight and criticize, the fact is there are plenty of trades that Bowman has "won"

Some of it is just the cost of doing business.

Trades were made either because they were in "win now" mode, or made for Cap relief.
- Danault wasn't going to make an impact in the playoffs, Bowman gambled on Weise and Fleischman. If they had won, Bowmans a genius.......they didn't

- Ladd was not done, and still isn't. He is still a serviceable player in the NHL, again, if they win the Cup Bowmans a genius.....they didn't
- there were underlying issues with the TT deal, not just the need to dump Bickell.
- Johns was the cost for moving Sharps big cap hit, the return of Daley and Garbutt would have been OK if Daley had been utilized. Q's fault? Scouting fault? Daley proved with PIT he could be a useful piece (though not very good defensively)

It's easy to sit back years later with hindsight and criticize, the fact is there are plenty of trades that Bowman has "won"
- TheTrob

Ladd wasn't close to done. He scored 12 points in 19 games after the trade. The team just couldn't score against STL in the playoffs.

Hey Darth, I fully expect Bowman to either:
A) Do nothing at all come trade deadline time, stick with his "We like our team" mantra, the Hawks are out in round 1 of the playoffs (if they even make it), and then it's between him and Q for who gets the can.
OR
B). Make a very insignificant trade, like Kempny for (insert worthless sub-4 D-Man's name here), the Hawks are out in round 1 of the playoffs (if they even make it), and then it's between him and Q for who gets the can.
Bowman's a p***y, let's just call a spade a spade
- Murph76

Your "insignificant" trade of Kempney just might blow up in their faces once again.
He's a young big body, fast, and nasty dman that currently makes pinching mistakes, but so do the other dmen on this team. Let's just keep playing Franson and Seabrook all these minutes as the team continues to fall deeper in the conference. Many of us have called for INCREASED ice time for Kempney to see what we have here, but you know Q, it's all about the veterans. See M Rosival !!

Kempney has NO worth right now and trading him brings back literally nothing.
It's time for both Seabrook and Franson to alternate time off in the presser and allow Kempney to show what he's got for an extended period of time..... not 5 games. Heck Forsling was disastrous many time this year and look how he's turning himself into a top dman. I'll place this Kempney blame right at the doorstep of our HOF coach once again who didn't like the play of Nick Leddy, Trevor Daley, Steven Johns, etc, etc, etc !!

If we're going to keep losing to quality teams with the same guys, that's just plain insane and trading guys like Kempney without ever seeing what he has to offer show how inept our management is.

So let's keep giving all the minutes to guys like Patrick Sharp, Brent Seabrook, and Cody Franson........... not to mention the big dollar elephant in the room.

Ladies and Gentlemen, your Washington Capitals for tonight:

Ovechkin-Backstrom-Wilson
Vrana-Kuznetsov-Chiasson
Connolly-Eller-Boyd
Stephenson-Beagle-DSP

Orlov-Niskanen
Orpik-Carlson
Djoos-Bowey
- Justin Lowe

Bowey was A guy I would have taken over Carl dahlstrom back 4 years ago. I know some picks don't pan out but that was one (there have been others) that really made you scratch your head. But I guess its tough, Blackhawks had Arvidson (Nashville) in for a prospect camp when he was still draft eligible but a over ager and got taken at 112 in 2014, the hawks after having 4 days to watch him opted for Icapolli, Starett in the 3rd round and Olofsson in the 4th.

Justin, I agree with your opinion about Bouma on 3rd line. Bouma has been a good player for the 4th line, but we know he's not on that line for his hands and puck handling. Although, a good physical player, who also kills penalties and blocks shots, Bouma handles the puck like a hand gernade. Hayden would have been better on 3rd I thought that Q might put Hartman and Panik with maybe Schmaltz, since Panik and Schmaltz played last year on Toews line and have some chemistry together. Move Debrinkat up to play with Toews and Hartman. Brinky has had some chemistry with Toews, working on the power play together. 4th line: Sharp-Wingels-Bouma That would leave Hayden to play with Kane and Arty. We will have to wait and see tonight

Justin, I agree with your opinion about Bouma on 3rd line. Bouma has been a good player for the 4th line, but we know he's not on that line for his hands and puck handling. Although, a good physical player, who also kills penalties and blocks shots, Bouma handles the puck like a hand gernade. Hayden would have been better on 3rd I thought that Q might put Hartman and Panik with maybe Schmaltz, since Panik and Schmaltz played last year on Toews line and have some chemistry together. Move Debrinkat up to play with Toews and Hartman. Brinky has had some chemistry with Toews, working on the power play together. 4th line: Sharp-Wingels-Bouma That would leave Hayden to play with Kane and Arty. We will have to wait and see tonight
- chuckdahammer

These will be the lines starting the 2nd period tonight.

Some of it is just the cost of doing business.

Trades were made either because they were in "win now" mode, or made for Cap relief.
- Danault wasn't going to make an impact in the playoffs, Bowman gambled on Weise and Fleischman. If they had won, Bowmans a genius.......they didn't

- Ladd was not done, and still isn't. He is still a serviceable player in the NHL, again, if they win the Cup Bowmans a genius.....they didn't
- there were underlying issues with the TT deal, not just the need to dump Bickell.
- Johns was the cost for moving Sharps big cap hit, the return of Daley and Garbutt would have been OK if Daley had been utilized. Q's fault? Scouting fault? Daley proved with PIT he could be a useful piece (though not very good defensively)

It's easy to sit back years later with hindsight and criticize, the fact is there are plenty of trades that Bowman has "won"
- TheTrob

How do you figure? He was locked in as the Hawks' 3C during their best run of that season (9 game win streak I believe). Danault immediately stepped in and played Top 6 Center for Montreal after that trade. It is the job of a GM to have the foresight and talent analysis of prospects to NOT trade them away for scraps in Weise and Fleischmann (Who Bergeron signed as a Professional Tryout that year) or Ville freakin Pokka. There is no way to rationalize the Danault trade or the return on the Leddy trade when both of those season the biggest weakness on the team was depth at Center and Defense.

I think that the people who critique Bowman on this site acknowledge his good moves...Frolik, acquiring Leddy, Panik, Panarin, Forsling, Rutta, drafting Saad, drafting Shaw and making the trade that got him Debrincat, ect. However, when you hand out those massive contracts, which he had to do for Toews + Kane (not Seabrook), you are walking a very fine line between contender and pretender. The compounding effect of bleeding impact NHL talent like Leddy, Danault, and Tuevo and overpaying players for past performance (with No Trade Clauses) has led the Hawks to their current state. He needs to remedy the situation as the expectations for this team have been elevated both from his Boss (McDonagh) and the Fan Base.

These will be the lines starting the 2nd period tonight.
- Rota's Rooter

How can Hartman play with both Toews and Cat, and with Schmaltz and Panik?

Happy Groundhog Day, everybody!

Leddy was traded because Oduya had a broken foot and one year remaining on his contract. It took a long time for his foot to fully heal, remember. The silver lining is that Oduya's foot did heal, and the Hawks won in 2015 due in part to the top 4 D-men they put on the ice. And even if Leddy stayed, could they have afforded him on his next contract? And what value were we supposed to get with no leverage whatsoever?

Daley didn't work out in the Sharp trade. It also cost Oduya, and Johns. We'll never know what other options Bowman had. And it was made worse when Daley asked to be dealt. Could Bowman have done better than Scuderi? At this point, it's pretty obvious that it's hard to get value when there are few takes out there. And the Oduya loss smarted even more because of the Rundblad folly.

The trades at the 2016 deadline, I was a bit apprehensive at the time. They gave up a lot for some expiring contracts. Ladd, Wiese, and Fleischmann. Draft picks and Danault going the other way, and I forget what else. The success of the 2015 deadline trades might have led to a feeling of can't be wrong. And no, I will not say that Timonen was a bad deal. He was injured early on here, and I don't think he completely recovered. He was invaluable for Teuvo, and I think he was a good locker room guy. Had Timonen been 100%, I think he helps a lot on the third pair. Sometimes the dice are hot, sometimes not. But I think Stanley should have known better with the 2016 deals, all the same.

Bickell. This was a bad beat for Bowman. Maybe he could have offered him less during the regular season, I don't know that. He was the only big forward they had, so that probably meant they had to pay up if they wanted to keep him. I know that he had a breakthrough in 2013, then suffered an injury, and I don't know when the MS started affecting him. He also earned a spot on the Cup in 2015 with his work against Anaheim.

Bickell Part 2. Yes, shedding his contract meant losing Teuvo. Teuvo needed to have some Finn teammates. He was obviously homesick. I don't think he was going to be a fit here, and I wouldn't be surprised if they let him go at season end, probably by trading him for picks before the RFA expired. The Hawks did get draft picks that were about commensurate with the compensation they would get for losing him, iirc.

I will say that Stanley could have had more success in the drafts. Sure, some successes, but quite a few misses. Not a lot of home grown D-men have had NHL careers here.

How can Hartman play with both Toews and Cat, and with Schmaltz and Panik?
- JRoenick97

Double shifts. Just like when Kane has to double shift when Panik is running around out of control and Q nails his a$$ to the bench.

Interesting thread on Twitter regarding the impact (causation?) that the 2010 Olympics hockey loss had on the current Russian doping scandal:

https://twitter.com/Slava...status/938488550789648386

Yup. Long term we should have kept Phil Esposito and Ken Hodge too.
- Rota's Rooter

The trade of Espo (HOF), Hodge (multiple All Star) and Fred Stanfield (solid third liner) to the Bruins for Pit Martin and Gilles Marotte was probably the Hawks' worst all-time trade, especially what they gave up. When judging Stanbo, just be thankful that Tommy Ivan isn't the GM today.

The trade of Espo (HOF), Hodge (multiple All Star) and Fred Stanfield (solid third liner) to the Bruins for Pit Martin and Gilles Marotte was probably the Hawks' worst all-time trade, especially what they gave up. When judging Stanbo, just be thankful that Tommy Ivan isn't there GM today.
- BMWChiFan

Bad trades happen. too many bad trades - well that's a job killer

Happy Groundhog Day, everybody!

Leddy was traded because Oduya had a broken foot and one year remaining on his contract. It took a long time for his foot to fully heal, remember. The silver lining is that Oduya's foot did heal, and the Hawks won in 2015 due in part to the top 4 D-men they put on the ice. And even if Leddy stayed, could they have afforded him on his next contract? And what value were we supposed to get with no leverage whatsoever?

Daley didn't work out in the Sharp trade. It also cost Oduya, and Johns. We'll never know what other options Bowman had. And it was made worse when Daley asked to be dealt. Could Bowman have done better than Scuderi? At this point, it's pretty obvious that it's hard to get value when there are few takes out there. And the Oduya loss smarted even more because of the Rundblad folly.

The trades at the 2016 deadline, I was a bit apprehensive at the time. They gave up a lot for some expiring contracts. Ladd, Wiese, and Fleischmann. Draft picks and Danault going the other way, and I forget what else. The success of the 2015 deadline trades might have led to a feeling of can't be wrong. And no, I will not say that Timonen was a bad deal. He was injured early on here, and I don't think he completely recovered. He was invaluable for Teuvo, and I think he was a good locker room guy. Had Timonen been 100%, I think he helps a lot on the third pair. Sometimes the dice are hot, sometimes not. But I think Stanley should have known better with the 2016 deals, all the same.

Bickell. This was a bad beat for Bowman. Maybe he could have offered him less during the regular season, I don't know that. He was the only big forward they had, so that probably meant they had to pay up if they wanted to keep him. I know that he had a breakthrough in 2013, then suffered an injury, and I don't know when the MS started affecting him. He also earned a spot on the Cup in 2015 with his work against Anaheim.

Bickell Part 2. Yes, shedding his contract meant losing Teuvo. Teuvo needed to have some Finn teammates. He was obviously homesick. I don't think he was going to be a fit here, and I wouldn't be surprised if they let him go at season end, probably by trading him for picks before the RFA expired. The Hawks did get draft picks that were about commensurate with the compensation they would get for losing him, iirc.

I will say that Stanley could have had more success in the drafts. Sure, some successes, but quite a few misses. Not a lot of home grown D-men have had NHL careers here.
- 333inthe3rd

Damn, THAT should have been my blog title today.


Great post 333.

Personally, I don't think those line changes (yet again) are going to amount to anything really.

I also doubt there is a silver bullet type trade out there that magically changes anything.

Leddy? Well you can blame Bowman, but some of that also had to do with how Q played him to diminish his trade value as well. . . sorta like, probably Kempny (not saying the same type of player of ability - but I mean you know - you stick a guy on the third pairing and restrict ice time, or you pressbox a guy, it is funny that other GM's use that sorta thing to better their trading position) -so you get what you get.

Frankly, the management of the team is dysfunctional - Q doesn't play guys traded for ... which begs the question of why they were traded for in the first place ... which isn't to say it shouldn't happen - but I mean there has been little to no value in a lot of trades for a lot of years now -in fact Vermette nearly because one of these... stupid pretty much doesn't begin to cover it.

DeBrincat-Anisimov-Kane
Saad-Schmaltz-Hartman
Hinostroza-Toews-Panik
Bouma-Wingles-Hayden
(Sharp)

These should be our forward lines

DeBrincat-Anisimov-Kane
Saad-Schmaltz-Hartman
Hinostroza-Toews-Panik
Bouma-Wingles-Hayden
(Sharp)

These should be our forward lines
- SimpleJack

I'm a fan of this

I'm a fan of this
- EnzoD

Why not give it a shot, right?

I think its time to give Hinostroza a look, he's been great for Rockford and is more than NHL ready IMO. What is already a pretty fast group of forwards will become even faster.

DeBrincat-Anisimov-Kane
Saad-Schmaltz-Hartman
Hinostroza-Toews-Panik
Bouma-Wingles-Hayden
(Sharp)

These should be our forward lines
- SimpleJack

We already have a world-class shut down 3C who can win over 50% of draws

We already have a world-class shut down 3C who can win over 50% of draws
- Slofire94

Exactly!

(not directed at you)

The reality is that Stan has made some good moves and bad moves, but show me a GM who hasn't done the same. Stan is the GM so he shoulders the credit and the blame for the moves the team makes. The only issue I have is that several people here tend to focus on Stan's poor moves and judge him by those standards. It's totally fair to judge Stan, but at least look at his full body of work rather than whiling that Leddy was dealt or $10.5 million is too much for Toews.
- DarthKane

Full body of work is having Duncan Keith in his prime and Patrick Kane, who is probably top 5 in the league with the puck on his blade.

Also, getting super lucky with prospects hitting at the right time \ veterans having remarkable career years and the right veterans like Sharp and Hossa and even Zeus filling in their roles to perfection.

2010 was certainly Tallon + the last regime.
2013 was a shortened season that the Hawks were able to rampage through with little wear on their veterans.
2015 was getting lucky with some LTIR money and being able to round out the roster at the TDL. And especially Duncan Keith willing the team to win and playing the best hockey of his life.

Bowman has taken a few GMs to the cleaners but the amount of players he has had to shed for little or no return and the way he has managed the Cap has been pretty egregious. Like I said in my other post, it looks like there are too many cooks in the kitchen and they have been too sentimental with fan favorites and not ruthless enough moving guys before their usefulness dwindles.

Full body of work is having Duncan Keith in his prime and Patrick Kane, who is probably top 5 in the league with the puck on his blade.

Also, getting super lucky with prospects hitting at the right time \ veterans having remarkable career years and the right veterans like Sharp and Hossa and even Zeus filling in their roles to perfection.

2010 was certainly Tallon + the last regime.
2013 was a shortened season that the Hawks were able to rampage through with little wear on their veterans.
2015 was getting lucky with some LTIR money and being able to round out the roster at the TDL. And especially Duncan Keith willing the team to win and playing the best hockey of his life.

Bowman has taken a few GMs to the cleaners but the amount of players he has had to shed for little or no return and the way he has managed the Cap has been pretty egregious. Like I said in my other post, it looks like there are too many cooks in the kitchen and they have been too sentimental with fan favorites and not ruthless enough moving guys before their usefulness dwindles.
- fattybeef

"With aging, expensive core Blackhawks’ window is closing fast"

https://www.yahoo.com/spo...wks-window-202209156.html