I won't say they are "garbage stats", as JRoenixk97 says down the line, but there is one glaring stat: in the last 10 games, he has only 1 goal with an opposing goalie in the net.

At some point, top six players have to score goals.
- StLBravesFan

"Intangibles" ... "Leadership" ... "Buzzwords"

I have a "crazy" prediction. We'll stand pat at the TDL (or make MINOR moves that don't say "all in")
Come Feb/March time, Toews will light on fire and the Hawks as a team will get hot again, sneak into the playoffs as a 7/8th seed and upset. They'll play well in the 2nd round but ultimately lose in 6-7 games due to a combo of:
Not the right pieces/no good "shutdown line"
Crow letting in a couple softies at bad times
2nd round match up favored against our style of play

Point being is Toews will play well enough to somewhat silence half of this board, and the Hawks will redeem themselves *JUST* enough to give the fans/management hope that they could be a contender again over the summer and put off a rebuild another year as we slide into playoff-caliber mediocrity

I won't say they are "garbage stats", as JRoenixk97 says down the line, but there is one glaring stat: in the last 10 games, he has only 1 goal with an opposing goalie in the net.

At some point, top six players have to score goals.
- StLBravesFan

Is that a Toews sucks issue or an issue for the team in general. Last 10 games Kane scored 2, Saad 1 (OT 3v3) Panik scored none, Schmaltz 1. AA/ADB got hot, but nobody else is finishing. Kane,Toews,Saad,AA are all putting rubber on net, so it should even out.

Is Toews still taking that Onnit crap?

He looks weak on the puck and either avoids puck battles at all costs or loses them easily.

if he is protecting a bad back, how bad is it? Should he be shut down to have surgery?
- waitforawhistle

As far as I know he and Keith still take it. Hate seeing great players get caught up in fad diet/exercise gimmicks. Onnit is clearly bullpoop with about 10 minutes of Googling.

How has their trainer/teammates not called them out on this nonsense? Can we have an intervention? They're two of our most important players alongside Kane and Crawford.

Yeah, goals and wins are the ultimate numbers, but we're talking about the stats that are indicative of performance (at least we are if the blog is going to quote them in a flawed manner). Last year anyone looking at the progression of shot metrics over the season knew Toews was likely to break out and then he did. Same with Hossa between 2015-16 to 2016-17. Cause hey, shots metrics typically are good as predicting things, who knew? It's not like a crystal ball or some poop but they're pretty good for that kind of thing.

If shots lead to goals, then more shots and higher quality ones give them more of a chance. Not you STL, but I feel like sometimes people have such a bad reaction to "stats" that they forget that it's really as simple as that.
- L_B_R

I'd still like someone to collect stats on how many SATs are taken with someone(s) at the net bothering the goalie vs. SATs without any impediment to the goalie seeing and stopping them.

I feel like sometimes people have such a bad reaction to "stats" that they forget that it's really as simple as that.
- L_B_R

It's not a reaction to stats, its that stats are sometimes overused, can be misleading and/or interpreted wrong. Sometimes stats don't tell the story. And someone who didn't even watch the game can cobble some stats to "prove" player X played "good".

Toews played a poor game last night and I don't care what stats exist that show otherwise, he was not good. He was slow to read and react and made multiple poor efforts and / or was beaten badly by another player who "wanted it more" on more than 1 occasion. This happens, I get it, you won't win every battle, but when it was so consistent as it was last night and has been I don't need a rash of stats to make me feel good about the captain. In short, he needs to be better, period.

YES, stats can be useful, but without context, analysis and explanation they are just
a bunch of numbers. Maybe these wonderful CF, COC stats may show that Panik and Saad are carrying Toews.

Is this the scene right after Rick ' s wife was shot by his son
- HamiltonHawk

As far as I know he and Keith still take it. Hate seeing great players get caught up in fad diet/exercise gimmicks. Onnit is clearly bullpoop with about 10 minutes of Googling.

How has their trainer/teammates not called them out on this nonsense? Can we have an intervention? They're two of our most important players alongside Kane and Crawford.
- ObeseOprah

Maybe he has an unhealthy relationship with healthy living choices?

Who knows.

Maybe he has an unhealthy relationship with healthy living choices?

Who knows.
- Hank3Henshaw

Toews has been too busy focusing on his line of toasters, available exclusively at Canadian Tire.

My face on a toasted piece of bread??? Yeah, this is happening.
Presenting, the Toews-ter. #GiveAToast @CanadianTire https://t.co/gurhM4flfT pic.twitter.com/1duZACZtsh

— Jonathan Toews (@JonathanToews) November 16, 2017

You can cherry pick advanced stats to paint whatever narrative you desire. If you have never played the game then I guess that's a way for some people to feel like "experts" bc you can find some obscure possession stat to support nearly any hypothesis.

I've played AAA/AA hockey my entire youth in Chicago, have been an IHOA referee since age 12 and I coach the young kids now. I watch Toews and every high salary Hawk player very closely and regardless of your Corsi BS, Toews is NOT an elite player right now. Slow feet/legs and unable to create separation from defenders with speed or dangles with the puck. Falling all over the ice losing puck battles to 5'7" 170 pounders, and last night he was chasing the play in the defensive zone and pretty much coasting. He has two of the fastest skaters in the NHL in 14 and 20 on his wings and that line has been producing crap lately. Jonathan Toews is the 2nd highest paid player in the league, but looks like he should be the 200th.

DeBrincat clearly isn't NHL ready, he still needs a season or two in Rockford.

I think they should start taking Toews off of either the PP or PK. Maybe that will help him
- PatShart

Shartie, if you didn't see this last night, I'll post it again so we can get some more agitation going on Toews:

I am tired of the Toews apologists.
- faces top QOC
- has played more hockey than any human being in the Milky Way galaxy
- short summer
- diet
- weight
- weight training
- speed/quickness training
- when the Moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter aligns with Mars

Let's face it - there is something wrong with the guy. Either lost his love of the game and desire to compete or there is something seriously wrong physically we don't know about.

Really, what other excuses can there be?
I happen to like the astrological ones.
Maybe Toews was seeing TV's Miss Cleo and her passing in 2016 threw him off?

You can cherry pick advanced stats to paint whatever narrative you desire. If you have never played the game then I guess that's a way for some people to feel like "experts" bc you can find some obscure possession stat to support nearly any hypothesis.

I've played AAA/AA hockey my entire youth in Chicago, have been an IHOA referee since age 12 and I coach the young kids now. I watch Toews and every high salary Hawk player very closely and regardless of your Corsi BS, Toews is NOT an elite player right now. Slow feet/legs and unable to create separation from defenders with speed or dangles with the puck. Falling all over the ice losing puck battles to 5'7" 170 pounders, and last night he was chasing the play in the defensive zone and pretty much coasting. He has two of the fastest skaters in the NHL in 14 and 20 on his wings and that line has been producing crap lately. Jonathan Toews is the 2nd highest paid player in the league, but looks like he should be the 200th.
- EnzoD

Bingo! This is why I hate stats as the be-all, end-all. Enzo explained what he saw looking at the game, how 19 played. He gave anecdotal evidence, he pointed out the flaws in 19's game. Either Enzo is FOS and these things did not happen or he's right and Toews had many failings last night.

And then someone is going to argue, NOOO...he actually played good, check out my stats. In short, Toews stunk last night. Anyone promoting STATS to argue Toews in fact DID PLAY well last night places their own credibility in peril.

This does NOT MEAN we hate Tazer or think he's a loser. It just means we believe he can be better. My son returned to Ice Hockey last week after a 2 month wrist injury against a team he should have had all kinds of room against, yet he was pulling up, firing low percentage shots, avoiding the slot, etc...in short, HE SUCKED. I know it was his first game back from injury so I get it that he's gonna be slow to get going, but the fact his line was +4 means NOTHING to me...he didn't play well. But he's a good player and I love him still.

You can cherry pick advanced stats to paint whatever narrative you desire. If you have never played the game then I guess that's a way for some people to feel like "experts" bc you can find some obscure possession stat to support nearly any hypothesis.

I've played AAA/AA hockey my entire youth in Chicago, have been an IHOA referee since age 12 and I coach the young kids now. I watch Toews and every high salary Hawk player very closely and regardless of your Corsi BS, Toews is NOT an elite player right now. Slow feet/legs and unable to create separation from defenders with speed or dangles with the puck. Falling all over the ice losing puck battles to 5'7" 170 pounders, and last night he was chasing the play in the defensive zone and pretty much coasting. He has two of the fastest skaters in the NHL in 14 and 20 on his wings and that line has been producing crap lately. Jonathan Toews is the 2nd highest paid player in the league, but looks like he should be the 200th.
- EnzoD

No reason to disparage those of us (most of the people here, I would guess) who didn't play hockey at your level.

You can cherry pick advanced stats to paint whatever narrative you desire. If you have never played the game then I guess that's a way for some people to feel like "experts" bc you can find some obscure possession stat to support nearly any hypothesis.

I've played AAA/AA hockey my entire youth in Chicago, have been an IHOA referee since age 12 and I coach the young kids now. I watch Toews and every high salary Hawk player very closely and regardless of your Corsi BS, Toews is NOT an elite player right now. Slow feet/legs and unable to create separation from defenders with speed or dangles with the puck. Falling all over the ice losing puck battles to 5'7" 170 pounders, and last night he was chasing the play in the defensive zone and pretty much coasting. He has two of the fastest skaters in the NHL in 14 and 20 on his wings and that line has been producing crap lately. Jonathan Toews is the 2nd highest paid player in the league, but looks like he should be the 200th.
- EnzoD

I appreciate LBR's statistical insight, but I've always felt the same way when it comes to stats and sports. It's a way for someone to sound more intelligent than someone else in a sports conversation/argument.

I'll take the guy with "worse" stats but who is finding the back of the net and helping his team win, over the guy not doing that, but who has has better numbers in some obscure stat that no one should care about.

Bottom line: He's just not getting it done right now and it doesn't matter how many "intangible off the scoresheet" stats he's satisfying .

You can cherry pick advanced stats to paint whatever narrative you desire. If you have never played the game then I guess that's a way for some people to feel like "experts" bc you can find some obscure possession stat to support nearly any hypothesis.

I've played AAA/AA hockey my entire youth in Chicago, have been an IHOA referee since age 12 and I coach the young kids now. I watch Toews and every high salary Hawk player very closely and regardless of your Corsi BS, Toews is NOT an elite player right now. Slow feet/legs and unable to create separation from defenders with speed or dangles with the puck. Falling all over the ice losing puck battles to 5'7" 170 pounders, and last night he was chasing the play in the defensive zone and pretty much coasting. He has two of the fastest skaters in the NHL in 14 and 20 on his wings and that line has been producing crap lately. Jonathan Toews is the 2nd highest paid player in the league, but looks like he should be the 200th.
- EnzoD

Those numbers aren't cherry picked - they're literally just per 60 stats of shots, quantity and based on location. That's it. What people make of them are up to them, but more shots and better quality ones typically end up resulting in goals, which all I want people to remember.

Oh and I played hockey from when I was a kid through high school (until junior year cause we moved to the south then). However, I don't actually think me having played means I know better than those who didn't - my dad never played a game in his life outside of a pick-up league but he was always better at seeing things on the ice than I was. I've met and talked to many people, some on this blog, that have some great insights into the game that have never played or coached or whatever.

I think potentially Forsling is better than Hammer. He is already better in the offensive zone. Hammer was one dimensional. It was a good dimension, but he can't skate, pass or shoot the puck like Gus. Yes, in the D-zone, Hammer is much better, but Forsling is showing great strides there. Hammer never got the offensive side of the game down (though the Hawks honestly didn't need that from him).

Toews was awful last night. I love the guy and I know the apologists will be coming hard and fast with garbage stats like QOC bla bla. But the eye test is clear, he played a poor game last night. Certainly not like a first line center who EXPECTS to play high QOC. The fact is the guy has been very inconsistent at best for going on 3 years now. Concerns about him are LEGIT.

Trying to figure out why people here are female doging about the refs. Did the Hawks even get called for a penalty in the last two periods?
- kwolf68

no they did not...even the phantom whistle did not get them...on adb's goal the ref was where he should be on near the goal line...he was ready to blow the whistle but he saw it drip through...if he is in front of lundquist that might have been whistled dead...on the ranger freeze no goal...the right call again but it was close...craw had it covered and it poked in from under his glove...

No reason to disparage those of us (most of the people here, I would guess) who didn't play hockey at your level.
- StLBravesFan

The post is directed at advanced stats overall, not any single person or poster. My father never played the game of hockey in his youth but got into the sport as an adult and he is extremely knowledgable about the game. The main point of my post is that the "eye-test" >> "advanced stats". No offense intended to anyone who has not played the game, coached the game, or officiated. I'd argue that if Toews line still has positive possession metrics, that is due to the extremely solid puck protection ability and speed of Saad + Panik. 14+20 fight off checks, create opportunities off the rush with their speed, and do not fall on the ice 10+ times per game like 19. Again, you can disagree with my assertion, but Toews is not playing anywhere near his $10.5mil contract...regardless of what Corsi or QOC stat you pull off the internet.

The post is directed at advanced stats overall, not any single person or poster. My father never played the game of hockey in his youth but got into the sport as an adult and he is extremely knowledgable about the game. The main point of my post is that the "eye-test" >> "advanced stats". No offense intended to anyone who has not played the game, coached the game, or officiated.
- EnzoD

No one said stats were better than the eye test, did they? I don't think they did. The blog post used stats to make a point, which is the only reason they are even being mentioned beyond that. I didn't even necessarily say that Toews was playing fine, just that there is nothing in the shot metrics to suggest Toews play has declined. Which is factually true. No one has to think Toews' shots tell the whole story, though obvs.

As always, stats should just be another tool in which to evaluate play and to possibly eliminate subjectivity and bias that is inherent to human evaluation. For me, stats and eye test should be used together.

Great post Justin agree on pretty much everything . Frosling really had a game last night ,let's hope he continues to progress . I saw more smiles all around last night ,and of course they were winning and getting some bounces for a change .But to me it just seemed the team had a better feel last night a Little more swagger . Hope they are turning the corner .

On Toews I may be one of the biggest Pompon wavers and sunshine lollypops guy's around when it comes to the HAWKS . I have always been a big fan of Kane .And I defended him upside down when he had his trouble ,and JJ was saying they were thinking of trading him . And I know Toews has not be himself of late ,but I also know he is trying his best to get it going . I have faith in these guy's ,everyone goes through stuff personnel physical emotional, life a complicated dance . I still believe in Toews and will to the end, the guy's a winner and he will find his way .. GO HAWKS !!! ..............Bring back Vinny !!!!!

Those numbers aren't cherry picked - they're literally just per 60 stats of shots, quantity and based on location. That's it. What people make of them are up to them, but more shots and better quality ones typically end up resulting in goals, which all I want people to remember.

Oh and I played hockey from when I was a kid through high school (until junior year cause we moved to the south then). However, I don't actually think me having played means I know better than those who didn't - my dad never played a game in his life outside of a pick-up league but he was always better at seeing things on the ice than I was. I've met and talked to many people, some on this blog, that have some great insights into the game that have never played or coached or whatever.
- L_B_R

his "fancy" stats as you point out..have been pretty decent; he has had some good games but got stoned by the goalie or missed the net; last night was not a good game for him PERIOD...the eye and smell test don't cut it with him...yeah he will have a surge at some point but then disappear again, its been that way for over 2 years. the stats that jl posted are quite telling..

1 assist in the last 6 games and i can remeber only a few of any quality chances

No one said stats were better than the eye test, did they? I don't think they did. The blog post used stats to make a point, which is the only reason they are even being mentioned beyond that. I didn't even necessarily say that Toews was playing fine, just that there is nothing in the shot metrics to suggest Toews play has declined. Which is factually true. No one has to think Toews' shots tell the whole story, though obvs.

As always, stats should just be another tool in which to evaluate play and to possibly eliminate subjectivity and bias that is inherent to human evaluation. For me, stats and eye test should be used together.
- L_B_R

Agreed on this point, but I think a lot of teams now have an imbalance and lean more towards the numbers.

Personally, I'd rather have a coach be able to be a coach than play "Moneyball" and have to take direction from some nerd who is crunching numbers in the front office, instead of being able to make the call/decision himself.

I think that's happening a lot now.

Look at the Panthers. They fired Gallant--who had that young team surging-- and replaced him with an analytics 'Yes man' and they went into a tailspin.

Hawks / Pens Sunday. Me and older son will be there. Older son is wearing a Harty Havlat jersey. I hope my son doesn't sprain his toe on the way into the rink.

The post is directed at advanced stats overall, not any single person or poster. My father never played the game of hockey in his youth but got into the sport as an adult and he is extremely knowledgable about the game. The main point of my post is that the "eye-test" >> "advanced stats". No offense intended to anyone who has not played the game, coached the game, or officiated. I'd argue that if Toews line still has positive possession metrics, that is due to the extremely solid puck protection ability and speed of Saad + Panik. 14+20 fight off checks, create opportunities off the rush with their speed, and do not fall on the ice 10+ times per game like 19. Again, you can disagree with my assertion, but Toews is not playing anywhere near his $10.5mil contract...regardless of what Corsi or QOC stat you pull off the internet.
- EnzoD

Who is playing to their salary on the Hawks right now? Crawford and some of the young guys. AA....and that is about it.

They test is one thing, but it is also subjective. Guys lose battles, bobble pucks, fall down, and that is part of the game. Good games, bad games, but you can't measure a lot of those things. You might see Toews lose a puck battle to a smaller player, but it happened in his "glory days" too. The stats help tie it all together because unless you are going back and re-watching random regular season games, good luck making a fair comparison.

Even this season, during the first 8-10 games, that Toews-Saad-Panik line was playing great. Better than the other lines, but that gets forgotten.

Who is playing to their salary on the Hawks right now? Crawford and some of the young guys. AA....and that is about it.
.
- breadbag

AA is playing above his salary right now. Which will be made up for when he goes on the side of a milk carton for 10-15 games at some point later. Hopefully by then the other guys will have picked it up.

Great post Justin agree on pretty much everything . Frosling really had a game last night ,let's hope he continues to progress . I saw more smiles all around last night ,and of course they were winning and getting some bounces for a change .But to me it just seemed the team had a better feel last night a Little more swagger . Hope they are turning the corner .

On Toews I may be one of the biggest Pompon wavers and sunshine lollypops guy's around when it comes to the HAWKS . I have always been a big fan of Kane .And I defended him upside down when he had his trouble ,and JJ was saying they were thinking of trading him . And I know Toews has not be himself of late ,but I also know he is trying his best to get it going . I have faith in these guy's ,everyone goes through stuff personnel physical emotional, life a complicated dance . I still believe in Toews and will to the end, the guy's a winner and he will find his way .. GO HAWKS !!! ..............Bring back Vinny !!!!!
- oldduffman

i agree on vinny...someone goes on injury list he is up...