ban hats!
- BiggE

Hats, the silent emo boy killers.

But seriously, I see this board as an example of this.

Someone nitpicks someone else's post or needs to show how smart they are. The discussion becomes blown of proportion until they decide to run head-first at each other to see who can piss further. Finally, someone not initially involved at all gets hit with a shoe.

Can someone please revalidate my comment
- YuenglingJagr

Your comment is invalidated because I don't like and/or agree with it.

You're obviously not ready to have a legitimate, intelligent argument on the subject, and I am the only person on here with a brain. No one else on here comprehends things as well as me.

Also, I'm married, and I talk like this to my wife. I imagine she just cries all day long at work.

Hats, the silent emo boy killers.

But seriously, I see this board as an example of this.

Someone nitpicks someone else's post or needs to show how smart they are. The discussion becomes blown of proportion until they decide to run head-first at each other to see who can piss further. Finally, someone not initially involved at all gets hit with a shoe.
- jmatchett383

It always ends with someone getting hit by a shoe. Always.





#teamgobarefoot

Your comment is invalidated because I don't like and/or agree with it.

You're obviously not ready to have a legitimate, intelligent argument on the subject, and I am the only person on here with a brain. No one else on here comprehends things as well as me.

Also, I'm married, and I talk like this to my wife. I imagine she just cries all day long at work.
- jmatchett383

I imagine she is plotting your imminent demise at this very moment.

You act as if this is something new and you're the only one that knows the strengths and weaknesses of advanced statistics. Any form of data (film or formula) can be interpreted incorrectly. The post is difficult to read and we've moved on.

And no, the Flyers don't do everything wrong. For the last 4 years they have done a lot of things right. They still do some things wrong though. Some of which have come and gone and some of which are current and concerning. I don't think it takes the use of "analytics" to see that either. Hopefully moving forward they do enough right to overcome the wrong, which is really the case for any team, I just hope the Flyers do it better than the others.
- YuenglingJagr

I love how people try to say analytics are right or wrong as if some machine outputs a binary yes/no. The numbers aren't right or wrong, they just are what they are. It's left to the person interpreting them. Filppula performed poorly defensively with both the Lightning and Flyers last year. I didn't just look at Corsi or Fenwick overall. If you isolate him with other players and look at QoC, QoT and zone starts, it doesn't help his case. Perhaps he was dealing with an injury all season, but that was never mentioned at all, so I'd guess he was mostly healthy by NHL standards.

If you want to argue the merits of these numbers, you cannot simply point to the eye test. It would make no sense. If you want to dispute the numbers, you need to show empirically why. The onus is now on the other party to disprove this hypothesis.

Filppula was bad defensively last year. Hopefully, there was some circumstance that contributed to this that goes beyond the numbers. Any offensive contribution was outweighed by poor defensive play.

Yay

It always ends with someone getting hit by a shoe. Always.





#teamgobarefoot
- BiggE

In Key West sure. In Jersey not so much...

I love how people try to say analytics are right or wrong as if some machine outputs a binary yes/no. The numbers aren't right or wrong, they just are what they are. It's left to the person interpreting them. Filppula performed poorly defensively with both the Lightning and Flyers last year. I didn't just look at Corsi or Fenwick overall. If you isolate him with other players and look at QoC, QoT and zone starts, it doesn't help his case. Perhaps he was dealing with an injury all season, but that was never mentioned at all, so I'd guess he was mostly healthy by NHL standards.


- PhillySportsGuy

That is false. Nobody has stated that analytics are right or wrong. I've simply stated that these numbers are used improperly and the analysis of these numbers is what is wrong. That is further reinforced by your comments above. None of those numbers are capable of pointing out that Filppula performed poorly defensively. They are team numbers. None of those numbers are capable of isolating Filppula from his teammates.

If you want to argue the merits of these numbers, you cannot simply point to the eye test. It would make no sense. If you want to dispute the numbers, you need to show empirically why. The onus is now on the other party to disprove this hypothesis.


- PhillySportsGuy

When it comes to an eye test and an opinion offered on that, nobody can link to a chart or a website, or any data outside of analytics to support that opinion. So that statement is disingenuous. In my opinion a quality analysis of a player is made up of observation of a player from an informed source combined with analytics as supportive data for or against. Any analysis based purely on anlaytics or giving a high amount of weight to analytics will be flawed. You can put any onus on it that you want.

Can someone please revalidate my comment
- YuenglingJagr

Snowflake

Honestly based on what will be available come Expansion draft Day, Matt Read will be among the top players available.

It's hard to argue/prove anything with the eye test so that makes it okay to make flawed analysis based on an over use of analytics? How many times did you watch Filppulla play for Tampa last year and how is that relevant to how he played for the Flyers? Those using analytics to point out that Filpulla was bad last year for the Flyers are simply wrong. We're reading time after time certain posters calling other posters opinions narratives when they themselves are the ones offering the flawed narratives. From Gordon to Filppula. I completely agree on the point concerning Courturier but that is a completely different topic.
- MJL

I'm sure there are some that perform poor analyses using the data available. If anything the hockey world under utilizes analytics, and there is so much more potential if the NHL/hockey world invested more into getting even better data.

I didn't watch all 59 games Flip played before joining the Flyers, but I watched a good portion and went to a few games while I was in Tampa. Those games aren't relevant to how he played for the Flyers, but they are relevant for predicting future success. And right now, that is for the Flyers. Those 59 games for Tampa will be more influential to predicting his future success than the 20 games he played for the Flyers.

Sure some of the data is flawed, and that will likely always be the case. But to dismiss analytics is completely foolish. I spend most of my time developing predictive models for companies using data that is just as flawed as the data in hockey analytics, if not more flawed. It doesn't stop these companies from using it as it saves them tons of money. Over a large sample size, the influence of these flaws can be reduced to nothing, which is one of the reasons it is so important to not put a lot of stock in a small one. Like the 20 games Flip played for the Flyers last year.

Seems testy up in here.
- hockeylover

My doctor says this before asking me to cough.

I'm sure there are some that perform poor analyses using the data available. If anything the hockey world under utilizes analytics, and there is so much more potential if the NHL/hockey world invested more into getting even better data.

I didn't watch all 59 games Flip played before joining the Flyers, but I watched a good portion and went to a few games while I was in Tampa. Those games aren't relevant to how he played for the Flyers, but they are relevant for predicting future success. And right now, that is for the Flyers. Those 59 games for Tampa will be more influential to predicting his future success than the 20 games he played for the Flyers.

Sure some of the data is flawed, and that will likely always be the case. But to dismiss analytics is completely foolish. I spend most of my time developing predictive models for companies using data that is just as flawed as the data in hockey analytics, if not more flawed. It doesn't stop these companies from using it as it saves them tons of money. Over a large sample size, the influence of these flaws can be reduced to nothing, which is one of the reasons it is so important to not put a lot of stock in a small one. Like the 20 games Flip played for the Flyers last year.
- JFlyers00

Who has dismissed analytics completely? I don't care about predicting his future play. The context of the conversation was about how he played for the Flyers in my view. NHL teams have access to different data and different analytics than what we have access to.

That is false. Nobody has stated that analytics are right or wrong. I've simply stated that these numbers are used improperly and the analysis of these numbers is what is wrong. That is further reinforced by your comments above. None of those numbers are capable of pointing out that Filppula performed poorly defensively. They are team numbers. None of those numbers are capable of isolating Filppula from his teammates.



When it comes to an eye test and an opinion offered on that, nobody can link to a chart or a website, or any data outside of analytics to support that opinion. So that statement is disingenuous. In my opinion a quality analysis of a player is made up of observation of a player from an informed source combined with analytics as supportive data for or against. Any analysis based purely on anlaytics or giving a high amount of weight to that analysis will be flawed. You can put any onus on it that you want.
- MJL

The narrative that certain players are dragging down their line mates because of certain stats representing the 5 man group on the ice is getting so tiring. Show me the videos of Filppula making these mistakes and lapses of judgement that these stats are supposed to cumulatively illustrate. Be sure to blur the faces out from anyone involved in the plays that the stats community thinks highly of. They're just getting dragged down by their line mates.

Honestly based on what will be available come Expansion draft Day, Matt Read will be among the top players available.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

Then Vegas is going to be really bad

- jmatchett383

frat boys

I never watch the games. I just sit on my computer and keep hitting refresh so I can see the up to date data.
- PhillySportsGuy

Calm down Rain Man.

Yes, that is the concerning part of this
- YuenglingJagr

Even if that was the case, you can make the argument that Gordon failed. Imo, they under-performed given the talent that was on the roster.

The narrative that certain players are dragging down their line mates because of certain stats representing the 5 man group on the ice is getting so tiring. Show me the videos of Filppula making these mistakes and lapses of judgement that these stats are supposed to cumulatively illustrate. Be sure to blur the faces out from anyone involved in the plays that the stats community thinks highly of. They're just getting dragged down by their line mates.
- Baxter27

Yet when a player some like and support such as Gostisbehere, they'll make excuse after excuse for him and blame the coach when there is clear evidence of how his fundamentals of playing the position completely broke down. Now to be fair it's a different situation and really it's hard to compare a veteran to a 2nd year player. The point is that really some players are given the benefit of the doubt and some aren't. Another example is that Schenn is not a good 5 on 5 player when he's put up solid 5 on 5 scoring totals in the past and ignoring that the entire team was poor in 5 on 5 scoring. Certainly each player contributes to that at some level. In my opinion there are very small percentage of players in the NHL who are capable of playing to the level where their analytic numbers are a comprehensive look at their contribution to them.

Yet when a player some like and support such as Gostisbehere, they'll make excuse after excuse for him and blame the coach when there is clear evidence of how his fundamentals of playing the position completely broke down. Now to be fair it's a different situation and really it's hard to compare a veteran to a 2nd year player. The point is that really some players are given the benefit of the doubt and some aren't. Another example is that Schenn is not a good 5 on 5 player when he's put up solid 5 on 5 scoring totals in the past and ignoring that the entire team was poor in 5 on 5 scoring. Certainly each player contributes to that at some level. In my opinion there are very small percentage of players in the NHL who are capable of playing to the level where their analytic numbers are a comprehensive look at their contribution to them.
- MJL

Ghost gets the benefit of the doubt because he was great in his 1st year. Filp is in decline and has been for a few years. Still a solid player, just don't ask him to play a shutdown role. Schenn has NEVER been a strong or consistent 5 v 5 scorer. Only twice in his career has he scored more than 10 5 v 5 goals in a season. 2013-14 and 2015-16 where he scored 14.

Ghost gets the benefit of the doubt because he was great in his 1st year. Filp is in decline and has been for a few years. Still a solid player, just don't ask him to play a shutdown role. Schenn has NEVER been a strong or consistent 5 v 5 scorer. Only twice in his career has he scored more than 10 5 v 5 goals in a season. 2013-14 and 2015-16 where he scored 14.
- Mordecai

Giving someone the benefit of the doubt does not make the issues he had this past season non existent. They pretend like a lot of the problems he had that lead to his benching didn't exist and the coach was in error for that. Schenn has been a developing and growing player who has put up decent numbers including putting up top 60 scoring totals among forwards at 5 on 5 in 15/16. Now he regressed with the rest of the team last season and he is now labeled as a poor 5 on 5 player rather than just having a subpar season. Where the lack of consistency is, is obvious.

Giving someone the benefit of the doubt does not make the issues he had this past season non existent. They pretend like a lot of the problems he had that lead to his benching didn't exist and the coach was in error for that. Schenn has been a developing and growing player who has put up decent numbers including putting up top 60 scoring totals among forwards at 5 on 5 in 15/16. Now he regressed with the rest of the team last season and he is now labeled as a poor 5 on 5 player rather than just having a subpar season. Where the lack of consistency is, is obvious.
- MJL

I can only speak for myself but I don't recall anyone blatantly ignoring Ghost's struggles. Only conversations that he is likely to bounce back to a more respectable level of play. Honestly the "trade Ghost" crowd was the louder camp. Schenn's numbers are inconsistent. He puts up 14 5 v 5 goals in 2013-14 which is a sizeable increase from 6 the previous year. Goes on to score 9 5 v 5 goals in 2014-15 then bounces back up to 14 in 2015-16 then plummets to a whopping 4 5v5 goals this past season.

He's basically worth $2M (I would argue more), so you're talking about eating about $1M this season in order to keep him. Seems stupid to get rid of him when he's one of your best 12 forwards.
- PhillySportsGuy

unless they get a taker via trade or he is taken in the expansion draft, i would keep him.

I can only speak for myself but I don't recall anyone blatantly ignoring Ghost's struggles. Only conversations that he is likely to bounce back to a more respectable level of play. Honestly the "trade Ghost" crowd was the louder camp. Schenn's numbers are inconsistent. He puts up 14 5 v 5 goals in 2013-14 which is a sizeable increase from 6 the previous year. Goes on to score 9 5 v 5 goals in 2014-15 then bounces back up to 14 in 2015-16 then plummets to a whopping 4 5v5 goals this past season.
- Mordecai

His struggles were multi faceted. Many of the problems that he had were ignored or some just didn't recognize them. There's more to ES scoring than goals. I would expect a young developing player to have inconsistent numbers. Most veteran players have inconsistent numbers. Pretty much the entire team struggled at 5 on 5 last season with a few exceptions.

His struggles were multi faceted. Many of the problems that he had were ignored or some just didn't recognize them. There's more to ES scoring than goals. I would expect a young developing player to have inconsistent numbers. Most veteran players have inconsistent numbers. Pretty much the entire team struggled at 5 on 5 last season with a few exceptions.
- MJL

Sure I can agree with the Schenn thing. Not saying he's a bad piece to have by any means.