My only disdain for coots is he can't seem to stay healthy for 82 games. He's never taken the time to round out his physique so this doesn't happen. It's been what 5 years ?
- Tfaehner

I know they went on the streak while he was out this year, but for the most part, I think this team is a much better team when he is in the line up. So yeah, him being out of the line up hurts. I really don't know much about his conditioning for the season or his physique, so I can't comment.

The fact that you put all 5 of them in the same category is the problem. Raffl and Read are on another level compared to the other guys. You're talking about very good bottom six players vs terrible bottom six players (Weise is more in between).
- PhillySportsGuy

Weise is a (frank)ing champ. Don't you slander him. His late season surge was instrumental in getting #2. Season MVP.

He was really starting to regress with the Lightning. He was downright awful with the Flyers last year. Every player struggled when he was their linemate.

I like to hope that he'll rebound, but I felt the same way about Vinny and Umberger
- PhillySportsGuy

Filppula's role in Tampa changed to a bit less of a scoring-oriented role as young players (Kucherov, Namestnikov and Johnson) began to emerge. Last season, with Stamkos out most of the year, he had a respectable 34 points in 59 games with a healthy percentage coming at even strength. With the Flyers he had five goals in 20 games and created more scoring chances than his three assists would suggest.

The bottom line with Filppula is that he produced 42 points last year, which is certainly doable again for the one season left on his contract.

And, no, I don't particularly care what the shot attempt differential numbers were in his case. If you closely watch him play when he has the puck, you will notice that he often holds onto the puck as long as possible rather than blindly throwing into traffic or from a bad angle. Often that means that no shot attempt results from the shift.

According to most on this forum, Bellemare is a guy who doesnt belong in the NHL.


For me personally, its not a problem that they have a Bellemare, a Vandevelde, a Read, a Weise, a Raffl... the problem is that they have ALL of them and their aggregate production falls woefully short of what is needed for a steady playoff team.
- Doc_Sarcasm

I think they can be an improved team with Raffl, Read and Weise in the lineup. If Bellemare and VDV aren't in the starting line up and 2 of Raffl, Read and Weise are on the 4th line. Isn't that a much better lineup?

Sooo.. why did Raffl put up 11 points in 52(ish) games last year?
- Doc_Sarcasm

He had a rough year scoring last year. He still put up stellar possession numbers and his normal even strength scoring rate is that of a low end 2nd liner or high end 3rd liner based on the previous 3 seasons.

Even in his worst career year by far, Raffl's scoring rate was still twice as high as Bellemares.

Filppula's role in Tampa changed to a bit less of a scoring-oriented role as young players (Kucherov, Namestnikov and Johnson) began to emerge. Last season, with Stamkos out most of the year, he had a respectable 34 points in 59 games with a healthy percentage coming at even strength. With the Flyers he had five goals in 20 games and created more scoring chances than his three assists would suggest.

The bottom line with Filppula is that he produced 42 points last year, which is certainly doable again for the one season left on his contract.

And, no, I don't particularly care what the shot attempt differential numbers were in his case. If you closely watch him play when he has the puck, you will notice that he often holds onto the puck as long as possible rather than blindly throwing into traffic or from a bad angle. Often that means that no shot attempt results from the shift.
- bmeltzer

Yeah i saw this too from him. I thought he brought a playmaking element to the team that was lacking. Thought he transitioned well

He had a rough year scoring last year. He still put up stellar possession numbers and his normal even strength scoring rate is that of a low end 2nd liner or high end 3rd liner based on the previous 3 seasons.

Even in his worst career year by far, Raffl's scoring rate was still twice as high as Bellemares.
- PhillySportsGuy

How often did bellemare get to play on girouxs line. Throw corsi out

Love ghost and all but see you later buddy

He had a rough year scoring last year. He still put up stellar possession numbers and his normal even strength scoring rate is that of a low end 2nd liner or high end 3rd liner based on the previous 3 seasons.

Even in his worst career year by far, Raffl's scoring rate was still twice as high as Bellemares.
- PhillySportsGuy

The point remains, they have too many guys who underachieve on this team. Too many guys who do one or two things well but are not well rounded players.

Love ghost and all but see you later buddy
- Just5

Are you buying into Ek's rumors? I thought he was going to Colorado? Now it's Tampa?

Filppula's role in Tampa changed to a bit less of a scoring-oriented role as young players (Kucherov, Namestnikov and Johnson) began to emerge. Last season, with Stamkos out most of the year, he had a respectable 34 points in 59 games with a healthy percentage coming at even strength. With the Flyers he had five goals in 20 games and created more scoring chances than his three assists would suggest.

The bottom line with Filppula is that he produced 42 points last year, which is certainly doable again for the one season left on his contract.

And, no, I don't particularly care what the shot attempt differential numbers were in his case. If you closely watch him play when he has the puck, you will notice that he often holds onto the puck as long as possible rather than blindly throwing into traffic or from a bad angle. Often that means that no shot attempt results from the shift.
- bmeltzer

My concerns with him have less to do with his offensive prowess and more to do with his defensive limitations. He really struggled defensively in Tampa and those same problems surfaced in Philly.

Corsica is renovating their site so I can't use it right now, but they track scoring chances, high danger scoring chances and their xGF statistic has proven to be pretty reliable. Filppula scored poorly in all of those metrics as well. If his holding the puck was truly increasing scoring chances while decreasing shot metrics, it would have shown up in those numbers. It didn't.

If you want to make the case that Filppula will be better next year because he may have been injured, he may have been unhappy in his role with the lightning, he needed to get acclimated to the Flyers or all of the above, then that's perfectly reasonable. I just can't get behind the idea that he helped the Flyers in any way last year.

If anything, it was Weal who powered the team down the stretch.

The point remains, they have too many guys who underachieve on this team. Too many guys who do one or two things well but are not well rounded players.
- Doc_Sarcasm

Agreed. That's why I'm in favor of trading guys like Schenn and Simmonds for youth.

Weise is a (frank)ing champ. Don't you slander him. His late season surge was instrumental in getting #2. Season MVP.
- Mononoke

I hate that we gave him such a long-term deal. I bet we barely outbid Garth Snow

I think they can be an improved team with Raffl, Read and Weise in the lineup. If Bellemare and VDV aren't in the starting line up and 2 of Raffl, Read and Weise are on the 4th line. Isn't that a much better lineup?
- FlyerFan16

Assuming that you are getting production out of the guys who replace them, farther up in the line combinations, sure. They point is, whoever replaces them has to be better than they were.

Its the same thing on D. The kids who come in next year don't have to be superstars, but they do need to be better than Schultz (who only played.. 30 games?), MDZ, and Streit.

How often did bellemare get to play on girouxs line. Throw corsi out
- Just5

To be fair, Giroux was one of the worst even strength scorers on the team last year





(Also, in this case Corsi would be a better indicator of play than points simply because they played with different players)

Agreed. That's why I'm in favor of trading guys like Schenn and Simmonds for youth.
- PhillySportsGuy

As long as an appropriate amount of skill comes along with the youth, I wouldnt treat any of the veterans on this team as untouchable.

As long as an appropriate amount of skill comes along with the youth, I wouldnt treat any of the veterans on this team as untouchable.
- Doc_Sarcasm

I don't know what this means. Don't trade for unskilled players?

I don't know what this means. Don't trade for unskilled players?
- PhillySportsGuy

Filppula's crafty skill and ability to create some individual offense was obvious on a team without many like him -- and that's what people latch onto, in small samples especially -- but he was pretty awful defensively and bled shots (and goals) against, which has nothing to do with holding onto pucks, which is a fair argument for lower shots for, although other players don't usually have this issue with this skill-set. Things balance. If you're just looking for perfect plays every time, that's not good hockey either, unless you're Patrick Roy.

He did grade out better in scoring chances for (only for, to ignore defense) -- though interestingly graded out poorly in high danger chances for, so idk what that means for the perfect play theory. But he was indeed pretty brutal in scoring chances against. He was flat-out poor in Philadelphia in everything, so I don't know what you can point to there, but new team, fine. I'm just using his Tampa stats, where he was right near the bottom. If you want to say he played with guys like Drouin.....well, they did better without him. Possession stats and the like aren't 1-way streets with just offense. You need to play defense too, and I imagine people who don't value analytics as highly as others tend place large value on being "reliable" and sound defensively. But all we heard was what a great 2-way shutdown center Flip was.

Again, I see no reason Flip, flaws aside, can't be a respectable top 9 player on this team, getting his 35-40 points for just 1 year. A full camp will help acclimate. But to me I don't think his skills at center, other than face-offs, are quite there, and I'd prefer him on the wing if possible with the #2 pick in the fold.

Assuming that you are getting production out of the guys who replace them, farther up in the line combinations, sure. They point is, whoever replaces them has to be better than they were.

Its the same thing on D. The kids who come in next year don't have to be superstars, but they do need to be better than Schultz (who only played.. 30 games?), MDZ, and Streit.
- Doc_Sarcasm

I am assuming one is Weal, since Raffl was basically out of the line up at the end of the year. And assuming the other is the 2nd pick. A lot of assumptions but just optimistic they can have a better lineup this year. I'm not naive enough to think one of them would be replacing Bellemare.

EDIT: Lindblom could very well be replacing one of them higher in the lineup as well.

I know they went on the streak while he was out this year, but for the most part, I think this team is a much better team when he is in the line up. So yeah, him being out of the line up hurts. I really don't know much about his conditioning for the season or his physique, so I can't comment.
- FlyerFan16

I agree I like coots. As they pointed out over the last two seasons (where he got more physical and became a more complete player and played in front the net) He was injured. I think his skill set he's more a dirty areas guy. I personally think he never filled out his frame and will continue to struggle to stay healthy and avoid injuries if he plays the style he plays and plays the way we want him to. I think he can be a 2c in this league if he stays healthy.

My concerns with him have less to do with his offensive prowess and more to do with his defensive limitations. He really struggled defensively in Tampa and those same problems surfaced in Philly.

Corsica is renovating their site so I can't use it right now, but they track scoring chances, high danger scoring chances and their xGF statistic has proven to be pretty reliable. Filppula scored poorly in all of those metrics as well. If his holding the puck was truly increasing scoring chances while decreasing shot metrics, it would have shown up in those numbers. It didn't.

If you want to make the case that Filppula will be better next year because he may have been injured, he may have been unhappy in his role with the lightning, he needed to get acclimated to the Flyers or all of the above, then that's perfectly reasonable. I just can't get behind the idea that he helped the Flyers in any way last year.

If anything, it was Weal who powered the team down the stretch.
- PhillySportsGuy

I was t-t-t-typing away on my post. We said the same thing basically.

https://www.naturalstattr...pfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=82

More difficult to navigate and get what you want, but stats are stats.....unless they're not stats.

I agree I like coots. As they pointed out over the last two seasons (where he got more physical and became a more complete player and played in front the net) He was injured. I think his skill set he's more a dirty areas guy. I personally think he never filled out his frame and will continue to struggle to stay healthy and avoid injuries if he plays the style he plays and plays the way we want him to. I think he can be a 2c in this league if he stays healthy.
- Tfaehner

He was concussed by Rinaldo on a dirty hit and knee on kneed by Trocheck. Those seem like fluke injuries to me and nothing to do with filling out a frame. He's a bull down low on the puck and pretty filled out. He's already like 215lbs.

I was t-t-t-typing away on my post. We said the same thing basically.

https://www.naturalstattr...pfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=82

More difficult to navigate and get what you want, but stats are stats.....unless they're not stats.
- Mononoke

When I looked at the Lightning's numbers over the last few years, one thing that really stands out is just how good Kucherov is. He's legit worth $9-10M per year (obviously not with the compensation attached). I just don't understand why teams sit around and let things like that deal happen though. Yzerman is getting $5-6M of surplus value for 3 seasons.

He was concussed by Rinaldo on a dirty hit and knee on kneed by Trocheck. Those seem like fluke injuries to me and nothing to do with filling out a frame. He's a bull down low on the puck and pretty filled out. He's already like 215lbs.
- Mononoke

He rarely missed games as a skinny teenager in the NHL, so I don't think it's a physique thing either