Hawks / Pens Sunday. Me and older son will be there. Older son is wearing a Harty Havlat jersey. I hope my son doesn't sprain his toe on the way into the rink. - kwolf68
Crow's goal was terrible. But he has made so few of those it really doesn't matter, the dude can't be perfect. Though his last two games have not been sparkling. I hope he brings it Saturday night. - kwolf68
For sure. Agree on Crow, he’s usually been great most nights and if he can regain his form and the team plays like it did last night they’ll win more often than not.
My stance on Toews is that he is probably playing hurt, it's probably affecting how he plays, and he's still trying to figure out how he is going to play, now that he is not going to be a force down low in the cycle. It doesn't do any good to slag on him for it. These guys are human, not indestructible robots.
If he's truly diminishing before our eyes, not a damn thing we can do about it. If any of you really want him gone, maybe they buy out him and Seabrook, the other current whipping boy on here, when the owners are likely to opt out of the CBA in the summer of 2019.
The bigger debate is how their contracts should have been handled. Kane and Toews have theirs negotiated simultaneously, giving them far more leverage than if they negotiated separately. We can talk about how easy it would have been to make them do $8.5 mill apiece for four years, but we all know that it's easier to make these proclamations from our armchairs than when dealing face to face with their agent(s), who make what they make for a reason.
Even with Seabrook, he had enormous leverage in those negotiations because the Hawks had nobody in their pipeline anytime soon who could step up in a top 4 role had he walked. It's the same reason Bickell got that contract, because they didn't have any big forwards who could shoulder the load he was carrying. And it's why they paid Crow, because who was going to be the guy if he walked?
Anyway, context is very important in any of these deals. Not very often could they tell agents at the negotiating table that they had plenty of prospects waiting in the wings to take their guys' spots in the lineup should they walk. And yes, their drafting record is fair game in this discussion, but it's not a reason to take it out on these guys for the overpays.
For sure. Agree on Crow, he’s usually been great most nights and if he can regain his form and the team plays like it did last night they’ll win more often than not. - HawkintheD
Yup. Crow is really the last of our worries. Without him they have 3-4 less wins at least. goalies can't be perfect, now and then 1 will slip through. But for every (few and far between) shot that goes "through" Crow, he's making 10 sparkling saves to keep the team in games. He is the MVP of the team so far. IF they get this offense going and he is playing like he can look out.
I still worry greatly about the defense and center depth/face off skills is lacking as well. We need someone who can win draws other than 19. Schmaltz is back on wing, likely because he's so incompetent in the FO circle...Anisimov's 45% is stellar compared to Nick....though that line of 8/15/88 looks fabulous.
Yup. Crow is really the last of our worries. Without him they have 3-4 less wins at least. goalies can't be perfect, now and then 1 will slip through. But for every (few and far between) shot that goes "through" Crow, he's making 10 sparkling saves to keep the team in games. He is the MVP of the team so far. IF they get this offense going and he is playing like he can look out.
I still worry greatly about the defense and center depth/face off skills is lacking as well. We need someone who can win draws other than 19. Schmaltz is back on wing, likely because he's so incompetent in the FO circle...Anisimov's 45% is stellar compared to Nick....though that line of 8/15/88 looks fabulous. - kwolf68
The post is directed at advanced stats overall, not any single person or poster. My father never played the game of hockey in his youth but got into the sport as an adult and he is extremely knowledgable about the game. The main point of my post is that the "eye-test" >> "advanced stats". No offense intended to anyone who has not played the game, coached the game, or officiated. I'd argue that if Toews line still has positive possession metrics, that is due to the extremely solid puck protection ability and speed of Saad + Panik. 14+20 fight off checks, create opportunities off the rush with their speed, and do not fall on the ice 10+ times per game like 19. Again, you can disagree with my assertion, but Toews is not playing anywhere near his $10.5mil contract...regardless of what Corsi or QOC stat you pull off the internet. - EnzoD
I think we can agree that stats are a tool to use for team management and coaches but not their only determinant. (That is unless you recently worked for the Arizona Coyotes or Florida Panthers and look where that got them).
If someone goes to the racetrack on a regular basis they don't make all of their betting decisions based solely on past performance charts and workout speeds listed in the Daily Racing Form. They take a look at the horse in the paddock, consider his post position, who the rider is, condition of the track etc.
In hockey, good coaches look for matchups that favour their players in specific circumstances. I don't think Q needs to look at any stats to know having Franson on the ice vs McDavid is a very bad idea or that the opposing coach is trying to expose his team's weaknesses. But what can he do if his best players aren't performing at their best, possibly due to factors we don't know anything about.
If Toews was a thoroughbred horse, maybe he has a quarter crack or bucked shin problems and a bad wager this race. But since he isn't, we don't really know. However I do agree that he ain't running at his best.
Bingo! This is why I hate stats as the be-all, end-all. Enzo explained what he saw looking at the game, how 19 played. He gave anecdotal evidence, he pointed out the flaws in 19's game. Either Enzo is FOS and these things did not happen or he's right and Toews had many failings last night.
And then someone is going to argue, NOOO...he actually played good, check out my stats. In short, Toews stunk last night. Anyone promoting STATS to argue Toews in fact DID PLAY well last night places their own credibility in peril.
This does NOT MEAN we hate Tazer or think he's a loser. It just means we believe he can be better. My son returned to Ice Hockey last week after a 2 month wrist injury against a team he should have had all kinds of room against, yet he was pulling up, firing low percentage shots, avoiding the slot, etc...in short, HE SUCKED. I know it was his first game back from injury so I get it that he's gonna be slow to get going, but the fact his line was +4 means NOTHING to me...he didn't play well. But he's a good player and I love him still. - kwolf68
Nobody said he played well. I personally only highlighted some things he did well at the end of the game to show he wasn't this complete trainwreck garbage player who did nothing, as was suggested. There's a difference between "he did some good things" and "He had a good game."
Shartie, if you didn't see this last night, I'll post it again so we can get some more agitation going on Toews:
I am tired of the Toews apologists.
- faces top QOC
- has played more hockey than any human being in the Milky Way galaxy
- short summer
- diet
- weight
- weight training
- speed/quickness training
- when the Moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter aligns with Mars
Let's face it - there is something wrong with the guy. Either lost his love of the game and desire to compete or there is something seriously wrong physically we don't know about.
Really, what other excuses can there be?
I happen to like the astrological ones.
Maybe Toews was seeing TV's Miss Cleo and her passing in 2016 threw him off?
- savvyone-1
Hey Savvy....you're just pointing out the obvious facts, IMO
Can you imagine if it was Kane who digressed after signing the contract?? He would be getting pummeled and zero excuses
I've been commenting on Toews decline the last few years, and was accused of being a Toews hater. But, IMO, he never improved his game - especially as Kane did every year.
Kane is worth every cent, IMO of his contract. He makes everyone around him better AND has always added an element to his game, it has seemed
Toews I think has been "covered" by having to always play with the teams and best players (Hossa at his best, Kane at times, etc). His falling down while skating and barely being touched isn't new. Hell, it's a great drinking game we've played for the last few years....every time he falls take a drink.
Hey Savvy....you're just pointing out the obvious facts, IMO
Can you imagine if it was Kane who digressed after signing the contract?? He would be getting pummeled and zero excuses
I've been commenting on Toews decline the last few years, and was accused of being a Toews hater. But, IMO, he never improved his game - especially as Kane did every year.
Kane is worth every cent, IMO of his contract. He makes everyone around him better AND has always added an element to his game, it has seemed
Toews I think has been "covered" by having to always play with the teams and best players (Hossa at his best, Kane at times, etc). His falling down while skating and barely being touched isn't new. Hell, it's a great drinking game we've played for the last few years....every time he falls take a drink. - PatShart
To be fair, Kane looked pretty checked out of a lot of games this year during their slump. Has only picked it up the last 2 or 3 games.
1..I was one of the first to mention Franson as a good 5-6 addition in the off-season. He has proven to be even more. Has fit in well in the Top 4 the last few games. Love his shot from the point.
2. Schmaltz made that second line tick last night. Great game.
3. Toews is not what he was 3-4 years ago, not even close. But, I think he will improve as the season goes on. Remember, the last 20 games last years was his best stretch in several years.
4. Hawks need to stop easing off on their pressing once they build a lead. Almost like the Leafs or Jets, no Hawks lead ever seems safe.
5. The defense, as a whole, seems to be becoming more and more solid as the season goes on.
6. The forwards are still a work in progress as far as "gelling". Still not playing as a group as I would like.
7. Net presence of Anisimov and Hayden is something we need more of. THAT is the way to score more consistently.
8. Hawks often come up BIG in BIG situations (playing a team on 6 game run). But often lay an egg against trash (ie, the Hab game)
9. Despite a couple of outings lately where he has let in a few too many, Crawford is elite. A Top 5 goalie in the league.
Nobody said he played well. I personally only highlighted some things he did well at the end of the game to show he wasn't this complete trainwreck garbage player who did nothing, as was suggested. There's a difference between "he did some good things" and "He had a good game." - JRoenick97
LOL. Yea and we won draws. For what he needs to offer this team he played terrible. He played below par. Yea, he also made a good pass one time to Panik. For what he is paid, which necessitated giving away players that could lighten the load on him, he was dominated at times. I understand Mats Zuccarello is now paying personal property taxes for how he owned Toews last night.
If we're at the stage of pointing out a few "good things" toews does each game instead of analyzing his control and domination (more often than not) of his opponents then we got serious problems.
We analyze the "good things" in the context of an entire game for youngsters, rookies, new players to the system,,,NOT 10 million dollar men who have two stud wingers on his line.
LOL. Yea and we won draws. For what he needs to offer this team he played terrible. He played below par. Yea, he also made a good pass one time to Panik. For what he is paid, which necessitated giving away players that could lighten the load on him, he was dominated at times. I understand Mats Zuccarello is now paying personal property taxes for how he owned Toews last night.
If we're at the stage of pointing out a few "good things" toews does each game instead of analyzing his control and domination (more often than not) of his opponents then we got serious problems.
We analyze the "good things" in the context of an entire game for youngsters, rookies, new players to the system,,,NOT 10 million dollar men who have two stud wingers on his line. - kwolf68
Read the rest of my comment. I didn't analyze his good things just because, it was in opposition to "he didn't do anything right" commentors. I'm not just coming out saying "Oh, Toews did some okay stuff sos that's fine." Context matters.
... Really, what other excuses can there be?
I happen to like the astrological ones.
- savvyone-1
Well, for the last 2 seasons the excuse also was no legitimate LW so we went and traded the one who could play with Kane for one that could play with The Captain, my Captain. This year he/they can point to no Hossa on his RW.
I like the guy and am thankful for what he's brought to the Hawk fans in terms of success but, if you're one of the highest paid players on the team and in the league you have to be able to make the players around you better.
Well, for the last 2 seasons the excuse also was no legitimate LW so we went and traded the one who could play with Kane for one that could play with The Captain, my Captain. This year he/they can point to no Hossa on his RW.
I like the guy and am thankful for what he's brought to the Hawk fans in terms of success but, if you're one of the highest paid players on the team and in the league you have to be able to make the players around you better. - Rota's Rooter
I like how people keep repeating this like he's the one who set his salary. His salary is on the GM.
Well, for the last 2 seasons the excuse also was no legitimate LW so we went and traded the one who could play with Kane for one that could play with The Captain, my Captain. This year he/they can point to no Hossa on his RW.
I like the guy and am thankful for what he's brought to the Hawk fans in terms of success but, if you're one of the highest paid players on the team and in the league you have to be able to make the players around you better. - Rota's Rooter
Hossa spent a fair amount of time on the 3rd line last year, not stapled to Toews wing like previous seasons
Throughout his Blackhawk career Sharp has been a sniper. He would find an open space near the left circle, someone would find him and he would hit the back of the net. Of course he did other things like win some board battles and make some nice passes. But at the end of the day he was/is a shooter. Playing on the 3rd line without players that can find him he is going to look bad.
I like:
Saad Toews Panik
Schmaltz Anisimov Kane
Sharp ________ ADB
Hartman Wingels Hayden
What a difference Hossa would have made.
Not too crazy about Kero or Wingels as the 3rd line center on a line with scorers playing the wings. I might give Hino a chance.
Is Highmore playing a wing in Rockford? I thought he looked good at center during camp.
I like what I have seen of Kempny, Rutta & Forsling. I am willing to give Franson, Murphy, and Oesterle a little more time. We all wanted Ulfie to make some changes in the scheme and to be more aggressive. Now Seabs and Keith are playing in a new scheme for the first time in 8+ years. They have not looked great. But some of that could be attributed to getting comfortable in the new scheme (playing with no one else who is that familiar with that scheme either).
Since the Summer this blog has said Schmaltz, ADB, Hartman and Hayden are AHL lifers (or just a little better). Anisimov is slow and awful. Seabs & Toews are old, worn out and awful. But as we have seen with ADB, Anisimov and Schmaltz a few good games and they will be praised wildly.
This team is interesting to watch and see it develop. I am not sure what the future holds. But it is still exciting to watch them play, even though some of their play looks like beer league hockey or a Chinese fire drill (no slight to the Chinese).
I have a "crazy" prediction. We'll stand pat at the TDL (or make MINOR moves that don't say "all in")
Come Feb/March time, Toews will light on fire and the Hawks as a team will get hot again, sneak into the playoffs as a 7/8th seed and upset. They'll play well in the 2nd round but ultimately lose in 6-7 games due to a combo of:
Not the right pieces/no good "shutdown line"
Crow letting in a couple softies at bad times
2nd round match up favored against our style of play
Point being is Toews will play well enough to somewhat silence half of this board, and the Hawks will redeem themselves *JUST* enough to give the fans/management hope that they could be a contender again over the summer and put off a rebuild another year as we slide into playoff-caliber mediocrity - Slofire94
Top 10
1) second half of the game the Hawks crashed the net and had net front presence. They scored goals, go figure.
2)ADB has been a pleaseny surprise. Really clicking despite the blender.
3) Seabs looked better in limited duty. At almost 7 mil, needs to go for limited minutes with awful decision making through the first half of the game. I say offer him bad contract for bad contract to EDM for RNH.
4) where did Hartman from last year go? Him and Hayden would be 2/3 of a superb pain in the @ss line if we had the #38 of last year to go with hayden this year.
5) great job killing the 4 min pp. Huge kill
6) embarassing seeing toews dumped twice by a guy 6" shorter and 30-40 lbs lighter than him.
7) Saad looks frustrated and is snakebit (outside of the OT GWG in carolina. Needs to relax.
8) great win over a hot team. Need one LHD and one RHD on each pairing. Poses clearing problems each time.
9) no 60 minute effort
10) kreider is a beast, would love to see him on Kane's line
I didn't watch the whole game but we gave up way to many oddman rushes and
breakaways, team's are focusing on Seabs for sure in that regard. And this is happening after dump ins, TOs and just ordinary breakouts, this is a trend that has
to stop.
PK was pretty good but I think we got lucky in the first with some good sticks.
We are in need of a #rd line C, we have options in the Rock, Kampf,/Dauphin and my
Cuz. One of these in between Sharp/Cat might work with Hartman/Wingels/Hayden
being a pretty good 4th
Seabs wasn't so bad from what I gather cuz he didn't play much, Q must be reading
this thread. Forsling improving and becoming pretty good, playing might help, see
Kempny/Rutta/ Murphy.
Toews earlier in his was career was the best player in Hockey, sorry Sid the simple
truth is he was. Today he no longer is but he isn't terrible either, Everyone can have an off night, maybe he did, but then did the King/Shattenkirk/Keith and many of the Rag's.
Heck they had so many odd man rushes without getting a shot on net
Schmaltz = much more less aggressive Jeremy Roenick
Vinnie = 1960's Lou Angotti - Hawkytalk
Sure remember that guy. I was happy when we got him because he could stick handle and fly but he never could put everything together.
However, whenever I see that name, one vision (nightmare) comes to mind. I don't remember the team or the year. I just remember Lou dangling with the puck along the blueline (last man back), coughing up the puck, and the opponent scoring a game changing goal on us.
Top 10
1) second half of the game the Hawks crashed the net and had net front presence. They scored goals, go figure.
2)ADB has been a pleaseny surprise. Really clicking despite the blender.
3) Seabs looked better in limited duty. At almost 7 mil, needs to go for limited minutes with awful decision making through the first half of the game. I say offer him bad contract for bad contract to EDM for RNH.
4) where did Hartman from last year go? Him and Hayden would be 2/3 of a superb pain in the @ss line if we had the #38 of last year to go with hayden this year.
5) great job killing the 4 min pp. Huge kill
6) embarassing seeing toews dumped twice by a guy 6" shorter and 30-40 lbs lighter than him.
7) Saad looks frustrated and is snakebit (outside of the OT GWG in carolina. Needs to relax.
8) great win over a hot team. Need one LHD and one RHD on each pairing. Poses clearing problems each time.
9) no 60 minute effort
10) kreider is a beast, would love to see him on Kane's line - ikeane
Yes. I didn't single out D-Cat in my Top 10. But, he has been good since the start of the season. Even the biggest doubters coming into the season have to be impressed by his first 20 games.
The guy came with the reputation as a sniper, so that part of his game did not surprise me. But what has surprised me though is his ability to handle the puck and the speed at which he plays the game.
As he is gaining confidence, he
- is handling the puck more
- is throwing the puck away less
- has learned to avoid the big hits he was taking earlier (in fact he is dishing out more than he is receiving)
Throughout his Blackhawk career Sharp has been a sniper. He would find an open space near the left circle, someone would find him and he would hit the back of the net. Of course he did other things like win some board battles and make some nice passes. But at the end of the day he was/is a shooter. Playing on the 3rd line without players that can find him he is going to look bad.
I like:
Saad Toews Panik
Schmaltz Anisimov Kane
Sharp ________ ADB
Hartman Wingels Hayden
What a difference Hossa would have made.
Not too crazy about Kero or Wingels as the 3rd line center on a line with scorers playing the wings. I might give Hino a chance.
Is Highmore playing a wing in Rockford? I thought he looked good at center during camp.
I like what I have seen of Kempny, Rutta & Forsling. I am willing to give Franson, Murphy, and Oesterle a little more time. We all wanted Ulfie to make some changes in the scheme and to be more aggressive. Now Seabs and Keith are playing in a new scheme for the first time in 8+ years. They have not looked great. But some of that could be attributed to getting comfortable in the new scheme (playing with no one else who is that familiar with that scheme either).
Since the Summer this blog has said Schmaltz, ADB, Hartman and Hayden are AHL lifers (or just a little better). Anisimov is slow and awful. Seabs & Toews are old, worn out and awful. But as we have seen with ADB, Anisimov and Schmaltz a few good games and they will be praised wildly.
This team is interesting to watch and see it develop. I am not sure what the future holds. But it is still exciting to watch them play, even though some of their play looks like beer league hockey or a Chinese fire drill (no slight to the Chinese). - -Doh-
I hope my son doesn't sprain his toe on the way into the rink.
