Again, the argument I am making is given the leverage the Yotes had, they could have done better. They moved up 4 spots (from 20 to 16), to acquire a negative value contract and give up a 2nd round pick. The regular cost to move up those 4 spots would probably cost a 3rd, especially considering we are talking mid to late teens in the 1st round, yet the cost for the Yotes was a 2nd.
- uf1910

I guess I just forgot that you were involved in the negotiations

There's more to trades than just the results. Maybe Chayka was looking to develop a positive relationship with another GM while still helping his team.

What team has ever moved up 4 spots in the first round using only a 3rd as incentive? I don't even think a mid-round 2nd would be enough.
- jmatchett383

Just looking at last season alone

Devils/Sens swapped 1 spot last season for a 3rd
Blues/Caps swapped 2 spots for a 3rd
Jets/Flyers swapped 4 spots at the cost of swapping a 2nd round pick for a 3rd

A 3rd round pick is close to the value of moving 4 spots in the mid to late 1st round

If that's the player they targeted, and all they had to do was give up a late second and take back some money, I think it was a decent trade, personally.
- jmatchett383

agreed. pressure was on. If there was more time, than maybe you try to grind the other guy down, for another 2nd.

But you’re on the draft floor under time pressure. Either you make the deal and get a guy you have ranked in the top 10 at 16 or you miss the opportunity forever. Can’t let a 2nd get in the way of the deal.

I guess I just forgot that you were involved in the negotiations

There's more to trades than just the results. Maybe Chayka was looking to develop a positive relationship with another GM while still helping his team.
- lemieux_66

Merely stating (based on history), the Yotes gave up extra value (mid 2nd rounder), to move yup 4 spots AND take a negative value contract.

Compare to Yotes taking on Pronger's deal, which netted them either a 4th or 3rd depending on the year they took the pick.

Merely stating (based on history), the Yotes gave up extra value (mid 2nd rounder), to move yup 4 spots AND take a negative value contract.

Compare to Yotes taking on Pronger's deal, which netted them either a 4th or 3rd depending on the year they took the pick.
- uf1910

the deal was:

16 for 20 and 53 (very fair)

vitale for datsyuk (cash for caphit)

based on how good chychrun was last year as an 18-year rookie dman, yotes would have been foolish to pass on the deal.

they also dumped vitale on the wings. saved them actual cash. for a team bleeding money, that's a win.

and the 53 + 20 is pretty much the exact cost to move up to 16.

https://www.broadstreetho...aft-pick-value-trading-up
- Tumbleweed

It's close, again, and this is the argument I keep making. Acquiring Datsyuk is a negative value acquisition. If the cost to move from 20 to 16 is a mid to late 2nd, then acquiring Datsyuk was free?

The pick was excellent, and makes the deal worth it, but just looking at the trade on paper it wasn't

Just looking at last season alone

Devils/Sens swapped 1 spot last season for a 3rd
Blues/Caps swapped 2 spots for a 3rd
Jets/Flyers swapped 4 spots at the cost of swapping a 2nd round pick for a 3rd

A 3rd round pick is close to the value of moving 4 spots in the mid to late 1st round
- uf1910

So, basically, never is the answer.

It's close, again, and this is the argument I keep making. Acquiring Datsyuk is a negative value acquisition. If the cost to move from 20 to 16 is a mid to late 2nd, then acquiring Datsyuk was free?

The pick was excellent, and makes the deal worth it, but just looking at the trade on paper it wasn't
- uf1910

yotes dumped vitale, for cash savings.

datsyuk was purely a caphit, zero cash.

so the cost of datysuk was not free to the wings.

It's close, again, and this is the argument I keep making. Acquiring Datsyuk is a negative value acquisition. If the cost to move from 20 to 16 is a mid to late 2nd, then acquiring Datsyuk was free?

The pick was excellent, and makes the deal worth it, but just looking at the trade on paper it wasn't
- uf1910

Maybe Detroit said no way unless they took Datsyuk. If they really wanted him, and all the had to give up was a late second and use their expansive cap space, then it was worth it to them.

I guess it's also an impossibility that Detroit really wanted Chychrun, a player who was originally a top-5 pick, at 16, and therefore demanded an "overpayment" if they were going to trade the pick.

Datsyuk deal wasn't a good one IMO. Took on the contract to move up 4 spots in the 1st round AND gave up a 2nd. I get it was helpful for the Yotes, but it was extremely helpful for Detroit at a minimal price. The Yotes had the leverage yet Wings didn't have to pay a premium.

Otherwise I would agree he has been more or less successful
- uf1910

That move was terrible for DET

I guess it's also an impossibility that Detroit really wanted Chychrun, a player who was originally a top-5 pick, at 16, and therefore demanded an "overpayment" if they were going to trade the pick.
- jmatchett383

Yotes had to make the deal. They had chychurn ranked at no lower than 8. If you have a chance to get him at 16, you don’t worry about overpaying a little; even if they did.

the deal was:

16 for 20 and 53 (very fair)

vitale for datsyuk (cash for caphit)

based on how good chychrun was last year as an 18-year rookie dman, yotes would have been foolish to pass on the deal.
- Tumbleweed

Basically the Coyotes got:

A bonafide NHL caliber D man (Chychrun) + a cap hit (Datsyuk) for actual cash (Vitale), a D prospect that might be an NHLer in 3 to 5 years (Cholowski), and a D prospect that might be an NHLer in 2 to 4 year (Hronek)

Only way the Coyotes lost this trade is if either Hronek or Cholowski become legitimate top pair guys and that does not seem likely to happen.

That move was terrible for DET
- Feds91Stammer

especially when you consider holland's new found cap space turned into the poison pill named frans Nielsen.

Maybe Detroit said no way unless they took Datsyuk. If they really wanted him, and all the had to give up was a late second and use their expansive cap space, then it was worth it to them.
- jmatchett383

During the draft when asked about the trade Chayka said they really liked Chychrun and even though he understands it is generally poor value wise to trade up they were able to acquire a guy they considered taking 7th overall.

It's close, again, and this is the argument I keep making. Acquiring Datsyuk is a negative value acquisition. If the cost to move from 20 to 16 is a mid to late 2nd, then acquiring Datsyuk was free?

The pick was excellent, and makes the deal worth it, but just looking at the trade on paper it wasn't
- uf1910

You are completely missing the point and have a very flawed analysis. The trade wasn't to move up from 20 to 16. It was to move up from Stanley/cholowski to Chychrun. Everyone knew that Detroit and Arizona wanted a defenseman and that Chychrun was next off the board.

You can't just look at past "pick placement" trades because they are not all equal. The price to move from #3 overall to #1 overall this year is significantly less than the last 2 years because Mcdavid and Mathews caused a bigger spread over Strome and Dubois.

All in all if both teams were forced to do the trade again today, knowing exactly how it would all turn out, I guarantee AZ would do it in a heartbeat, and I doubt Detroit would do it again. Getting rid of Datsyuks contract didn't help their playoff hopes, and Chychrun is far better than the pundits thought.

Coyotes win the trade hands down and your analysis misses that blatant fact.

especially when you consider holland's new found cap space turned into the poison pill named frans Nielsen.
- Tumbleweed

Just wait until this off season. After Mrazek is in Vegas, and XO, AA, and Tatar is signed he will have roughly $7M in cap space to offer another bad contract. My guess is he brings Vanek back for 3 years/$12M

Just wait until this off season. After Mrazek is in Vegas, and XO, AA, and Tatar is signed he will have roughly $7M in cap space to offer another bad contract. My guess is he brings Vanek back for 3 years/$12M
- Feds91Stammer

lol

Chayka has done a great job in the year he's been GM. He got Chychrun for taking on a contract, a creative move that allowed him to pick a player who was as highly ranked as top three a year from the draft.

He got Lawson Crouse, a 2015 1st rounder for taking a contract.

He traded for DeAngleo, which looks like an astute pick up, more so because he took a "troubled" player at a discount.

Went off the board a bit to draft a small, skilled centre - whether or not it works out, I like the reasoning behind the pick as scouting/ draft rankings tend to overrate size and certain experiences and junior programs.

Traded a 35 year old goalie, got a prospect, a pick and saved $8 million.

A first for a perpetually injured Hanzal.

Even the Nick Cousins pick up was a smart gamble, Luke Schenn too, grabbing Holland, Burmistrov.

I think anyone would be hardpressed to find more than one or two GMs who where better over the last year.
- James_Tanner

1. Incorrect James. He took on a contract and also gave a 1st and I believe a 3rd rd back. He moved up what 5 spots? Doesn’t take a genius to do that. Should have got more.
2. Traded a 2nd and 3rd for Crouse. Not reinventing the wheel here. He took shot and nothing wrong with that
3. Good move. Though both team gave up on Crouse and Deangelo for a reason and not just cap space.
4. Goalie trade was good.
5. Trade deadline for hanzel was a move countless GM’s have made before and will still make. Again he didn’t do anything that hasn’t been done before.

He isn’t doing anything new James. So stop with the he is great mantra. Its easy to make moves when you’re a last place team with nothing to lose. he is doing a good job on paper so far; see how it plays out.

if they ever become good see how he does when a buyer and not a seller

lol
- Tumbleweed

Honestly I hope someone offer sheets Tatar or he holds out and requests a trade. I don't want to see him play for this poopshow of a team.

1. Incorrect James. He took on a contract and also gave a 1st and I believe a 3rd rd back. He moved up what 5 spots? Doesn’t take a genius to do that. Should have got more.
2. Traded a 2nd and 3rd for Crouse. Not reinventing the wheel here. He took shot and nothing wrong with that
3. Good move. Though both team gave up on Crouse and Deangelo for a reason and not just cap space.
4. Goalie trade was good.
5. Trade deadline for hanzel was a move countless GM’s have made before and will still make. Again he didn’t do anything that hasn’t been done before.

He isn’t doing anything new James. So stop with the he is great mantra. Its easy to make moves when you’re a last place team with nothing to lose. he is doing a good job on paper so far; see how it plays out.

if they ever become good see how he does when a buyer and not a seller
- rinaldo

Buddy just go ahead and delete your account.

Honestly I hope someone offer sheets Tatar or he holds out and requests a trade. I don't want to see him play for this poopshow of a team.
- Feds91Stammer

Andrew MacDonald and a 3rd for Tatar.

You can use the third to move up 4 spots in the first round, I hear.

Andrew MacDonald and a 3rd for Tatar.

You can use the third to move up 4 spots in the first round, I hear.
- jmatchett383

Best offer I could imagine.

A-Mac helps the tank efforts. Tatar gets out of that poop show and DET can move up to 5th overall and hope Heiskanen or Vilardi falls to them.

Chayka has done a nice job of acquiring assets. I don't necessarily think it means he is doing a good job however. The Coyotes have some solid looking prospects but right now don't have a hell of a lot of talent on the roster. They have a bunch of prospects with upside, but the problem is they will most likely struggle with development because there are few good players to work them in with.

About half the teams in the league have better 3rd lines than the best line the Yotes can put together. At some point in time you have to win in the NHL, not just make asset deals just for the sake of "winning" a trade.

Buddy just go ahead and delete your account.
- Feds91Stammer

ok buddy. just did