Sanford is switching his number to 12........should I get a new nameplate to replace Lehtera bcal?
- carcus

You have my full support for this move. Absolutely.

In the immortal words of Mr. Spock, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."


The rest of the Blues' roster thanks Sanford for his sacrifice.

*moment of silence*

You have my full support for this move. Absolutely.

In the immortal words of Mr. Spock, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."


The rest of the Blues' roster thanks Sanford for his sacrifice.

*moment of silence*
- bcallaway

Still might get a new jersey as well.

Still might get a new jersey as well.
- carcus

Might i be so bold as to suggest Chris Thorburn?

The biggest issue I see with Jagr is the time it takes for him to get back when his line loses the puck in the o-zone.

Watching him with the puck is a thing of beauty though.
- Blue Clam

So line shift every time with a forward jumping off from the far side?

Might i be so bold as to suggest Chris Thorburn?
- bcallaway

I could just update my Shatty jersey for that.....

You guys read what is going on with the renovations? Long story short:

Comptroller has refused to sign the financial agreement to issue the bonds to pay for the City's portion of the renovations.

There has also been a lawsuit filed on behalf of Alderman Cara Spencer, former state Rep. Jeanette Oxford and former city counselor James Wilson. The lawsuit alleges that the Missouri Constitution bans spending public money to help boost a private corporation’s profits.

The Blues have already begun on the renovations, and have filed a counter lawsuit since the bonds have not been issued.

Getting pretty messy....

Links to stories and documents related to agreements/lawsuits.

PD story http://www.stltoday.com/n...1d-b7ad-3418bc3b557d.html

PD Editorial taking about the subject http://www.stltoday.com/o...0ef-f3b54d890fd4.amp.html

Agreement between Blues and City https://www.stlouis-mo.go...s/BOAPdf/BB246AA-Pres.pdf

Lawsuit filed against Blues/Agreement https://media.bizj.us/vie.../scottrade-petition-1.pdf

Per the agreement, Projects/Costs for things that the City is funding:


Project Total Cost
New Permafrost and Refrigerant Piping for Rink $6,782,597
Dasher board Glass Replacement $250,000
NCAA Event Locker Room(s) $1,634,899
New West End Loge Boxes $2,674,653
IPTV $3,100,000
New LED Ribbon Board $1,500,000
New Center-Hung Scoreboard $4,100,000
Sound System Upgrades $2,875,000
Hot Water $2,120,333
Reseat Entire Bowl $4,385,896
Repair Retractable Seating $1,500,000
NCAA Press Work Room $637,043
Renovate Event Level Locker Room $2,499,000
New Administrative Offices $2,392,887
Clark St Entry - Neighborhood 1 - Exterior $8,015,820
Clark St Entry - Neighborhood 1 - Concourse $1,584,116
West Entry - Neighborhood 2 $901,539
North - Neighborhood 3 $1,229,526
East Entry - Neighborhood 4 $1,956,781
Entry and Elevator Core $2,595,973
Renovate Restrooms Plaza Level $1,519,816
Renovate Concessions (9 @ $100k ea) $2,009,893
Upgrade Retail Store $197,850
Suite Club / Infill Atrium w/F & B and Retail $4,791,745
South - Neighborhood 1 - Concourse $1,001,991
West - Neighborhood 2 $422,219
North - Neighborhood 3 $864,806
East Entry - Neighborhood 4 / Pepsi Porch $1,314,144
Renovate Restrooms Mezzanine Level $807,662
Renovate Concessions (5 @ $100k ea) $1,183,811
Lighting Upgrades (general) $650,000

$67,500,000

Per the agreement, Projects/Costs for things that the Blues are funding:

Project Total Cost
Preconstruction Services and Surveys $220,465
Improve Access to Sub Zero Club $370,080
Blue Note Club $1,487,500
Blue Note Pub $907,379
Family Entertainment Hospitality Room $198,814
Equipment Storage $246,100
Hall of Fame Plaza and Pavers $174,031
New Ticket Office $200,884
Lighting Upgrades (general) $411,850
Peabody Connection $347,899
Peabody Event Space $481,500
Epoxy Resin Floor $976,222
Carpet, Paint and Lighting Suite Level $711,903
Opera Boxes/Renovate Suites $515,571
Renovate Suites (Assume 50) $3,529,568
Renovate Restrooms $518,040
Epoxy Resin Floor $590,562
Radio Broadcast, Press Box, NHL Room $1,026,375
Rafters Club $1,785,000
New Building Signage/LED $1,845,750
New Sports Lighting $642,000
Television Distribution System $1,236,653
Bowl Curtain $535,000
Arena Sound Attenuation $374,500
Hot Water Phase II $1,621,445
Chilled Water (Chillers, Chilled Water Pumps, Controls) $6,555,736
AHU Replacement $9,186,817
Plumbing Infrastructure $816,797
Mechanical OT Allowance $963,000
Mechanical Project Contingency $1,197,621
Roof Replacement $5,350,000
Rebuild Elevators & Escalators $6,404,637
Security Upgrades $2,190,777
Concession & Commissary Kitchen Equipment $744,292
Exterior Building Lights $1,016,500
New Wayfinding $1,605,000
New Monitors Throughout $2,236,300

$59,222,566

Without reading all of those articles I am pretty sure they had the go ahead from the city council before starting the remodel

So is this some bureaucrat trying to win reelection by saying she was opposed to this?

Its an older building it needs renovations to stay modern

The blues should be footing more of the bill but they got the approval from the city so not sure what the big deal is

The situation is akin to that of a woman who owns land, who leases full use of her land to a family for 50 years, retaining only bare legal title. The family builds a big house, then halfway through the lease complains that she should buy them a big-screen TV and swimming pool for their house simply because she is the “owner.”

This is an excerpt from the lawsuit against the Blues, word for word.

Without reading all of those articles I am pretty sure they had the go ahead from the city council before starting the remodel

So is this some bureaucrat trying to win reelection by saying she was opposed to this?

Its an older building it needs renovations to stay modern

The blues should be footing more of the bill but they got the approval from the city so not sure what the big deal is
- sycsam

Yes, they did. They went through the process required to get city funding, and the Comptroller has basically decided to veto the deal, even though she has no authority to do so, by not signing and issuing the bonds.

Yes, they did. They went through the process required to get city funding, and the Comptroller has basically decided to veto the deal, even though she has no authority to do so, by not signing and issuing the bonds.
- carcus

i read the PD article and the editorial, not the actual agreement or lawsuit.

It does seem messy from both sides, doesn't it?

The revenues the city collects in sales tax doesn't scratch the surface to what they're being asked to pay for, especially considering the Blues pay $1 a year in rent.

It makes it sound like the Board of Alderman approved the spending because they believed the city was obligated to legally, but at some point shouldn't someone have looked at the price tag and raised a hand?

I'm not one of those folks who believes a city has an obligation to fund sports venues, so i'm shocked to say I don't fault Darlene Green for hitting the pause button.

The real issue is how did it get this far along in the process?

i read the PD article and the editorial, not the actual agreement or lawsuit.

It does seem messy from both sides, doesn't it?

The revenues the city collects in sales tax doesn't scratch the surface to what they're being asked to pay for, especially considering the Blues pay $1 a year in rent.

It makes it sound like the Board of Alderman approved the spending because they believed the city was obligated to legally, but at some point shouldn't someone have looked at the price tag and raised a hand?

I'm not one of those folks who believes a city has an obligation to fund sports venues, so i'm shocked to say I don't fault Darlene Green for hitting the pause button.

The real issue is how did it get this far along in the process?
- bcallaway

i THINK IF THE BUILDING IS PRIVATELY OWNED THEY SHOULD PAY FOR MOST IF NOT ALL RENOVATIONS BUT THE CITY OWNS STC RIGHT?

IF THE CITY OWNS THE BUILDING THEY SHOULD FOOT THE BILL.

i THINK IF THE BUILDING IS PRIVATELY OWNED THEY SHOULD PAY FOR MOST IF NOT ALL RENOVATIONS BUT THE CITY OWNS STC RIGHT?

IF THE CITY OWNS THE BUILDING THEY SHOULD FOOT THE BILL.
- sycsam

The lawsuit is trying to say that the building is owned by the Blues, not the City.

But that actually isn't the case. Yes, their long term lease with the Blues only brings in the city $1 per year in base rent. As an Accountant in the commercial real estate business, I found that pretty amusing. This was done because of the entertainment tax that is collected. So instead of just getting a flat amount each year, they incentivized the lease to make the Blues want to bring in as much as possible outside revenue from concerts/tournaments/etc. This, in turn, also brings in more revenue to the City. It's a win/win relationship as long as the Blues management can keep bringing events besides St Louis Hockey to the STC. So instead of the City being responsible for trying to get events into the STC, they have given that duty to the Blues and given them basically free rent, and the revenue is tied to ticket sales for all events held.

But that doesn't mean that the Blues own the building. At the end of their 50 year LEASE, the building goes back to full control of the city of St Louis. That tells you who the owner is.

The Blues, during their lease, are responsible to make updates as they see fit. But they also don't have to make any. Or they could keep up sufficient to play hockey games, and ignore things that would bring in other events. They reached out to the owner, proposing to jointly pay for needed repairs/upkeep, so that the CITY'S building would stay viable long term. Not just for the Blues, but for all kind of events that we want here.

There is nothing wrong with this deal IMO. And the Comptroller doesn't have the power to just veto the accepted agreement. In the end, this is a terrible way to treat one of your biggest partners.

The lawsuit is trying to say that the building is owned by the Blues, not the City.

But that actually isn't the case. Yes, their long term lease with the Blues only brings in the city $1 per year in base rent. As an Accountant in the commercial real estate business, I found that pretty amusing. This was done because of the entertainment tax that is collected. So instead of just getting a flat amount each year, they incentivized the lease to make the Blues want to bring in as much as possible outside revenue from concerts/tournaments/etc. This, in turn, also brings in more revenue to the City. It's a win/win relationship as long as the Blues management can keep bringing events besides St Louis Hockey to the STC. So instead of the City being responsible for trying to get events into the STC, they have given that duty to the Blues and given them basically free rent, and the revenue is tied to ticket sales for all events held.

But that doesn't mean that the Blues own the building. At the end of their 50 year LEASE, the building goes back to full control of the city of St Louis. That tells you who the owner is.

The Blues, during their lease, are responsible to make updates as they see fit. But they also don't have to make any. Or they could keep up sufficient to play hockey games, and ignore things that would bring in other events. They reached out to the owner, proposing to jointly pay for needed repairs/upkeep, so that the CITY'S building would stay viable long term. Not just for the Blues, but for all kind of events that we want here.

There is nothing wrong with this deal IMO. And the Comptroller doesn't have the power to just veto the accepted agreement. In the end, this is a terrible way to treat one of your biggest partners.
- carcus

Riddle me this, though, since you know more about how this works - I'm reading the cost of all of these upgrades, versus what the city receives in revenues anually.

How does that make this a viable deal for the city? How many years of tax revenue would it take to pay off the amount they're being asked to pony up for these upgrades.

It also doesn't seem to make sense for the city to own this building. Should they not sell it back to the Blues?

Riddle me this, though, since you know more about how this works - I'm reading the cost of all of these upgrades, versus what the city receives in revenues anually.

How does that make this a viable deal for the city? How many years of tax revenue would it take to pay off the amount they're being asked to pony up for these upgrades.

It also doesn't seem to make sense for the city to own this building. Should they not sell it back to the Blues?
- bcallaway

How much do they receive annually? I haven't seen this. I could probably try and estimate it....

How much do they receive annually? I haven't seen this. I could probably try and estimate it....
- carcus

One if the articles said roughly in the $3M range annually in tax revenue. Both sides have different numbers, but it was in that ballpark.

One if the articles said roughly in the $3M range annually in tax revenue. Both sides have different numbers, but it was in that ballpark.
- bcallaway

I like when the teams own their buildings and if the blues were to get control of STC back than they should foot the bill.

I think the blues and Stillman are being pretty fair in this deal. Pretty much a 50-50 split

The city doesn't like having sports franchises not named the cardinals.

STC needed an upgrade

When I was there in December was it the worst building I have ever been in no but than a month later I went to boston and it is night and day different

One if the articles said roughly in the $3M range annually in tax revenue. Both sides have different numbers, but it was in that ballpark.
- bcallaway

I don't know how much they bring in, but $3M seems low. They get payroll tax, sales tax, and amusement tax. Payroll tax is 1% of salary, so assume $70M average salaries and they get $700k from that (opposing players and home players pay the city of St. Louis for the games they play here). Amusement tax is 5%, assume $100 average ticket price for 41 games with 19,000 seats and that is roughly $4M in entertainment tax.

On top of those, they get sales tax on concession and team store items which I don't know enough to estimate. I'm not sure if there is a sales tax on the tickets as well or if it's only amusement tax.

Additionally, any other events held at Scottrade directly contribute tax dollars, again I wouldn't be able to estimate those.

I don't know how much they bring in, but $3M seems low. They get payroll tax, sales tax, and amusement tax. Payroll tax is 1% of salary, so assume $70M average salaries and they get $700k from that (opposing players and home players pay the city of St. Louis for the games they play here). Amusement tax is 5%, assume $100 average ticket price for 41 games with 19,000 seats and that is roughly $4M in entertainment tax.

On top of those, they get sales tax on concession and team store items which I don't know enough to estimate. I'm not sure if there is a sales tax on the tickets as well or if it's only amusement tax.

Additionally, any other events held at Scottrade directly contribute tax dollars, again I wouldn't be able to estimate those.
- Jackman

They also own the parking garage and get 100% of the revenues from that.

The $3M figure is really low, even if they were only talking about amusement tax. Which I believe is collected on all ticket sales, not just Blues games. So every concert/sporting event/etc they collect.

And the Peabody is part of the deal as well, right? Entertainment tax on that too.

They also own the parking garage and get 100% of the revenues from that.

The $3M figure is really low, even if they were only talking about amusement tax. Which I believe is collected on all ticket sales, not just Blues games. So every concert/sporting event/etc they collect.

And the Peabody is part of the deal as well, right? Entertainment tax on that too.
- carcus

I think the city is being really cheap but what else is new with the city of St Louis.

If it doesn't benefit the cardinals it seems its not a priority

Around $3M is probably pretty accurate if they are talking about just the entertainment tax on the St Louis Blues games.

It is taxed on 5% of revenues of $50M and below, and 4% of the next $50, and it continues to get a smaller percentage.

If you take the example of $100/ticket, 19k tickets, 41 home games, you have around $80M in revenue. $50M x 0.05 = $2.5M, $30M x 0.04 = 1.2M. So $80M would bring in $3.7M in revenue

That would be just regular season, no playoff games. Not taking into account other events at the STC either.

The city stating they get less than $3M in entertainment tax from the STC is complete BS.

The Blues stated that they are sending in $6M+/year in that article. That falls much more in line with reality when you include the other events at the STC.

Did you guys see that Jeremy Rutherford is leaving the Post Dispatch? That was announced last week, and today they announced that Jim Thomas is going to replace him. (been with the Post for a long time, covering the Rams)

Wasn't a huge fan of JR, but he did a few good things that I appreciated. His chats were usually pretty good, sometimes getting players/management to participate. Not sure about Jim. He was really good with football, not sure if he really knows hockey. I do think he will work hard and try to give good info.

Speculation that JR is going to join The Athletic. Russo that covered the Wild (and also friends with JR) announced he is leaving his paper as well.

I have heard good things about The Athletic. They have had a few big names join. Not sure if the content will be worth the cost or not though.....

Did you guys see that Jeremy Rutherford is leaving the Post Dispatch? That was announced last week, and today they announced that Jim Thomas is going to replace him. (been with the Post for a long time, covering the Rams)

Wasn't a huge fan of JR, but he did a few good things that I appreciated. His chats were usually pretty good, sometimes getting players/management to participate. Not sure about Jim. He was really good with football, not sure if he really knows hockey. I do think he will work hard and try to give good info.

Speculation that JR is going to join The Athletic. Russo that covered the Wild (and also friends with JR) announced he is leaving his paper as well.

I have heard good things about The Athletic. They have had a few big names join. Not sure if the content will be worth the cost or not though.....
- carcus

I didn't see that

That is unfortunate hopefully he does well in whatever he chooses to do

Did you guys see that Jeremy Rutherford is leaving the Post Dispatch? That was announced last week, and today they announced that Jim Thomas is going to replace him. (been with the Post for a long time, covering the Rams)

Wasn't a huge fan of JR, but he did a few good things that I appreciated. His chats were usually pretty good, sometimes getting players/management to participate. Not sure about Jim. He was really good with football, not sure if he really knows hockey. I do think he will work hard and try to give good info.

Speculation that JR is going to join The Athletic. Russo that covered the Wild (and also friends with JR) announced he is leaving his paper as well.

I have heard good things about The Athletic. They have had a few big names join. Not sure if the content will be worth the cost or not though.....
- carcus

i saw that last week as well.

I'm pretty ambivalent about JR. He was adequate. Didn't love him, didn't hate him.

i don't know how much Jim Thomas likes or knows hockey. I was kind of surprised by this. I more expected him to move to a city and paper that has NFL because he was such a natural at covering the Rams.

I always thought he did an outstanding job of covering the Rams and the NFL. If he brings the same to hockey, this will be an improvement.