Fans of analytics will say that special teams don't matter because most of the game is played 5v5 but its a broad generalization because, like last night, they don't give any insight into when a special teams may or may not have had an effect...they'll also say that faceoffs don't matter even when it leads to immediate puck possession whtich is the Valhalla of the analytics movement...

and in pure Aristotelian fashion, they ultimately deny an intangible like momentum as it's impossible to chart and therefore quantify...just ask mike schopp
- Michael Pachla

****0 people have said "they don't matter"

Fans of analytics will say that special teams don't matter because most of the game is played 5v5 but its a broad generalization because, like last night, they don't give any insight into when a special teams may or may not have had an effect...they'll also say that faceoffs don't matter even when it leads to immediate puck possession whtich is the Valhalla of the analytics movement...

and in pure Aristotelian fashion, they ultimately deny an intangible like momentum as it's impossible to chart and therefore quantify...just ask mike schopp
- Michael Pachla

There are a lot of presuppositions there.

This is obviously a heated battle, but it appears neither side is going to listen to the other.

Oddly, I'm squarely in the middle on this. That's unusual for me.

****0 people have said "they don't matter"
- sbroads24

So are you clarifying your position right now saying that five on five is what you consider to be the most important marker of success for a team.

And special teams play are important, just not as important?

****0 people have said "they don't matter"
- sbroads24

that's what I've gotten from what I've read...then again, I could be wrong....you've spent the last hours, days weeks, months arguing the very point by saying the winning team scored the only 5v5 goal with disregard for the game-winning goal that came on the powerplay

There are a lot of presuppositions there.

This is obviously a heated battle, but it appears neither side is going to listen to the other.

Oddly, I'm squarely in the middle on this. That's unusual for me.
- gcomella34

the game is the game...it's finding a weakness in the opposition to take advantage of...there's an ebb and flow to every game...the better team usually comes out on top when they find those weaknesses and will ride momentum when they have it and do everything in their power to get it back when they don't...those who've played organized sports, and have done so with any kind of passion and focus, know this to be true

So are you clarifying your position right now saying that five on five is what you consider to be the most important marker of success for a team.

And special teams play are important, just not as important?
- gcomella34

5 on 5 play is so much more important

For example-

Sabres with #1 PP had 57 PP goals
Philly with 14th ranked PP had 54 goals

Reason - Philly was better 5 on 5 which led to more PP opportunities.

Them being better 5 on 5 made our #1 PP pretty much the same as the #14 PP

5 on 5 play is so much more important

For example-

Sabres with #1 PP had 57 PP goals
Philly with 14th ranked PP had 54 goals

Reason - Philly was better 5 on 5 which led to more PP opportunities.

Them being better 5 on 5 made our #1 PP pretty much the same as the #14 PP
- sbroads24

If with this statement you're not saying Power Play DOESN'T matter this should end the argument.

Now we just need to determine HOW much the they matter as opposed to IF they matter.

the game is the game...it's finding a weakness in the opposition to take advantage of...there's an ebb and flow to every game...the better team usually comes out on top when they find those weaknesses and will ride momentum when they have it and do everything in their power to get it back when they don't...those who've played organized sports, and have done so with any kind of passion and focus, know this to be true
- Michael Pachla

No analytics at all, just a theory.

The team that has the puck, has the momentum.

If with this statement you're not saying Power Play DOESN'T matter this should end the argument.

Now we just need to determine HOW much the they matter as opposed to IF they matter.
- gcomella34

They matter, but only in extemes, or certain in-game situations.

It's easy to look at one certain event and claim it was the most important part of an outcome.

How long have we seen refs in this league attempt to even out PP's, especially in the post-season.

Focus on being a good 5 on 5 team, and the PP will more than likely be fine

****may people have said "they don't matter much"
- sbroads24

fify

If with this statement you're not saying Power Play DOESN'T matter this should end the argument.

Now we just need to determine HOW much the they matter as opposed to IF they matter.
- gcomella34

5 on 5 play 40%
pp 20%
pk 20%
goaltending 20%


I think it's pretty simple, but I think the sky is blue

No analytics at all, just a theory.

The team that has the puck, has the momentum.
- gcomella34

maybe...but not in all situations...killing off a 5v3 while down a goal changes the entire game....how many times have we seen a goalie or defender make an outstanding play in their zone which directly lead to their own goal a seconds or minutes...

that said, puck possession is a big indicator of who's in charge yet, it's what you do with it that ultimately matters

They matter, but only in extemes, or certain in-game situations.


- sbroads24

maybe...but not in all situations...killing off a 5v3 while down a goal changes the entire game....how many times have we seen a goalie or defender make an outstanding play in their zone which directly lead to their own goal a seconds or minutes...

that said, puck possession is a big indicator of who's in charge yet, it's what you do with it that ultimately matters
- Michael Pachla

any power play or pk can change the flow and eventual outcome of a game

- homiedclown

As usual, solid, fact based rebuttal

As usual, solid, fact based rebuttal
- sbroads24

I have to go to work

If the pens get 2 quick power play goals in the first period

It wont have much effect on who wins tonight

I have to go to work

If the pens get 2 quick power play goals in the first period

It wont have much effect on who wins tonight
- homiedclown

........

maybe...but not in all situations...killing off a 5v3 while down a goal changes the entire game....how many times have we seen a goalie or defender make an outstanding play in their zone which directly lead to their own goal a seconds or minutes...

that said, puck possession is a big indicator of who's in charge yet, it's what you do with it that ultimately matters
- Michael Pachla

How did all that momentum work for Washington when they won game 5 and 6, and scored a ton of goals?

Better yet, how did it work for Pitt in game 4 when they scored 2 goals in the final minutes to tie it, then quickly lost in OT?

Momentum is a horribly misused term.

I have to go to work

If the pens get 2 quick power play goals in the first period

It wont have much effect on who wins tonight
- homiedclown

Pens are 0-6 on the PP this series.
Sens are 0-3 on the PP

They must still be in OT

Pens are 0-6 on the PP this series.
Sens are 0-3 on the PP

They must still be in OT
- sbroads24

I did place a value on the 4 categorys

Still waiting for a response

I did place a value on the 4 categorys

Still waiting for a response
- homiedclown

I gave #'s on how our #1 ranked PP was a 3 goal difference from the 14th PP. Got no response.

I think you and I are having similar but separate debates.

I agree, that in certain games/situations, PP/PK can win or lose a game for you.

My specific point, is that over time, it usually evens out, or takes a major backseat to 5 on 5 play.

Robin Lehner..doesn't...stink?

https://btbhockey.wordpre...e-real-statistical-story/
- TheSabresTaco

there is nothing surprising about this. i guessed the lehner dot without looking, but i had a pretty good idea going in. i guess the question is, is sam reinhart struggling 5v5 because he is not fast enough to create separation when there is an equal number of players on the ice? or is his 7 shooting percentage 5v5 something that will regress to the mean of roughly 11% next year?

there is nothing surprising about this. i guessed the lehner dot without looking, but i had a pretty good idea going in. i guess the question is, is sam reinhart struggling 5v5 because he is not fast enough to create separation when there is an equal number of players on the ice? or is his 7 shooting percentage 5v5 something that will regress to the mean of roughly 11% next year?
- rover16

My conclusion from these stats is that Lehner is doing more than fine. He’s
proved that he can be a starting goalie for Buffalo in the future, and I’m excited to see
what he can do with better defense in front of him. Reinhart on the other hand still has
some work to do. He needs to be a better finisher on even strength, but if he can do
that, he has the potential to be just as good as Draisaitl (perhaps not including the
“McDavid Effect”.
It’s very easy to rant about these players on a bad night, but Buffalo fans need to be
more accountable with really considering the facts before they blast players in a 140-
character rant."

Bolded is a giant eye-roll

- Matthews_Auston

Post of the day???