I'd see Sharp on that line. Either:

Saad-Toews-Panik
Sharp-Schmaltz-Kane

or

Sharp-Toews-Panik
Saad-Schmaltz-Kane
- DarthKane

Are you thinking Schmaltz bumps AA to #3 C?

I'd see Sharp on that line. Either:

Saad-Toews-Panik
Sharp-Schmaltz-Kane

or

Sharp-Toews-Panik
Saad-Schmaltz-Kane
- DarthKane

That line is cruising right now in the scrimmage. Pretty tic-tac-toe goal at 5v5 and PP goal with their unit + Seabrook (Sharp primary assist).

Are you thinking Schmaltz bumps AA to #3 C?
- z1990z

It's all about balancing the lines. Sharp-Schmaltz-Kane is shooter-playmaker-playmaker, which is one of the best combinations. It could be similar to Versteeg-Richard-Kane - a line with no pure net front big guys, but those that cycle and cut east-west into the slot well. We know Sharp and Kane can do it, so it's just up to seeing if Schmaltz can. This would also have a faceoff option on the same line if Schmaltz is still learning.

AA being 3C could also mean spreading out proven talent that knows the system well. Sharp on the 3rd could do the same, but AA is also a choice and he's a good defensively responsible center. The biggest issue I see is that with Sharp-Schmaltz both in the top 6 and AA in the b6 is that there aren't a lot of creative offense guys down there now. Will they miss that or can they just rely on the cycle game completely?

The good news is that options for the top 9 seem really solid this year. If the 4th line is the biggest worry in terms of the forward core, they're in a decent spot.

On another note, Murphy has looked really active this game in a offensive way - unexpected considering that's not his role in the past, but maybe playing with Keith will bring that out in him.

It's all about balancing the lines. Sharp-Schmaltz-Kane is shooter-playmaker-playmaker, which is one of the best combinations. It could be similar to Versteeg-Richard-Kane - a line with no pure net front big guys, but those that cycle and cut east-west into the slot well. We know Sharp and Kane can do it, so it's just up to seeing if Schmaltz can. This would also have a faceoff option on the same line if Schmaltz is still learning.

AA being 3C could also mean spreading out proven talent that knows the system well. Sharp on the 3rd could do the same, but AA is also a choice and he's a good defensively responsible center. The biggest issue I see is that with Sharp-Schmaltz both in the top 6 and AA in the b6 is that there aren't a lot of creative offense guys down there now. Will they miss that or can they just rely on the cycle game completely?

The good news is that options for the top 9 seem really solid this year. If the 4th line is the biggest worry in terms of the forward core, they're in a decent spot.

On another note, Murphy has looked really active this game in a offensive way - unexpected considering that's not his role in the past, but maybe playing with Keith will bring that out in him.
- L_B_R

Great Insight Thx

It's all about balancing the lines. Sharp-Schmaltz-Kane is shooter-playmaker-playmaker, which is one of the best combinations. It could be similar to Versteeg-Richard-Kane - a line with no pure net front big guys, but those that cycle and cut east-west into the slot well. We know Sharp and Kane can do it, so it's just up to seeing if Schmaltz can. This would also have a faceoff option on the same line if Schmaltz is still learning.

AA being 3C could also mean spreading out proven talent that knows the system well. Sharp on the 3rd could do the same, but AA is also a choice and he's a good defensively responsible center. The biggest issue I see is that with Sharp-Schmaltz both in the top 6 and AA in the b6 is that there aren't a lot of creative offense guys down there now. Will they miss that or can they just rely on the cycle game completely?

The good news is that options for the top 9 seem really solid this year. If the 4th line is the biggest worry in terms of the forward core, they're in a decent spot.

On another note, Murphy has looked really active this game in a offensive way - unexpected considering that's not his role in the past, but maybe playing with Keith will bring that out in him.
- L_B_R

Just imagine what the lineup would be like if Hossa was playing.

Could we be looking at

Toews Panik Saad
Schmaltz Kane Hinostrosa
AA Hayden Hartman
Sharp DB Wingels

Dauphin/ Kero
- Colbyboy

Same problem, they're gonna get pushed all over the ice, AND there is not a legit LW on the line, AND Schmaltz might need to be better than 38% in the dot

It's camp guys, take it all wth a huge grain of salt

Same problem, they're gonna get pushed all over the ice, AND there is not a legit LW on the line, AND Schmaltz might need to be better than 38% in the dot

It's camp guys, take it all wth a huge grain of salt
- John Jaeckel

It is camp but both Kempny and Murphy with huge turnovers. One leading to great Hartman scoring chance (Cat with the steal and pass to Hartman), the other leading to Sharp's breakaway goal.

It is camp but both Kempny and Murphy with huge turnovers. One leading to great Hartman scoring chance (Cat with the steal and pass to Hartman), the other leading to Sharp's breakaway goal.
- onehundredlevel

Not watching camp live but from what I've read, Sharp is having a strong camp so far. Goal and 2 assists. The breakaway goal must've gotten a huge roar from the fans.

It's all about balancing the lines. Sharp-Schmaltz-Kane is shooter-playmaker-playmaker, which is one of the best combinations. It could be similar to Versteeg-Richard-Kane - a line with no pure net front big guys, but those that cycle and cut east-west into the slot well. We know Sharp and Kane can do it, so it's just up to seeing if Schmaltz can. This would also have a faceoff option on the same line if Schmaltz is still learning.

AA being 3C could also mean spreading out proven talent that knows the system well. Sharp on the 3rd could do the same, but AA is also a choice and he's a good defensively responsible center. The biggest issue I see is that with Sharp-Schmaltz both in the top 6 and AA in the b6 is that there aren't a lot of creative offense guys down there now. Will they miss that or can they just rely on the cycle game completely?

The good news is that options for the top 9 seem really solid this year. If the 4th line is the biggest worry in terms of the forward core, they're in a decent spot.

On another note, Murphy has looked really active this game in a offensive way - unexpected considering that's not his role in the past, but maybe playing with Keith will bring that out in him.
- L_B_R

Sorry LBR, all due respect, this is somewhat a false equivalency.

First, Bickell also played a lot with Richards and Kane, and especially when it mattered—in the playoffs. Second, although Richards was clearly in the twilight of
his career, unless Schmaltz steps up significantly this year as a centerman, Richards was probably better in all phases of the game in terms of what you need from a center.

Unfortunately, I think you may be falling into the trap of overvaluing "our guys" and especially our prospects versus proven NHL veterans. Unless Schmaltz proves otherwise in a hurry.

I will rest on the argument that Kane generally plays MUCH better when he has at least one power player who does more things than just "being big," which is why, granted, maybe, somewhat you can get some of those things from a smaller guy who plays bigger. Like Toews, or sort of Sharp or Versteeg.

I've just seen Kane get marginalized (literally and figuratively) too many times when the style of play becomes all perimeter. It's almost not worth arguing, the body of evidence is so huge and abiding.

Sure, but tell me when he has produced WITHOUT a large, physical player on his line with him?

I don't remember when. The only time I can think of was when he played with Toews and Sharp. But in those days both Toews and Sharp played bigger than their size and even today, stylistically, Toews is more of a pure power player than anything else.

Otherwise, Bickell, Brouwer, Byfuglien, AA, Shaw, Saad, even Carcillo are all guys who have played with Kane, and I'm probably leaving someone else of this ilk out.

Coaches make lines in order to win games. Kane without a road grader type guy, or someone who plays more that style AT MINIMUM, quickly becomes a perimeter player and MUCH less effective. Give him someone to go get pucks, screen goalies, create space, different story.
- John Jaeckel

Sure, I have some examples from the last few seasons.

2014-2015 Kane played mostly with Brad Richards and Versteeg mostly and next on the wing after Versteeg was Sharp. There was very little physical play.

Even last year, consider this.

Kane spent 60.6% of his even strength time playing with AA and Panarin and he scored 43.9% of this even strength points with that combination.

After that the next most common combinations where with

Panarin/Toews/Schmaltz/Kero, who he spent a combined 32% of this Even Strength time with and scored 24.3% of his points. Toews (whom everyone complained about not playing physical) was the most physical of those combinations, but Kane was effective.

It is camp but both Kempny and Murphy with huge turnovers. One leading to great Hartman scoring chance (Cat with the steal and pass to Hartman), the other leading to Sharp's breakaway goal.
- onehundredlevel

Right. I'll stop reading there. Has Murphy played fairly significant minutes and roles in the NHL before? Yes. Has Kempny, meh, for a year, kind of.

Rather have mistakes here than in the regular season, and yes, you will have more mistakes here than in the regular season or the playoffs.

Sure, I have some examples from the last few seasons.

2014-2015 Kane played mostly with Brad Richards and Versteeg mostly and next on the wing after Versteeg was Sharp. There was very little physical play.

Even last year, consider this.

Kane spent 60.6% of his even strength time playing with AA and Panarin and he scored 43.9% of this even strength points with that combination.

After that the next most common combinations where with

Panarin/Toews/Schmaltz/Kero, who he spent a combined 32% of this Even Strength time with and scored 24.3% of his points. Toews (whom everyone complained about not playing physical) was the most physical of those combinations, but Kane was effective.
- breadbag

He also saw better defensive matchups when playing with AA and Panarin, that was one of the best lines in the league.

I WILL grant that sometimes, the opposing D pairs will allow a coach to load up on speed/skill or have to go "all heavy."

But Patrick Kane, throughout his career, has mostly had at least one big player on his line. That is not happenstance.

if we were all coaches here because . . . Corsi . . . what a different world it would be. But coaches make those decisions intentionally and with good reason.

I can pluck statistics out the air too. But I also know in real NHL hockey, a lot less scoring is done when all the puck and forwards do is dance around the perimeter, and that smaller/skill players generally have a much harder time getting the hard, sloppy goals around the net and in the slot. AND that guys like Kane generally do a lot more business when someone else has d-men occupied down low and along the wall, or their butt planted in front of the net. Just seen ittoo may times, both ways.

Hey, let's see if ADB/Schmaltz/Kane plays together more than 5-10 games this season (if at all) and how that works out against St. Louis or Edmonton with Adam Larsson. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I'm not making any bets on it.

That line is cruising right now in the scrimmage. Pretty tic-tac-toe goal at 5v5 and PP goal with their unit + Seabrook (Sharp primary assist).
- L_B_R

FWIW, I can sort of see Sharp Schmaltz Kane, especially because Sharp is actually a pretty decent FO guy. And he plays bigger for his size.

Right. I'll stop reading there. Has Murphy played fairly significant minutes and roles in the NHL before? Yes. Has Kempny, meh, for a year, kind of.

Rather have mistakes here than in the regular season, and yes, you will have more mistakes here than in the regular season or the playoffs.
- John Jaeckel

Considering Kempny was in Q's doghouse a lot last year...yeah...it does kind of matter. He can't be making those same mistakes this year....or he won't play much. Murphy has wiggle room. Kempny does not.

Sorry LBR, all due respect, this is somewhat a false equivalency.

First, Bickell also played a lot with Richards and Kane, and especially when it mattered—in the playoffs. Second, although Richards was clearly in the twilight of
his career, unless Schmaltz steps up significantly this year as a centerman, Richards was probably better in all phases of the game in terms of what you need from a center.

Unfortunately, I think you may be falling into the trap of overvaluing "our guys" and especially our prospects versus proven NHL veterans. Unless Schmaltz proves otherwise in a hurry.

I will rest on the argument that Kane generally plays MUCH better when he has at least one power player who does more things than just "being big," which is why, granted, maybe, somewhat you can get some of those things from a smaller guy who plays bigger. Like Toews, or sort of Sharp or Versteeg.

I've just seen Kane get marginalized (literally and figuratively) too many times when the style of play becomes all perimeter. It's almost not worth arguing, the body of evidence is so huge and abiding.
- John Jaeckel

Well tbf I didn't say they *would* be like that line, just that they *could* be.

Sure, Bickell did play with them, but almost exclusively during the playoffs - less than 6% in the regular season. Bickell actually started out with Richards-Kane but got bumped out after just a few games because they were not good in the rs. Richards-Kane were with Versteeg mostly and then Sharp when Versteeg got injured. Bickell-Richards-Kane were a so-so line in the playoffs and had a lower (sub-50) GF% than any other line combo with Kane, though I think that had to do with Bickell's health more than anything. So no, it's not false equivalency because Versteeg-Richards-Kane were an excellent line prior to Versteeg's injury and Sharp-Schmaltz-Kane share some similarities in style, even if not in realized potential. Plus, you classified Sharp as one of those guys who play bigger so Kane would still have someone like that on his line. Beyond making sure Schmaltz is ready for that role (which I'm definitely suspect of atm), it's a line that on paper *could* work. Maybe or it could poop the bed lol.

And last, I don't think I'm not overvaluing anyone. Just said it was a possible line combo that had potential and maybe helped spread some depth. It's not like I've said I think Schmaltz is better than Anisimov at any point. I mean, I'm the one coming to AA's defense when people say he "just a 3C" (which is false) or try to minimize the impact he had on the Panarin-Kane success (important). If anything, people have accused me of overvaluing vets like Anisimov lol. And I'd argued against combos of Panarin-Schmaltz-Kane or more recently Debrincat-Schmaltz-Kane because that really is too much playmaker on one line. Q's going to balance the lines how he likes and it's a legit option. I'm equally fine, as I've said in the past, with Schmaltz starting out at 3C to be in a more offense-sheltered role (my ideal line combo was Sharp-Schmaltz-Hartman) and AA staying with Kane, or Schmaltz staying on the wing if that's the best position for him.

Hossa, Sharp, Kruger, and Anisimov might be the players I've defended the most over the years. Add some Toews in last year. Mostly though, I just like my players to be effective at the NHL level and within their roles given to them by Q. Vets, rookie, young guy still learning, newbies, guys who've been on the team for years - idc, just be good at their job.

@MarkLazerus
Tomas Jurco scores. This might be the only time I type that all season.

Kind of harsh but sadly could be true.

He also saw better defensive matchups when playing with AA and Panarin, that was one of the best lines in the league.

I WILL grant that sometimes, the opposing D pairs will allow a coach to load up on speed/skill or have to go "all heavy."

But Patrick Kane, throughout his career, has mostly had at least one big player on his line. That is not happenstance.

if we were all coaches here because . . . Corsi . . . what a different world it would be. But coaches make those decisions intentionally and with good reason.

I can pluck statistics out the air too. But I also know in real NHL hockey, a lot less scoring is done when all the puck and forwards do is dance around the perimeter, and that smaller/skill players generally have a much harder time getting the hard, sloppy goals around the net and in the slot. AND that guys like Kane generally do a lot more business when someone else has d-men occupied down low and along the wall, or their butt planted in front of the net. Just seen ittoo may times, both ways.

Hey, let's see if ADB/Schmaltz/Kane plays together more than 5-10 games this season (if at all) and how that works out against St. Louis or Edmonton with Adam Larsson. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I'm not making any bets on it.



- John Jaeckel

Always appreciate the back and forth on our thoughts.

I'm not advocating that he has to play with Schmaltz and DeBrincat, but Kane doesn't need to play with AA. That was my point. AA is borderline a 2C (but more a 3C) and Kane is one of the best offensive wingers in the game. My point was more that Kane has produced without AA and would continue to do so, if they end up on different lines, so that AA can be used more defensively and Kane more offensively.

Kane can play with many different folks and still be effective. IMO, I think Kane is at his best with balanced player who can do a bit of everything. He has played with plenty of "Big" players didn't mesh or had no finish too. I'm not interested in going into an analysis of the size of Kane's linemates or anything like that, but he can play well when playing with other creative players. Panarin-Schmaltz-Kane was an example at the end of last season. They had a different dynamic than Panarin - AA - Kane but the puck still went in the net.

Personally for me, I'm still not buying the hype of the Panarin-AA-Kane line being one of the best around. Sure, they scored some goals (given the golden opportunities in the offensive zone.) but some of it at the expense of opportunities for other lines. Panarin-AA-Kane as a line were mediocre defensively and there were plenty of lines around the league just as lethal who could defend much better. I prefer the 2 way lines that beat you at both ends. I would also feel better if Panarin-AA-Kane as a line had any success scoring in the playoffs. That would have at least been something given that they were the line that was supposed to be able to score and they got shut down almost completely.

Considering Kempny was in Q's doghouse a lot last year...yeah...it does kind of matter. He can't be making those same mistakes this year....or he won't play much. Murphy has wiggle room. Kempny does not.
- onehundredlevel

When was it said that Kempny was in this factitious doghouse?

Always appreciate the back and forth on our thoughts.

I'm not advocating that he has to play with Schmaltz and DeBrincat, but Kane doesn't need to play with AA. That was my point. AA is borderline a 2C (but more a 3C) and Kane is one of the best offensive wingers in the game. My point was more that Kane has produced without AA and would continue to do so, if they end up on different lines, so that AA can be used more defensively and Kane more offensively.

Kane can play with many different folks and still be effective. IMO, I think Kane is at his best with balanced player who can do a bit of everything. He has played with plenty of "Big" players didn't mesh or had no finish too. I'm not interested in going into an analysis of the size of Kane's linemates or anything like that, but he can play well when playing with other creative players. Panarin-Schmaltz-Kane was an example at the end of last season. They had a different dynamic than Panarin - AA - Kane but the puck still went in the net.

Personally for me, I'm still not buying the hype of the Panarin-AA-Kane line being one of the best around. Sure, they scored some goals (given the golden opportunities in the offensive zone.) but some of it at the expense of opportunities for other lines. Panarin-AA-Kane as a line were mediocre defensively and there were plenty of lines around the league just as lethal who could defend much better. I prefer the 2 way lines that beat you at both ends. I would also feel better if Panarin-AA-Kane as a line had any success scoring in the playoffs. That would have at least been something given that they were the line that was supposed to be able to score and they got shut down almost completely.
- breadbag

Tbf Anisimov was effective in 2015-16 playoffs, Elliott shut them down more than anything else for a while. And he was not fully recovered last year, so I wouldn't hold it against him. Anisimov is an effective 2C and I think he did the pivot work with Panarin-Kane really well. I also think Kane can succeed without that type of center, but I wouldn't load up a line with all the guys that need the puck to be successful.

When it comes to "needing a big guy", I think it's less about Kane specifically and more about who else is on the line as well. Lines are 3 players for a reason and balance is key. Kane's definitely worked with Bickell as his LW, but only with certain centers and situations. So if Kane is with another playmaker, then someone who can do the down-low work can be a key addition (and these guys do tend to be bigger / play bigger). For Panarin-Kane, Anisimov did that well. Versteeg-Richards being good with Kane was somewhat surprising, but they do the east-went cut-in-the-slot play down really well. They cycled into the slot vs just standing in the slot or cycling low. That's how Sharp-Toews-Kane used to play when together - Toews rarely just posted up in front of a goalie then. It's about all 3 players to figure out what works.

Personally, I'm glad I'm not the one making the choice, but I'm happy there seems to be more possibilities in the top 9 this year.

When was it said that Kempny was in this factitious doghouse?
- PatShart

Well, Kempny did get benched and press-boxed a bit last year. There was a span of 5-6 games in which Rozsival played over him and TVR was forced to play his off-side.

Personally, I'm glad I'm not the one making the choice, but I'm happy there seems to be more possibilities in the top 9 this year.
- L_B_R

Amen to that on both accounts. Good place to be in, though, for Hawks management to not only have options but good ones.

Tbf Anisimov was effective in 2015-16 playoffs, Elliott shut them down more than anything else for a while. And he was not fully recovered last year, so I wouldn't hold it against him. Anisimov is an effective 2C and I think he did the pivot work with Panarin-Kane really well. I also think Kane can succeed without that type of center, but I wouldn't load up a line with all the guys that need the puck to be successful.

When it comes to "needing a big guy", I think it's less about Kane specifically and more about who else is on the line as well. Lines are 3 players for a reason and balance is key. Kane's definitely worked with Bickell as his LW, but only with certain centers and situations. So if Kane is with another playmaker, then someone who can do the down-low work can be a key addition (and these guys do tend to be bigger / play bigger). For Panarin-Kane, Anisimov did that well. Versteeg-Richards being good with Kane was somewhat surprising, but they do the east-went cut-in-the-slot play down really well. They cycled into the slot vs just standing in the slot or cycling low. That's how Sharp-Toews-Kane used to play when together - Toews rarely just posted up in front of a goalie then. It's about all 3 players to figure out what works.

Personally, I'm glad I'm not the one making the choice, but I'm happy there seems to be more possibilities in the top 9 this year.
- L_B_R

Personally, I thought AA was only effective after the Panarin-AA-Kane line split up in 2015-16. I'm also glad I'm not making the choices, it isn't an easy job. I'm sure some of it will come down to who starts the season injured and who is healthy.

EK is at it again. Hawks talking to Avs about Matty Duchene??

Personally, I thought AA was only effective after the Panarin-AA-Kane line split up in 2015-16. I'm also glad I'm not making the choices, it isn't an easy job. I'm sure some of it will come down to who starts the season injured and who is healthy.
- breadbag

Yeah, though the break-up was more about spread depth than anything (which is how this whole debate got started lol). Anisimov had some good chemistry with Hossa. I just personally like Anisimov as a player and think he's been more than effective in whatever role/line he's been on over the last two years. If he helps the most by being 3C, cool, though that doesn't take away that he's been good with Kane and could still be with the right LW. Though Hayden-Anisimov-Hartman is intriguing as well ngl. It's a good problem to have when many combination have the potential to work.

Plus, we all know Q is going to blend often lol. We can argue about combos all we want but Q is going to Q.

If Schmaltz does play center, with Kane or not, he will need to hugely improve his faceoffs. Centers can be effective without being even there, but most definitely not at sub-40%.