Why would you base your opinion of his scoring ability on just pure point totals when he missed time? That makes no sense. You wouldn't say McDavid was the 46th best center in 2015-16 because he only scored 48 points, would you? Or that Kane was only the 29th best player overall in 2014-15 because he only had 64 points. That's why PPG is a better representation/evaluation of production than just points, as long as the sample isn't small.
- L_B_R

I wasn't saying he was the 21st best center that's why I stated (at least in the one narrow category of points.) and it wasn't just this season it was the last two. Granted he did miss ten games this season, but that wasn't the case the previous season.


BTW 2016/17 Toews ranked 18th in ppg with 0.81

In 2015/16 Toews ranked 27th with 0.73

Sum of the two seasons combined he ranked 24th with 0.76

Just for grins 2014/15 he was in a three way tie for 16th with 0.81

I wasn't saying he was the 21st best center that's why I stated (at least in the one narrow category of points.) and it wasn't just this season it was the last two. Granted he did miss ten games this season, but that wasn't the case the previous season.


BTW 2016/17 Toews ranked 18th in ppg with 0.81

In 2015/16 Toews ranked 27th with 0.73

Sum of the two seasons combined he ranked 24th with 0.76

Just for grins 2014/15 he was in a three way tie for 16th with 0.81
- walleyeb1

I'm not here to argue either way in the conversation between you and LBR, but I was actually surprised (in a good way actually) at what Toews' PPG has been the past two seasons. I may have calculated wrong, but the past two seasons his PPG has been identical at .84.

That's not the point I want to make, though. Over the course of his career, his PPG per season has never been below .81 except for his sophomore year when it was .725. He's had one season greater than 1.0 and a few in the +.90 range but most of his seasons have been in the mid .80 range.

For a guy who has a reputation of being a top two-way center who can shutdown the other teams' best guys while also being one of the league's best captains (if not the best), those are pretty good PPG stats.

If Toews production doesn't improve he will be more in line with a #2 center-But not saying that is etched in stone. A back injury for a hockey player...especially a chronic one is tough.

My overriding point is I would be more concerned in his ability to cover a #1 center rather than score like one.
- Al

It's just not factually correct to say Toews production last season was outside a 1C range though. It's just not - 15th in PPG means he literally produced right in the middle of all top line centers (and that's without excluding guys labeled as centers who actually play wing or those who are deployed much more offensively than 1C's typically are). Even if you average his last two seasons, he's still in the top 30.

What do you think a 1C and 2C produce in the NHL right now? The range for a 1C bottoms out at .71 and averages .80 PPG over the last 3 seasons. Toews was well above the former and just above the latter last year. Again, points-wise, Toews is pretty much in the sweet spot when it comes to 1C production.

I don't understand what you guys saying he's producing at a 2C level are basing it on because it's not actual points - at least not anything since like 2010. That was 7 years ago! Brad Richards was over a PPG then, the Sedins were still relevant ffs. NHL production has declined a huge amount since then.

If Toews doesn't improve at all, he'll probably stay right in the middle of the other 1st line centers and that would be fine. I don't have any idea how his back will impact him, but if he just replicates his PPG last year, he's fine. It'd certainly be nice if most of the production wasn't all crammed into the 2nd half a season, as well.

As for other 1C duties, that's a much bigger discussion. But the point remains - Toews produced points at a rate that was in line with other 1Cs in the NHL today.

It's just not factually correct to say Toews production last season was outside a 1C range though. It's just not - 15th in PPG means he literally produced right in the middle of all top line centers (and that's without excluding guys labeled as centers who actually play wing or those who are deployed much more offensively than 1C's typically are). Even if you average his last two seasons, he's still in the top 30.

What do you think a 1C and 2C produce in the NHL right now? The range for a 1C bottoms out at .71 and averages .80 PPG over the last 3 seasons. Toews was well above the former and just above the latter last year. Again, points-wise, Toews is pretty much in the sweet spot when it comes to 1C production.

I don't understand what you guys saying he's producing at a 2C level are basing it on because it's not actual points - at least not anything since like 2010. That was 7 years ago! Brad Richards was over a PPG then, the Sedins were still relevant ffs. NHL production has declined a huge amount since then.

If Toews doesn't improve at all, he'll probably stay right in the middle of the other 1st line centers and that would be fine. I don't have any idea how his back will impact him, but if he just replicates his PPG last year, he's fine. It'd certainly be nice if most of the production wasn't all crammed into the 2nd half a season, as well.

As for other 1C duties, that's a much bigger discussion. But the point remains - Toews produced points at a rate that was in line with other 1Cs in the NHL today.
- L_B_R

Again...If you go back my point was an argument could be made that his production is not that of a top 1st line center. But not really MY main point...

What made this team go in the playoffs is the match-up edge Q had and that was based on Toews being able to eliminate the #1 center on the other team in a playoff round...Toews could go games or a series or two without producing much in the playoffs...That's his playoff history. But then he would usually come through with a big goal or 2 at a crucial time.

If Toews gets tossed around again, as was the case versus Johansen and can't defend the Hawks become like other teams that can not win important playoff games.

What his stats are during the regular season can be debated but that wasn't my main point or interest...The Hawks need Toews to be a 200 ft center that can eliminate the top offensive center in important games-Otherwise Q loses his edge and that should be the main worry-Not if Toews scores 62 points or 72 points in the regular season.

It's just not factually correct to say Toews production last season was outside a 1C range though. It's just not - 15th in PPG means he literally produced right in the middle of all top line centers (and that's without excluding guys labeled as centers who actually play wing or those who are deployed much more offensively than 1C's typically are). Even if you average his last two seasons, he's still in the top 30.

What do you think a 1C and 2C produce in the NHL right now? The range for a 1C bottoms out at .71 and averages .80 PPG over the last 3 seasons. Toews was well above the former and just above the latter last year. Again, points-wise, Toews is pretty much in the sweet spot when it comes to 1C production.

I don't understand what you guys saying he's producing at a 2C level are basing it on because it's not actual points - at least not anything since like 2010. That was 7 years ago! Brad Richards was over a PPG then, the Sedins were still relevant ffs. NHL production has declined a huge amount since then.

If Toews doesn't improve at all, he'll probably stay right in the middle of the other 1st line centers and that would be fine. I don't have any idea how his back will impact him, but if he just replicates his PPG last year, he's fine. It'd certainly be nice if most of the production wasn't all crammed into the 2nd half a season, as well.

As for other 1C duties, that's a much bigger discussion. But the point remains - Toews produced points at a rate that was in line with other 1Cs in the NHL today.
- L_B_R

This is correct, and the good news is he had a better season this past season so he's trending in the right direction.

I'm much less worried about PPG stats than I am him keeping possession and making better plays. Playing harder on the back check. Consistency.

With Saad I'm just hoping we spend more time in the offensive zone. That's really all I'm looking for. Less chasing.

I wasn't saying he was the 21st best center that's why I stated (at least in the one narrow category of points.) and it wasn't just this season it was the last two. Granted he did miss ten games this season, but that wasn't the case the previous season.


BTW 2016/17 Toews ranked 18th in ppg with 0.81

In 2015/16 Toews ranked 27th with 0.73

Sum of the two seasons combined he ranked 24th with 0.76

Just for grins 2014/15 he was in a three way tie for 16th with 0.81
- walleyeb1

Unless you want to include some dude named Samuel Henley who had one point in one game, you need to set a game played limit for actually useful rankings.

Sample size fluctuations when it comes to points ends at about the 29/30 game mark, though 41 games is considered the standard when looking at PPG since it's half a season. Pick either one, they both work.

So in 2016/17, Toews was ranked 15th in PPG for .81 PPG. Toews dipped down to .73 PPG in 2015/16, yes, but he had a .81 PPG in 2014/15 (good for 16th). Doing a sum of two seasons is fine, but looking at 3 years is better because it shows clearly that 2015/16 was likely an outlier, just like Hossa's 2015/16 season was.

If a player's PPG is maintaining or gradually declining as it does with age/general lowering of production across all the NHL, then the sudden and sharp dip in production that does not line up with their underlying numbers at all in any way is typically seen at an anomaly. Especially when they finish exactly their current season exactly in line with the season before last. One underwhelming (but not outside the 1C range) season does not make for a good evaluation of a player. It just doesn't. It shouldn't be thrown out when evaluating, but it has to be looked at in context to his other seasons.

This argument was made over and over with Hossa last summer - that he was likely to rebound because he was still doing a lot of things that made Hossa score (shooting rates, scoring location, etc) and it just wasn't going in for some reason. Did Hossa not rebound last season? Yes, yes he did. Same argument was made for Toews - would he perform better once fully healed and with better linemates like he did/had in the latter half of the season? Yes again. There's an argument to be made that Toews shouldn't need certain linemates to make him go, but he's hardly the only player to have this issue (Crosby even had it when they tried to pair him with Kessel unsuccessfully).

The fact that Hossa and Toews had pretty much exactly the same decline in a single year and then rebounded the next further provides evidence that the down year is an outlier. It's not all that uncommon - Toews just took longer to get going. We just have to hope that Toews is fully healed next year and can at least maintain his production, all while improving his play outside of points, especially in the playoffs.

Again...If you go back my point was an argument could be made that his production is not that of a top 1st line center. But not really MY main point...

What made this team go in the playoffs is the match-up edge Q had and that was based on Toews being able to eliminate the #1 center on the other team in a playoff round...Toews could go games or a series or two without producing much in the playoffs...That's his playoff history. But then he would usually come through with a big goal or 2 at a crucial time.

If Toews gets tossed around again, as was the case versus Johansen and can't defend the Hawks become like other teams that can not win important playoff games.

What his stats are during the regular season can be debated but that wasn't my main point or interest...The Hawks need Toews to be a 200 ft center that can eliminate the top offensive center in important games-Otherwise Q loses his edge and that should be the main worry-Not if Toews scores 62 points or 72 points in the regular season.
- Al

I guess I don't understand why you mentioned his points production if you didn't care about it. And why you keep saying it could be a debate when it's easily proven that he produced in the 1C range last season. The other things, maybe, but production is fine. This is the first time you mention playoffs at all, so of course the discussion was regular season focused. I don't really know why it wouldn't be before but okay.

Either way, I do agree that the most important issue for Toews is him carrying out the other duties as a 1C, including matchups against other 1Cs in important games. That is a legit concern, rather than his points (which were fine).

Pirri signs with ZSC Lions in Swiss league (same team as recently retired Klein).

My overriding point is I would be more concerned in his ability to cover a #1 center rather than score like one.
- Al

Either way, I do agree that the most important issue for Toews is him carrying out the other duties as a 1C, including matchups against other 1Cs in important games. That is a legit concern, rather than his points (which were fine).
- L_B_R

I think both of you stated it well in these two statements. His offense has been fine over the balance of his career so far (yes, he's had slow starts and slumps), but I agree with you both that my biggest concern is if he can excel again at shutting down the other teams' top players. He needs to dominate guys like Johansen and show them how it's done, not the other way around.

Unless you want to include some dude named Samuel Henley who had one point in one game, you need to set a game played limit for actually useful rankings.

Sample size fluctuations when it comes to points ends at about the 29/30 game mark, though 41 games is considered the standard when looking at PPG since it's half a season. Pick either one, they both work.

So in 2016/17, Toews was ranked 15th in PPG for .81 PPG. Toews dipped down to .76 PPG in 2015/16, yes, but he had a .81 PPG in 2014/15 (good for 16th). Doing a sum of two seasons is fine, but looking at 3 years is better because it shows clearly that 2015/16 wasn't likely an outlier, just like Hossa's 2015/16 season was.

If a player's PPG is maintaining or gradually declining as it does with age/general lowering of production across all the NHL, then the sudden and sharp dip in production that does not line up with their underlying numbers at all in any way is typically seen at an anomaly. Especially when they finish exactly their current season exactly in line with the season before last. One underwhelming (but not outside the 1C range) season does not make for a good evaluation of a player. It just doesn't. It shouldn't be thrown out when evaluating, but it has to be looked at in context to his other seasons.

This argument was made over and over with Hossa last summer - that he was likely to rebound because he was still doing a lot of things that made Hossa score (shooting rates, scoring location, etc) and it just wasn't going in for some reason. Did Hossa not rebound last season? Yes, yes he did. Same argument was made for Toews - would he perform better once fully healed and with better linemates like he did/had in the latter half of the season? Yes again. There's an argument to be made that Toews shouldn't need certain linemates to make him go, but he's hardly the only player to have this issue (Crosby even had it when they tried to pair him with Kessel unsuccessfully).

The fact that Hossa and Toews had pretty much exactly the same decline in a single year and then rebounded the next further provides evidence that the down year is an outlier. It's not all that uncommon - Toews just took longer to get going. We just have to hope that Toews is fully healed next year and can maintain his production and while improving his play outside of points, especially in the playoffs.
- L_B_R

Yeah I noticed that afterwards, 15th when I kicked the minimum games played to 60. Hopefully having Saad and Panik on his wings we'll see a decent jump in his PPG. Especially if he changes his off season diet and workout regimen as he said.

I think both of you stated it well in these two statements. His offense has been fine over the balance of his career so far (yes, he's had slow starts and slumps), but I agree with you both that my biggest concern is if he can excel again at shutting down the other teams' top players. He needs to dominate guys like Johansen and show them how it's done, not the other way around.
- AEL_Fox

Tbf some guys just don't match up well against other guys. Toews has struggled against guys like Kesler or Zetterberg, but then does really well against Getzlaf and Datsyuk (both of whom are the better players imo). Hopefully Johansen is not in the former group and/or that the Hawks have another line that can help with matchup flexibility. I honestly think Toews would not have had as much (if any) issue against most other centers from western conference playoff teams.

I am interested to see this prospect camp. I also wonder if their could be teams like CO (Duchene), BUF (E. Kane), MONTREAL (Anisimov) taking a look at s prospect or two that could be included in a deal.

Tbf some guys just don't match up well against other guys. Toews has struggled against guys like Kesler or Zetterberg, but then does really well against Getzlaf and Datsyuk (both of whom are the better players imo). Hopefully Johansen is not in the former group and/or that the Hawks have another line that can help with matchup flexibility. I honestly think Toews would not have had as much (if any) issue against most other centers from western conference playoff teams.
- L_B_R

Teams like Nashvile used a combination of a Johansen and their two defenders to smother/manhandle Toews. It will be a little harder with Saad and Panik on his wings.
It would be nice if Ulf puts in a system where our defenders get a lot more aggressive/physical with opposing centers in our crease and behind our net to give our centers some help in our own end.

We may get some idea of Ulf's influence in prospect camp.

Unless you want to include some dude named Samuel Henley who had one point in one game, you need to set a game played limit for actually useful rankings.

Sample size fluctuations when it comes to points ends at about the 29/30 game mark, though 41 games is considered the standard when looking at PPG since it's half a season. Pick either one, they both work.

So in 2016/17, Toews was ranked 15th in PPG for .81 PPG. Toews dipped down to .73 PPG in 2015/16, yes, but he had a .81 PPG in 2014/15 (good for 16th). Doing a sum of two seasons is fine, but looking at 3 years is better because it shows clearly that 2015/16 was likely an outlier, just like Hossa's 2015/16 season was.

If a player's PPG is maintaining or gradually declining as it does with age/general lowering of production across all the NHL, then the sudden and sharp dip in production that does not line up with their underlying numbers at all in any way is typically seen at an anomaly. Especially when they finish exactly their current season exactly in line with the season before last. One underwhelming (but not outside the 1C range) season does not make for a good evaluation of a player. It just doesn't. It shouldn't be thrown out when evaluating, but it has to be looked at in context to his other seasons.

This argument was made over and over with Hossa last summer - that he was likely to rebound because he was still doing a lot of things that made Hossa score (shooting rates, scoring location, etc) and it just wasn't going in for some reason. Did Hossa not rebound last season? Yes, yes he did. Same argument was made for Toews - would he perform better once fully healed and with better linemates like he did/had in the latter half of the season? Yes again. There's an argument to be made that Toews shouldn't need certain linemates to make him go, but he's hardly the only player to have this issue (Crosby even had it when they tried to pair him with Kessel unsuccessfully).

The fact that Hossa and Toews had pretty much exactly the same decline in a single year and then rebounded the next further provides evidence that the down year is an outlier. It's not all that uncommon - Toews just took longer to get going. We just have to hope that Toews is fully healed next year and can at least maintain his production, all while improving his play outside of points, especially in the playoffs.
- L_B_R

One of the team's problems the past two seasons has been 5x5 production - Looking at Toews' 5x5 stats the past 5 seasons (and I haven't looked at the rankings, only the raw scores):

Pts/60: 3.3-2.3-2.2-1.6-1.9
CF%: 57.5-59.3-55.8-51.0-51.8

If I'm reading those correctly, that's a pretty dramatic decline (recognizing that CF especially is very team-dependent.

But even without looking at the stats - has he been (and will he become again) the guy who "willed" the goal almost by himself against Vancouver to send game 7 to OT?

He hasn't been since the last Cup team.

How serious is this latest round of trade talks?
- wonthecup10

None to nonexisistent

Convention: perfect splash for him to make by marching out someone like Evander Kane or Matt Duchene next Friday afternoon, 2nd , regarding AA, if your him, do you even show for this event if he is on his way out of town?
- wonthecup10

I honest remember this comment made at each and every pre-convention period, but I don't think that they hockey business decisions allign with fan fueled events. You notice how they managed to make the biggest trade in their last decade and didn't wait until ten minutes before the draft started to announce on the mike there?

Kudos to Soupy on a great career, but let's stop with the Oduya crap , I don't think SB has any intention of bringing him back.
- wonthecup10

I think that was an injured Johnny Oduya we saw last Spring, and it is time to actually develop or at least put on a long rope, the younger bottom end defensemen you already have.

That Franson idea doesn't sound bad. Q probably endorsing it also. No F'N way Joel goes into the season with Forsling, Ruutta , and Kempny all playing meaningful minutes, I see , if this crap is true, Cody Franson being a logical choice.
- wonthecup10

My personal opinion of Cody Franson is he is terrible, and I would rather see a prospect crap the ebd there instead of a watching him underwelhm with the hawks as he has each and every city he has been given the chance at good minutes and good situations. There is no coincidence he is available.

Same goes with the Forwards,no way Joel goes into it with 5-7 young guys in his top 9, so Debrincat, Fortin , and who ever else the Kool aid drinkers are slotting on Kane's line, I think Quennville will surely have something to say about that.
- wonthecup10

IF Q was truly this roadblock to developing kids (and not a willing yet strict disciplinarian to getting things correct), he would BE GONE, right?

If Hawks can't get a kid like Duchene, Jenner or E. Kane without trading AA, well, I am stumped, have to see what Bowman does, which will probably be resolved long before camp starts and NOT the second day of the season. Right now,, Bowman threw a little piece of cheese out there regarding Hossa's status and time frame, and most took the bait thinking game 2of the season. Good move Stan , keep em guessing.
- wonthecup10

Whether they resolve or add with new found Hossa Cap money at game one or game 52, I think they aren't planning any strategic BIG moves just more tinkering to upgrade at both ends, and in net if the back-up proves incapable of being a back-up.

Either way, I do agree that the most important issue for Toews is him carrying out the other duties as a 1C, including matchups against other 1Cs in important games. That is a legit concern, rather than his points (which were fine).
- L_B_R

I think the underlying truth is this is exactly why teams have Anisimovs, Hanzels, and bigger guys to match up against top line centres so Toews has room in both sides of his game to make plays that set up looks.

I'm much less worried about PPG stats than I am him keeping possession and making better plays. Playing harder on the back check. Consistency.

With Saad I'm just hoping we spend more time in the offensive zone. That's really all I'm looking for. Less chasing.
- Felon454

i think a lot of this depends on Panik. He can do a lot of things but he is not the beast on the puck that Hossa was. Not even close. Still, Saader and Toews are.

I think the underlying truth is this is exactly why teams have Anisimovs, Hanzels, and bigger guys to match up against top line centres so Toews has room in both sides of his game to make plays that set up looks.
- wiz1901

Yeah, I just don't see how someone can relentlessly praise AA as a center, and simultaneously downgrade Hanzal.

Actually similar players and Hanzal does a couple of things better.

Pirri signs with ZSC Lions in Swiss league (same team as recently retired Klein).
- AEL_Fox

#blackhawklegend

He will on day 2 of the season.
- tvetter

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Hawks have to use Hossa's LTIR money for a forward per the CBA—ie, a plausible replacement.

None to nonexisistent




I honest remember this comment made at each and every pre-convention period, but I don't think that they hockey business decisions allign with fan fueled events. You notice how they managed to make the biggest trade in their last decade and didn't wait until ten minutes before the draft started to announce on the mike there?




I think that was an injured Johnny Oduya we saw last Spring, and it is time to actually develop or at least put on a long rope, the younger bottom end defensemen you already have.



My personal opinion of Cody Franson is he is terrible, and I would rather see a prospect crap the ebd there instead of a watching him underwelhm with the hawks as he has each and every city he has been given the chance at good minutes and good situations. There is no coincidence he is available.




IF Q was truly this roadblock to developing kids (and not a willing yet strict disciplinarian to getting things correct), he would BE GONE, right?



Whether they resolve or add with new found Hossa Cap money at game one or game 52, I think they aren't planning any strategic BIG moves just more tinkering to upgrade at both ends, and in net if the back-up proves incapable of being a back-up.
- wiz1901

Funny, i hear a lot of valid information and I have yet to hear that there is no truth to these rumors.

Nor have I heard there is truth, beyond:

The Hawks WERE highly and seriously interested in acquiring Duchene in january and February of this year.

And there were some talks earlier this summer between Montreal and the Hawks around Anisimov.

And there have been some talks about E, Kane, spurred in part by a desire of P. Kane to have him on his opposite wing.

All plausible, ALL borne out by multiple sources who have been right before.

I would just love to hear the incontrovertible proof that the latest batch of rumors (that I can't honestly weigh in on one way or the other at this point in time), AREN'T happening.

Beyond someone's opinion that it "doesn't make sense."

Was hoping Campbell could convince Rozy to retire, too.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Hawks have to use Hossa's LTIR money for a forward per the CBA—ie, a plausible replacement.
- John Jaeckel

I re-read that part of the CBA and I didn't see anything specific that said that you must replace a forward with a forward or a d-man with a d-man. I may have missed it because that thing is tough to read.