How? Sheary dropping off produced at the same rate as Hornqvist not dropping off. Hornqvist had 9 points this playoffs. Sheary had 7 points. Seems to be a good comparison to me. Especially since Horny had 30 minutes of PP time with Sid/Geno/Kessel. Being a top PP guy, that's (frank)ing awful production. I'd expect more than 9 measly points from him. - j.boyd919
5 goals 9 points in 19 games, and we know he was dealing with a serious injury by the end when his production tailed off. But even so that's a 20 goal, almmost 40 point pace, perfectly acceptable for a guy who while getting top PP time was a bottom 6, and in lone with his regular season totals.
Sheary 2 goals 7 points in 22 games. That's less than a ten goal and roughly 25 point pace. He also received morr top 6 time then Hornqvist. That's a very steep drop from his regular season.
This is just a bad comparison. You also now decided to throw out the previous year which is what I quoted where Hornqvist had 9 goals. His 2 year total is 14 goals and 22 points in 43 games, very reasonable production. I'll take that from a supporting scorer any day.
5 goals 9 points in 19 games, and we know he was dealing with a serious injury by the end when his production tailed off. But even so that's a 20 goal, almmost 40 point pace, perfectly acceptable for a guy who while getting top PP time was a bottom 6, and in lone with his regular season totals.
Sheary 2 goals 7 points in 22 games. That's less than a ten goal and roughly 25 point pace. He also received morr top 6 time then Hornqvist. That's a very steep drop from his regular season.
This is just a bad comparison. You also now decided to throw out the previous year which is what I quoted where Hornqvist had 9 goals. His 2 year total is 14 goals and 22 points in 43 games, very reasonable production. I'll take that from a supporting scorer any day. - Tojo.
Yep, and I'll take 17 points in 45 games any day from a player that gets no PP1 time. That's solid support scoring as well. Especially for not getting any PP time. You take away Horny's 5 PP points in the playoffs, and take away Sheary's 1 PP point and you have 17 points in 43 games. Where Sheary had 16 points in 45 games.
pretty much the same production at even strength, but Horny gets a pass because he's gifted 30+ minutes per playoffs of PP1 time with Sid/Geno/etc. and brings the things that "can't be seen on the score sheet." hahahaahahah
Location: ...serial abuser...and misuser...of the ellipsis , NF Joined: 12.12.2014
Jul 27 @ 10:20 AM ET
How? Sheary dropping off produced at the same rate as Hornqvist not dropping off. Hornqvist had 9 points this playoffs. Sheary had 7 points. Seems to be a good comparison to me. Especially since Horny had 30 minutes of PP time with Sid/Geno/Kessel. Being a top PP guy, that's (frank)ing awful production. I'd expect more than 9 measly points from him. - j.boyd919
Location: Stockholm - "Nights when we don't have our A-game, we better have our A-commitment & A-effort." Joined: 09.25.2014
Jul 27 @ 10:33 AM ET
I find this a bit exciting...I hope the Pens snag him. This is what the Pens need in their system. Is he a righty or a lefty?...I know, I know.. i could google it but wheres the fun in that? - MattStrat
Yep, and I'll take 17 points in 45 games any day from a player that gets no PP1 time. That's solid support scoring as well. Especially for not getting any PP time. You take away Horny's 5 PP points in the playoffs, and take away Sheary's 1 PP point and you have 17 points in 43 games. Where Sheary had 16 points in 45 games.
pretty much the same production at even strength, but Horny gets a pass because he's gifted 30+ minutes per playoffs of PP1 time with Sid/Geno/etc. and brings the things that "can't be seen on the score sheet." hahahaahahah - j.boyd919
Sheary's playoff pace pver an 82 game season is 11 goals 31 points (both years)
Hornqvist's is 27 goals 42 points.
Those aren't equal, especially the goals.
What does PP production matter? Sheary scored fine without it. If we take out PP production, Phil Kessel was a 15 goal, 40 point player we paid 6.8M for. I'm sure if Hornqvist got as much tume wuth Crosby as Sheary did that would improve his numbers, but I'm not bringing that up because it's irrelevant. One guy kept up his play and the other didn't.
Sheary did play like a top 6 after his scratch, but beforw that 3 assists in 15 games. That's why he gets buried here and rightly so for his playoffs. Hey, Hainsey's numbers were good in the finals too, but that doesn't neglect the 1st 3 rounds.
Location: ...serial abuser...and misuser...of the ellipsis , NF Joined: 12.12.2014
Jul 27 @ 11:09 AM ET
Yeah but he played. So I don't buy that as an excuse. - j.boyd919
Oh come on man..thats a ridiculous statement. His legs were like pulp from all the shot blocking and his fingers were tapped together on his right hand. He played 19 out of 25 playoff games. He was battered and bruised.
On top of the physical limitations of playing with injuries there is the whole mental aspect of it. It can change the way a player thinks on the ice. They might hesitate or make a bad decision because of an injury, or just returning from an injury, and in a sport thats so fast and split second decisions are required often, it can greatly effect their on the ice product.
Sheary's playoff pace pver an 82 game season is 11 goals 31 points (both years)
Hornqvist's is 27 goals 42 points.
Those aren't equal, especially the goals.
What does PP production matter? Sheary scored fine without it. If we take out PP production, Phil Kessel was a 15 goal, 40 point player we paid 6.8M for. I'm sure if Hornqvist got as much tume wuth Crosby as Sheary did that would improve his numbers, but I'm not bringing that up because it's irrelevant. One guy kept up his play and the other didn't.
Sheary did play like a top 6 after his scratch, but beforw that 3 assists in 15 games. That's why he gets buried here and rightly so for his playoffs. Hey, Hainsey's numbers were good in the finals too, but that doesn't neglect the 1st 3 rounds. - Tojo.
I'm bringing up PP production because it matters. When comparing production, I am going to evaluate everything (situations deployed, linemates, etc.) And the fact that Horny at 30 minutes+ per playoffs of 5v4 time and Sheary did not should absolutely be noted when comparing players. Kessel's numbers ARE irrelevant to this conversation because we aren't comparing Kessel to Horny or Sheary. But when comparing the 2 (Sheary/Horny), PP time is absolutely relevant to the discussion and comparison.
In the past 2 playoffs...
Sheary - 404 minutes with Sid at 5v5
Horny - 368 minutes with Sid at 5v5 (also played 2 less games)
So their time with Sid was pretty similar over the course of 2 playoffs.
I'm not saying Horny sucks, or Sheary is great, I'm saying that they produce pretty (frank)in similarly at 5v5, so Sheary shouldn't be getting the flack that he gets, if Horny doesn't.
In his limited time this playoffs with Sid (57 min) Horny had a SCF% of 37.5% (21 for, 35 against.).
In Sheary's time with Sid (169 min), he was 51.5% (87 for, 82 against).
Again, Sheary was fine. Hornqvist was fine. They both produce at the same level at ES. And that is not a bad thing.
Oh come on man..thats a ridiculous statement. His legs were like pulp from all the shot blocking and his fingers were tapped together on his right hand. He played 19 out of 25 playoff games. He was battered and bruised.
On top of the physical limitations of playing with injuries there is the whole mental aspect of it. It can change the way a player thinks on the ice. They might hesitate or make a bad decision because of an injury, or just returning from an injury, and in a sport thats so fast and split second decisions are required often, it can greatly effect their on the ice product. - MattStrat
Then he shouldn't have been playing. If you're healthy enough to be on the ice, I'm gonna judge you just like I would any other player.
I'm bringing up PP production because it matters. When comparing production, I am going to evaluate everything (situations deployed, linemates, etc.) And the fact that Horny at 30 minutes+ per playoffs of 5v4 time and Sheary did not should absolutely be noted when comparing players. Kessel's numbers ARE irrelevant to this conversation because we aren't comparing Kessel to Horny or Sheary. But when comparing the 2 (Sheary/Horny), PP time is absolutely relevant to the discussion and comparison.
In the past 2 playoffs...
Sheary - 404 minutes with Sid at 5v5
Horny - 368 minutes with Sid at 5v5 (also played 2 less games)
So their time with Sid was pretty similar over the course of 2 playoffs.
I'm not saying Horny sucks, or Sheary is great, I'm saying that they produce pretty (frank)in similarly at 5v5, so Sheary shouldn't be getting the flack that he gets, if Horny doesn't.
In his limited time this playoffs with Sid (57 min) Horny had a SCF% of 37.5% (21 for, 35 against.).
In Sheary's time with Sid (169 min), he was 51.5% (87 for, 82 against).
Again, Sheary was fine. Hornqvist was fine. They both produce at the same level at ES. And that is not a bad thing. - j.boyd919
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. PP has always been part of the package I use to evaluate Hornqvist. He's a decent but not great ES scorer, but that's pretty much always been the case.
Sheary earned his praise for being an absolute beast at ES this year. But it didn't carry over except for a strong finals. He's never going to be a top PP guy here so he'll need to produce more at even strength which again he was fantastic at during the regular season. But he slipped badly in the playoffs from what he had been doing. He just needs to show he can carry that production over. Thus far he hasn't, but I'm willing to put him right back on the top line to see if he can.
I'm bringing up PP production because it matters. When comparing production, I am going to evaluate everything (situations deployed, linemates, etc.) And the fact that Horny at 30 minutes+ per playoffs of 5v4 time and Sheary did not should absolutely be noted when comparing players. Kessel's numbers ARE irrelevant to this conversation because we aren't comparing Kessel to Horny or Sheary. But when comparing the 2 (Sheary/Horny), PP time is absolutely relevant to the discussion and comparison.
In the past 2 playoffs...
Sheary - 404 minutes with Sid at 5v5
Horny - 368 minutes with Sid at 5v5 (also played 2 less games)
So their time with Sid was pretty similar over the course of 2 playoffs.
I'm not saying Horny sucks, or Sheary is great, I'm saying that they produce pretty (frank)in similarly at 5v5, so Sheary shouldn't be getting the flack that he gets, if Horny doesn't.
In his limited time this playoffs with Sid (57 min) Horny had a SCF% of 37.5% (21 for, 35 against.).
In Sheary's time with Sid (169 min), he was 51.5% (87 for, 82 against).
Again, Sheary was fine. Hornqvist was fine. They both produce at the same level at ES. And that is not a bad thing. - j.boyd919
One thing you are completely ignoring though is the role that they fill. Hornqvist is one of the better net front presence guys in the league and thus why he has a spot on the power-play and Sheary does not. If you are going to heavily factor in the PP you should also add in why one is on the PP1 and the other isn't. Lose Hornqvist the Pens don't have another reliable net front presence. Lose Sheary, the Pens have other scoring wingers. That has to be part of the discussion.
One thing you are completely ignoring though is the role that they fill. Hornqvist is one of the better net front presence guys in the league and thus why he has a spot on the power-play and Sheary does not. If you are going to heavily factor in the PP you should also add in why one is on the PP1 and the other isn't. Lose Hornqvist the Pens don't have another reliable net front presence. Lose Sheary, the Pens have other scoring wingers. That has to be part of the discussion. - PensFan1103
Maybe if he adds some bulk. I don't like the idea of him taking the abuse Hornqvist takes at his current frame. - PensFan1103
Agree and disagree. He can't do what hornqvist does, but he can do net front in his own way. He's good at sneaking in and finding spots. He can't just post up and plow his way to the net. Guentzel did make some plays in front of the nets. Better hands too so he can actually shoot when in close and not just try to force it in. Different ways of doing things. If Guentzel tried to do it like hornqvist he would spend 70 games a year on the injured list.
