I'll explain my point. Before even being signed by the Flyers there was interest from a number of different NHL teams including the Chicago Blackhawks I believe. Since then he has gained the trust of 2 NHL coaches and played big roles on World Championship and World Cup teams. There was also interest in him at the TDL.

The stats that are being used to degrade him as a player are being selected by those with a preconceived bias that he doesn't belong on the Flyers. Not to honestly evaluate the player. It's been communicated many times that it's not his role to score on the Flyers yet everyone's favourite stat points out how little he scores. I have to wonder if those who continue point this out think all these other hockey minds are ignoring this fact with blind ignorance or perhaps see other benefits to Bellemare as a player?
- Baxter27

It isn't like he is playing on Team Canada. And he also was fantastic in the SEL, so interest elsewhere is expected.

Here is my take on Bellemare. I think he would be better if deployed differently. I think he suffers from being stapled to Chris Vandevelde, in just about every measure. I do think he improves a bit without VDV and especially if he gets moved to the wing. He moves well, seems like a great guy, and has shown some ability to do things offensively that should lead to goals.

So what is the problem then? Well the problem is usage. I don't care if his role isn't to score because you can complain about how much he gets scored on too. That isn't an excuse. I don't think the Flyers team is good enough to support a line that supposedly isn't supposed to score. So while that might work for another team or in an interntional tournament, it isn't good for the Flyers. The Flyers obviously believe that role is important for him to be in and have paid him like it. I think that is a problem, and if PEB gets blamed for some of it, well so be it.

But yes, I don't work for an NHL team so there is no way I am right. I mean the Flyers missed the playoffs and struggled to score for almost the entire season, but maybe year 4 will be different...

it isn't a legitimate hockey conversation. it is you repeatedly dancing around ideas that are based on what has actually happened so far this season/offseason to avoid saying you're wrong. and me making fun of it by posting gifs.

Hextall didn't get backed into a corner to pay a guy as more than a backup, as you've said, while at the same time wanting someone on the team next year to be more than a backup, as you've said.

That makes no sense, which is why I said something about it. The intent wasn't to talk about it for 3 pages when it is obviously going nowhere.
- YuenglingJagr[obligatory statement about how I should know that by now]

Stating that discussing why the Flyers re-signed Neuvirth and for how much isn't a legitimate hockey conversation is ignorant. Of course it's a legitimate conversation. You just don't like what I've offered as my opinion. Stating that I'm dancing around what has actually happened is laughable when my entire premise is based on the Flyers actually have re-signed Neuvirth. That has actually happened!
Your excluding the possibility that Hextall liked Neuvirth better than any other option that was available to him at the time. You don't even know what was available to him. You're just speculating. Like I said, we can use that method to question every move a GM makes. It's non sensical. The leverage that Neuvirth had in the situation is obvious.

No one is forcing you to have this converstion. Secondly, you routinely break down a simple hockey conversation with me into this nonsense. If you're not capable of having a reasonable conversation without making it personal, then you don't have to get involved.

I just want to say that, when compared to other 4th line players across the NHL, Boyd Gordon was not a good player.

Compared to the average person world-wide, he is an exceptionally talented hockey player.
- jmatchett383

it is important to always remember this

Stating that discussing why the Flyers re-signed Neuvirth and for how much isn't a legitimate hockey conversation is ignorant. Of course it's a legitimate conversation. You just don't like what I've offered as my opinion. Stating that I'm dancing around what has actually happened is laughable when my entire premise is based on the Flyers actually have re-signed Neuvirth. That has actually happened!
Your excluding the possibility that Hextall liked Neuvirth better than any other option that was available to him at the time. You don't even know what was available to him. You're just speculating. Like I said, we can use that method to question every move a GM makes. It's non sensical. The leverage that Neuvirth had in the situation is obvious.

No one is forcing you to have this converstion. Secondly, you routinely break down a simple hockey conversation with me into this nonsense. If you're not capable of having a reasonable conversation without making it personal, then you don't have to get involved.
- MJL

I like PEB. I think having to center VdV and a revolving door of right wings did him no favors. I actually think he'll do better at ES playing LW and if they put him with a decent center and RW, which they should be able to do, I think he can put up 8-10 goals. I also think he could be a more effective PKer if he was partnered with a more effective player rather than a glorified AHLer like VdV.
- BiggE

Agreed on all points. Hoping to see him more on the wing in 2017/2018.

- YuenglingJagr

My point exactly!

How about:
Bieksa +Montour/Manson (I'd prefer Manson) for Raffl + 3rd???

If the Flyers are taking Bieksa on and 1/3 over 2 years, I want either a high pick or a player that we can slot in right now.

They'd probably prefer to trade one of Fowler/Vatanen to get a better return, but they still have to move Bieksa as well unless they want to lose a good forward with the 4/4/1 scheme.
- jmatchett383

tough to say what they will do....The defensive depth has always been an asset for them. There isn't a chance in hell I would let Fowler go, IMHO

important to note that Bieksa's entire cap hit would stay because he is over 35, they just get to pay out his salary over 2 years

My point exactly!
- MJL

was it? cool...good to know

Gordon was signed to be a 4C or 13th forward, but his body broke down so he got sent to the AHL. His $950,000 cap hit wasn't an accident.
- Feanor

Again, like Bellemare, it is less about Boyd Gordon, and more that it's a role they think is important for them

tough to say what they will do....The defensive depth has always been an asset for them. There isn't a chance in hell I would let Fowler go, IMHO

important to note that Bieksa's entire cap hit would stay because he is over 35, they just get to pay out his salary over 2 years
- YuenglingJagr

Then I would definitely require a young, cheap player in return if I'm taking him...or it would have to be a good draft package (either 1st, which they don't have, or multiple 2nds) coming with him.

Then I would definitely require a young, cheap player in return if I'm taking him...or it would have to be a good draft package (either 1st, which they don't have, or multiple 2nds) coming with him.
- jmatchett383

yeah I doubt it happens, but it would be way to help get a 3rd defenseman cheaper than usual

yeah I doubt it happens, but it would be way to help get a 3rd defenseman cheaper than usual
- YuenglingJagr

I think it would be worth exploring. However, if they were to move one of Fowler/Vatanen, they could probably absorb the Bieksa buyout ($2M per year/2 years) with room to spare.

It isn't like he is playing on Team Canada. And he also was fantastic in the SEL, so interest elsewhere is expected.

Here is my take on Bellemare. I think he would be better if deployed differently. I think he suffers from being stapled to Chris Vandevelde, in just about every measure. I do think he improves a bit without VDV and especially if he gets moved to the wing. He moves well, seems like a great guy, and has shown some ability to do things offensively that should lead to goals.

So what is the problem then? Well the problem is usage. I don't care if his role isn't to score because you can complain about how much he gets scored on too. That isn't an excuse. I don't think the Flyers team is good enough to support a line that supposedly isn't supposed to score. So while that might work for another team or in an interntional tournament, it isn't good for the Flyers. The Flyers obviously believe that role is important for him to be in and have paid him like it. I think that is a problem, and if PEB gets blamed for some of it, well so be it.

But yes, I don't work for an NHL team so there is no way I am right. I mean the Flyers missed the playoffs and struggled to score for almost the entire season, but maybe year 4 will be different...
- YuenglingJagr

Was the Team Europe he played a big role on not the runner up next to a dominant Team Canada who they also gave a run for their money?

Bellemare is signed for the next 2 years on what hopefully looks like a very different Flyers team to this past season. I agree there are some improvements needed in his deployment but constant belly aching about a player being resigned who the organization values as a quality person and player is tiring.

My intention is not to disregard your opinion. More so to show there are many others in the hockey world who view Bellemare a valuable piece to a team. And they're likely more qualified and informed than you, myself or any other poster on here to make those decisions.

I think it would be worth exploring. However, if they were to move one of Fowler/Vatanen, they could probably absorb the Bieksa buyout ($2M per year/2 years) with room to spare.
- jmatchett383

no what I mean is that the cap hit is 4 million for next season, 0 million for the season after that

fun to think about the Flyers using cap space as an asset now

no what I mean is that the cap hit is 4 million for next season, 0 million for the season after that

fun to think about the Flyers using cap space as an asset now
- YuenglingJagr

Ah, gotcha. Still, as long as they're set of infusing some youth into the system, the losses on MDZ/Mason/Schultz and possibly one of Read/Raffl to the ED, they'd have space.

Actually, if they're on the hook for his full cap hit for one year, may as well either keep him as your 6/7D or waive him and get some relief ($950K, I think).

My intention is not to disregard your opinion. More so to show there are many others in the hockey world who view Bellemare a valuable piece to a team. And they're likely more qualified and informed than you, myself or any other poster on here to make those decisions.
- Baxter27

That isn't really up for debate. It is known. I just don't think it means I shouldn't have an opinion or that it is wrong. I think following hockey would be a lot more boring if I just agreed with everything that happened. The list of mistakes that people in the hockey world have made is extensive.

Ah, gotcha. Still, as long as they're set of infusing some youth into the system, the losses on MDZ/Mason/Schultz and possibly one of Read/Raffl to the ED, they'd have space.

Actually, if they're on the hook for his full cap hit for one year, may as well either keep him as your 6/7D or waive him and get some relief ($950K, I think).
- jmatchett383

If he waives his NMC, yeah.

That isn't really up for debate. It is known. I just don't think it means I shouldn't have an opinion or that it is wrong. I think following hockey would be a lot more boring if I just agreed with everything that happened. The list of mistakes that people in the hockey world have made is extensive.
- YuenglingJagr

Someone on here does not share your belief.

If he waives his NMC, yeah.
- YuenglingJagr

Oh...right. My bad. Was thinking NTC.

Still, like I said, if it resulted in the Flyers gaining other assets, I'd keep him as a 7D.

In regards to Fowler. It is another look into what the downside of signing a guy coming off his ELC to a 4/5 year contract can be

LOCK HIM UP

That isn't really up for debate. It is known. I just don't think it means I shouldn't have an opinion or that it is wrong. I think following hockey would be a lot more boring if I just agreed with everything that happened. The list of mistakes that people in the hockey world have made is extensive.
- YuenglingJagr

Absolutely, For example- there are many decisions Hakstol made this season that'd I'd disagree with however when a blunt statement such as the Bellemare signing is rightly criticized it's fair to point out there are many more qualified opinions that likely disagree with that.

I'll explain my point. Before even being signed by the Flyers there was interest from a number of different NHL teams including the Chicago Blackhawks I believe. Since then he has gained the trust of 2 NHL coaches and played big roles on World Championship and World Cup teams. There was also interest in him at the TDL.

The stats that are being used to degrade him as a player are being selected by those with a preconceived bias that he doesn't belong on the Flyers. Not to honestly evaluate the player. It's been communicated many times that it's not his role to score on the Flyers yet everyone's favourite stat points out how little he scores. I have to wonder if those who continue point this out think all these other hockey minds are ignoring this fact with blind ignorance or perhaps see other benefits to Bellemare as a player?
- Baxter27

Bellemare is a plug and a subpar one. This is not cherry picking stats. If that is the case, show me the stats that demonstrate he is a good player deserving of that contract. You can't, because you drink the company koolaid that play away from the puck is enough. Sorry, time to think differently about that fourth line role, especially considering the money they're paying him. The fact is the Flyers value all that intangible bull crap way too highly. Good locker room guy! Takes the body! Ooohhh look how chippy along the boards! He does what his coach says! Giving premium dollars and premium term to that limited "skill set" is not a good move in today's game.

But keep using the flawed logic of "because NHL teams/coaches do" it is therefore correct. The rest of us are looking for a cheaper version of that player that can actually put up a few meaningful points throughout the year as well. Let the other boneheaded teams and GM's keep making that mistake.

It isn't like he is playing on Team Canada. And he also was fantastic in the SEL, so interest elsewhere is expected.

Here is my take on Bellemare. I think he would be better if deployed differently. I think he suffers from being stapled to Chris Vandevelde, in just about every measure. I do think he improves a bit without VDV and especially if he gets moved to the wing. He moves well, seems like a great guy, and has shown some ability to do things offensively that should lead to goals.

So what is the problem then? Well the problem is usage. I don't care if his role isn't to score because you can complain about how much he gets scored on too. That isn't an excuse. I don't think the Flyers team is good enough to support a line that supposedly isn't supposed to score. So while that might work for another team or in an interntional tournament, it isn't good for the Flyers. The Flyers obviously believe that role is important for him to be in and have paid him like it. I think that is a problem, and if PEB gets blamed for some of it, well so be it.

But yes, I don't work for an NHL team so there is no way I am right. I mean the Flyers missed the playoffs and struggled to score for almost the entire season, but maybe year 4 will be different...
- YuenglingJagr

Bellemare for the most part was used as a 4th line forward and PKer, so in my opinion you're wrong in stating that his usage was an issue. I also think you're looking at it ass backwards. In my opinion, Bellemare is a good enough player to play a 4th line role on a quality team. If the other lines aren't good enough to support a line that doesn't score then the focus should really be on making those lines better. That's where the main issue is. The Flyers first line center score 18 points at 5 on 5 I also believe that if that is done and the talent level around Bellemare is improved then Bellemare can produce more offensively.

Again, like Bellemare, it is less about Boyd Gordon, and more that it's a role they think is important for them
- YuenglingJagr

Think about level of importance. They signed him to a cheap one year deal. The potential of adding a veteran 4th line player who can play on the PK and be successful on draws was a need.

Someone on here does not share your belief.
- jmatchett383

Who would that be?