Couter is best served as the teams third line center. He has proven for years now that he lacks confidence on the pp, that he is injury prone, that he is relatively soft like butter and his big body is just a big body unlike for example a Nick Cousins who played big and played in your face Flyer hockey for a smaller man. Despite saying I hope that maybe a miracle occurs and Couter can show the offence he showed in junior. People forget that the Flyers had a 10 game win streak when he was out and when he came back they lost almost 10 straight. Not saying directly it was his fault but kind of a weird stat. I would much rather have traded him and kept Schenn.

Couter is best served as the teams third line center. He has proven for years now that he lacks confidence on the pp, that he is injury prone, that he is relatively soft like butter and his big body is just a big body unlike for example a Nick Cousins who played big and played in your face Flyer hockey for a smaller man. Despite saying I hope that maybe a miracle occurs and Couter can show the offence he showed in junior. People forget that the Flyers had a 10 game win streak when he was out and when he came back they lost almost 10 straight. Not saying directly it was his fault but kind of a weird stat. I would much rather have traded him and kept Schenn.
- joegreif17

I disagree with you completely. Couturier is anything but soft. He is physical and is hard on the puck in puck battles and play along the wall. The players that play against him will tell you that. Couturier is a more important player to the Flyers than Schenn was.

I'd be fine with this. He should be the team's leader in SH minutes and also the top center in ES minutes. They have other guys that can play on the pp. If he plays with Weal and Simmonds for most of the season and plays say 75 games and only sees occasional spot duty on the pp, I see no reason why he can't finish with 40-42 points.
- BiggE

I agree that his usage should be 3C and penalty kill and leave him off the pp as the Flyers have much more skilled players for that. Six full seasons tell me he is not going to break out anytime soon offensively. My biggest issue with him is that for a big guy they do not come more fragile and play that soft. He hits like a 98 pounder!

Imho Coots defensive prowess is elite. If he would be lined up with skilled wingers for an extended amount of time, his offensive numbers would improve to north of 40 pts. A guy who can shut down the other teams top line and score at a decent clip at ES is an important piece to have on the team. So yeah, he's a good player.
- riverfly

It's not like they never tried. They put him with jake for awhile. It was a disaster. Coots is what he is. A damn good 3C. No reason to reinvent the wheel. He can't keep up with top skill players in this league. 1C he is not I don't care about his possession.

I disagree with you completely. Couturier is anything but soft. He is physical and is hard on the puck in puck battles and play along the wall. The players that play against him will tell you that. Couturier is a more important player to the Flyers than Schenn was.
- MJL

I think what you are saying is that he is great at stick checking and breaking up plays and his large wing span allows him to be a great checker and a very reliable defensive forward and I agree with all this.
I say he is soft when it come to taking the body, I say he is baffled and lacks total confidence when on the pp, I say he is fragile and has missed closed to 80 games in 6 seasons. Hey I just wish they would use him at what he is good at, 3C and defensive situations. Leave the pp to the skilled players and keep him off the top six.

It's not like they never tried. They put him with jake for awhile. It was a disaster. Coots is what he is. A damn good 3C. No reason to reinvent the wheel. He can't keep up with top skill players in this league. 1C he is not I don't care about his possession.
- Just5

Exactly Just5, this is what I have been trying to say. It is so true! Why not leave him at the 3C role and have one of the best 3C centers in the league. Letting him think he is an offensive player is a mistake and Hakstol seems to think he belongs on the pp. He does not in my opinion.

It's not like they never tried. They put him with jake for awhile. It was a disaster. Coots is what he is. A damn good 3C. No reason to reinvent the wheel. He can't keep up with top skill players in this league. 1C he is not I don't care about his possession.
- Just5

What a load of horse poop. Then another load dumped on top. Jake does better with Couturier than Giroux. Their stats together are great, as is everyone's on the team with Couturier. Everyone does better with him. There are actual stats for that -- not just what you "feel" sounds right. No, not just possession stats. Actual scoring: goals, points. Oh I forgot: there was 1 more load dumped on top of the load dumped on top. You don't care about possession, but I guess you don't care about points or outscoring opposition either. So what do you care about?

Couturier already scores at low end 1C numbers at ES. Certainly our 1C. High end 2C scoring at worst, though yes his advanced stats are elite. People can't wrap their heads around the fact that Couturier is a 1C at ES because that takes more brain power than looking at hockeydb and believing in generic labels. Giroux scored at 4C levels last year at ES, but his overall scoring was low end 1C. You can divide different parts of the game up. He's been on pace for 45-50+ the last 2 seasons. Those are strong 2C numbers (to use the generic label) -- besides everything else he brings --
and he doesn't score much on the PP at the moment. We'll see if he can score more there on a better unit, slotted in a better role like in front of the net. I'd say that's likely.

I think what you are saying is that he is great at stick checking and breaking up plays and his large wing span allows him to be a great checker and a very reliable defensive forward and I agree with all this.
I say he is soft when it come to taking the body, I say he is baffled and lacks total confidence when on the pp, I say he is fragile and has missed closed to 80 games in 6 seasons. Hey I just wish they would use him at what he is good at, 3C and defensive situations. Leave the pp to the skilled players and keep him off the top six.
- joegreif17

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I think you're wrong and that Couturier is a very physical player who is very strong on the puck in puck battles. Couturier is one of the top ES players on the team which is why his ES ice time is among the highest on the team. He is more than just a 3rd line checking defensive center.

Yup.

Coots is never going to be "the guy". He doesn't have the offensive mojo to be centering a top line. However, his possession numbers and 2nd tier offense, on top of his defensive prowess, show me he tops out as a 2nd liner that every postseason team would envy. The guy is a player.

With Patrick in the mix, it takes the offensive pressure off him a little more, while creating match up problems for the other team playing against our 2nd and 3rd lines (well...and first too). This is the kind of impact Patrick will have and imo the most important one unless he puts up 55+ pts. Then it'll be the second most important

Point is the addition of Patrick gives us 3 competent lines, and I think we'll all see how much of a boon that will be to the offense of the team. We all have seen how (frank)ing frustrating it is to see Giroux's line shut down because the other team doesn't have to really worry about Coots surrounded by two 3rd/borderline 4th line wingers playing on the 2nd line. Enter Patrick, Lindblom, and add some puck movers to the back end and suddenly you're looking at a playoff team.
- Giroux_Is_God

Well, I like us at center more than anywhere else. I still think we're very uneven at wing and might be too young at defense (notice how I said might be). I'm not sold on us in net but this is why you play the games.

What a load of horse poop. Then another load dumped on top. Jake does better with Couturier than Giroux. Their stats together are great, as is everyone's on the team with Couturier. Everyone does better with him. No, not just possession stats. Actual scoring: goals, points. Oh I forgot: there was 1 more load dumped on top of the load dumped on top. You don't care about possession, but I guess you don't care about points or outscoring opposition either. So what do you care about?

Couturier already scores at low end 1C numbers at ES. Certainly our 1C. High end 2C scoring at worst, though yes his advanced stats are elite. People can't wrap their heads around the fact that Couturier is a 1C at ES because that takes more brain power than looking at hockeydb and believing in generic labels. Giroux scored at 4C levels last year at ES, but his overall scoring was low end 1C. You can divide different parts of the game up. He's been on pace for 45-50+ the last 2 seasons. Those are 2C numbers, and he doesn't score much on the PP. We'll see if he can score more there on a better unit, slotted in a better role in front of the net perhaps. I'd say that's likely.
- Mononoke

You basically make the argument that all factors have to be considered when looking at Couturier, then make the mistake of labeling Couturier a 1C at ES. He is not. Couturier is a solid 2nd line center in this league, and he is not a 1C at any strength. I'll avoid the hyperbole you used.

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I think you're wrong and that Couturier is a very physical player who is very strong on the puck in puck battles. Couturier is one of the top ES players on the team which is why his ES ice time is among the highest on the team. He is more than just a 3rd line checking defensive center.
- MJL

I don't think Coots is soft but I don't think he's the physical presence Simmonds or Gudas are. I thought Schenn was a more physical player than Coots. I'm not concerned with physicality though. I expect Patrick and Morin to add some jam.

You basically make the argument that all factors have to be considered when looking at Couturier, then make the mistake of labeling Couturier a 1C at ES. He is not. Couturier is a solid 2nd line center in this league, and he is not a 1C at any strength. I'll avoid the hyperbole you used.
- MJL

He scores at the rate of a high end 2C/low end 1C. His other stats at ES are well at the 1C level.

Over the last 2 years combined, his 5v5 scoring rate is ~15th among players I'd call full time centers (>1500 minutes played). What is that then? 30 teams, 30 top line ES centers. These are called: facts.

💩

What a load of horse poop. Then another load dumped on top. Jake does better with Couturier than Giroux. Their stats together are great, as is everyone's on the team with Couturier. Everyone does better with him. There are actual stats for that -- not just what you "feel" sounds right. No, not just possession stats. Actual scoring: goals, points. Oh I forgot: there was 1 more load dumped on top of the load dumped on top. You don't care about possession, but I guess you don't care about points or outscoring opposition either. So what do you care about?

Couturier already scores at low end 1C numbers at ES. Certainly our 1C. High end 2C scoring at worst, though yes his advanced stats are elite. People can't wrap their heads around the fact that Couturier is a 1C at ES because that takes more brain power than looking at hockeydb and believing in generic labels. Giroux scored at 4C levels last year at ES, but his overall scoring was low end 1C. You can divide different parts of the game up. He's been on pace for 45-50+ the last 2 seasons. Those are strong 2C numbers (to use the generic label) -- besides everything else he brings --
and he doesn't score much on the PP at the moment. We'll see if he can score more there on a better unit, slotted in a better role like in front of the net. I'd say that's likely.
- Mononoke

For the record I am a huge Flyers fan and have Giroux, Voracek, Konecny, Provorov, Couturier, Elliott, Neuvirth, Simmonds, had Schenn and Cousings as well in my keeper league that started 38 years ago. I traded and drafted to have these guys because the Flyers are my team. At the last two summer drafts I a have tried to balance my team and trade off some of my Flyers. Well I can tell you that in an elite league with brilliant hockey minds I was unable to make any deals other than offers for Konecny and Provorov who I will not trade. Giroux has no value, the best I can get for him is J. Toews and not interested. Until all these guys bounce back and have great years nobody wants them. I sure hope they bounce back but I seriously have my doubts with the two "H" guys running the team. Hakstol will not survive next season unless Elliot and Neuvy stand on their heads.

Ok. This was fun.

He scores at the rate of a high end 2C/low end 1C. His other stats at ES are well at the 1C level.

Over the last 2 years combined, his 5v5 scoring rate is ~15th among players I'd call full time centers (>1500 minutes played). What is that then? 30 teams, 30 top line ES centers. These are called: facts.

💩
- Mononoke

Do you think a team could win a cup with 14 a their #1 center?

Couter is best served as the teams third line center. He has proven for years now that he lacks confidence on the pp, that he is injury prone, that he is relatively soft like butter and his big body is just a big body unlike for example a Nick Cousins who played big and played in your face Flyer hockey for a smaller man. Despite saying I hope that maybe a miracle occurs and Couter can show the offence he showed in junior. People forget that the Flyers had a 10 game win streak when he was out and when he came back they lost almost 10 straight. Not saying directly it was his fault but kind of a weird stat. I would much rather have traded him and kept Schenn.
- joegreif17

Soft as butter hahahah, you're an idiot

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I think you're wrong and that Couturier is a very physical player who is very strong on the puck in puck battles. Couturier is one of the top ES players on the team which is why his ES ice time is among the highest on the team. He is more than just a 3rd line checking defensive center.
- MJL

Well I guess we disagree on Couter but that is okay. I would be thrilled if I was wrong as winning hockey games is all that matters. If Couter emerges as a solid 2C with 55 points or better and stays healthy I would be first to admit I was wrong. I still say it is not happening ever with him and I know that you will remind next year if it happens

Do you think a team could win a cup with 14 a their #1 center?
- rinaldo

Exactly, never even make the playoffs with him a 1C

Soft as butter hahahah, you're an idiot
- HOWSMYDICTATE

I just flagged you for your name calling. I got suspended for way less so if the moderator is playing fairly you are toast buddy.

He scores at the rate of a high end 2C/low end 1C. His other stats at ES are well at the 1C level.

Over the last 2 years combined, his 5v5 scoring rate is ~15th among players I'd call full time centers (>1500 minutes played). What is that then? 30 teams, 30 top line ES centers. These are called: facts.

💩
- Mononoke

Couturier is not a first line center in this league. This is what sets the Couturier detractors off. I'd speculate that there is not a single NHL GM that would consider Couturier a first line center or that would choose to build a team around Couturier as their first line center. He is a solid 2nd line center at ES in this league who can provide solid support offense while playing against top lines. He is absolutely a valuable player for this team.

You know it's funny, before the Flyers won the 2nd overall pick in the lottery, a very frequent topic of conversation on this forum was how are the Flyers going to get a first line center for the future to replace the aging Giroux. Who knew that he was on the team all along!

Soft as butter hahahah, you're an idiot
- HOWSMYDICTATE

It is obvious you never played the game!

Well I guess we disagree on Couter but that is okay. I would be thrilled if I was wrong as winning hockey games is all that matters. If Couter emerges as a solid 2C with 55 points or better and stays healthy I would be first to admit I was wrong. I still say it is not happening ever with him and I know that you will remind next year if it happens
- joegreif17

55 points or better is heading towards first line center production. Couturier is a horse to play against and is very tough on the puck physically.

I just flagged you for your name calling. I got suspended for way less so if the moderator is playing fairly you are toast buddy.
- joegreif17

Wah way wah

He scores at the rate of a high end 2C/low end 1C. His other stats at ES are well at the 1C level.

Over the last 2 years combined, his 5v5 scoring rate is ~15th among players I'd call full time centers (>1500 minutes played). What is that then? 30 teams, 30 top line ES centers. These are called: facts.

💩
- Mononoke

Not sure it was posted here before, but may help with perspective:

https://twitter.com/avapp...%3Ft%3D2372855%26page%3D2

Trade Couturier and a 1st to STL for Schenn