They can gripe all they want but if your team is near the bottom of the league and you aren't significantly turning over your roster you're doing something wrong.

It's illogical to dump all of your players when they have value to the team. You move as much as you can and you bring in new players and adjust your roster.

My problem with the Flyers would be that they aren't turning over enough of the roster.What the Leafs did to the Marlies in one season has taken the Flyers three. They seem to be clinging to role players like they can't be replaced and have invested fairly heavily in core players that can't find a way to win.

Look at the amount of Salary the Leafs had to eat to dig themselves out. They did it and it gutted the team into a last place finish but they did it all at once.

The Flyers will be doing the same thing but we're slowly pulling off band aids down here and it's feeling more like the Burke era Leafs than anything else. None of us want to slog through a decade like Leafs fans did.
- mayorofangrytown

Since Hextall has been GM, he's re-signed two players that would be considered core players in Voracek and Schenn. Should he have not re-signed them?

they have drafted in the top 10 4 out of the last 5 years. this perceived blowing it up overnight isn't exactly accurate.
- nastyflyergirl

It depends on if you consider it a rolling scheme. The first two of those years they were trying to build themselves back into a playoff team even though that core had quit on several coaches.

When the new owners brought Shannahan in he took part of a year to look at the team as a whole then the he gutted the front office, the scouts and the coaching staff. Then came the player dump. Just hand fulls of Marlies gone in every trade. He traded the highest paid Leafs at the same time he was gutting the farm system.

All of that happened within about 15 months.

Since Hextall has been GM, he's re-signed two players that would be considered core players in Voracek and Schenn. Should he have not re-signed them?
- MJL

I'm talking about the team as a whole, not just Hextall's reign.

I wasn't crazy about either contract to be honest. A big contract after one big season for voracek? I don't believe in Schenn being a difference maker at any time in the future. He's just more mediocrity.

They can gripe all they want but if your team is near the bottom of the league and you aren't significantly turning over your roster you're doing something wrong.

It's illogical to dump all of your players when they have value to the team. You move as much as you can and you bring in new players and adjust your roster.

My problem with the Flyers would be that they aren't turning over enough of the roster.What the Leafs did to the Marlies in one season has taken the Flyers three. They seem to be clinging to role players like they can't be replaced and have invested fairly heavily in core players that can't find a way to win.

Look at the amount of Salary the Leafs had to eat to dig themselves out. They did it and it gutted the team into a last place finish but they did it all at once.

The Flyers will be doing the same thing but we're slowly pulling off band aids down here and it's feeling more like the Burke era Leafs than anything else. None of us want to slog through a decade like Leafs fans did.
- mayorofangrytown

to be fair, drafting 1,4,8,21,5 makes it a little easier to overturn the roster than 22,7,17,11,20. couple with the Flyers have drafted heavy on defense and we all know, save Provorov, dmen take longer to develop. and seriously, what has Toronto done in the last, oh 50 years?

I'm good with Manning being back in but unless MDZ is hurt, why in the world isn't Schultz the one who is out???
- nastyflyergirl

Konecny to line 4; MDZ, who LED the team in ice time last game, sitting for Brandon "ManPlug" Manning; Schultz still in attached to Ghost's surgically repaired hip.

This has all the ingredients for a stealth tank, but I know deep down it's because Hakstol actually thinks this is their best lineup to win, which is wonderful to think about. But it's nothing new regarding his personnel usage. And none of it really matters, since anyone who is in the lineup will just take muffins from the blue line. It's interchangeable parts.

Since Hextall has been GM, he's re-signed two players that would be considered core players in Voracek and Schenn. Should he have not re-signed them?
- MJL

He has also resigned bellemare and Neuvy. I think this is the bigger problem.

Why resign Belle? Why resign Neuvy before even talking to Mason...

I think the fear is that we are taking a very long time to really start the climb. We are worse this year than last. Our core is getting older. I understand the fear..

I'm talking about the team as a whole, not just Hextall's reign.

I wasn't crazy about either contract to be honest. A big contract after one big season for voracek? I don't believe in Schenn being a difference maker at any time in the future. He's just more mediocrity.
- mayorofangrytown

OK.

That's fair.

So who would you have then replace their production if you let them walk?

how stupid was that? How do you not put someone in the box. I mean, anyone. i wish they would have lost because of it
- nastyflyergirl

Serious. I don't even know why the rule is written so you don't have to right away.

See these are all valid things to be upset with. Aside from that, the whole "this team needs to be blown up" or "there isnt a single good player" shtick gets tiring. We are two years away from having a lineup that features this group:

Forwards: G, Jake, Simmer, Couts, Schenn, Laughton (?), Lindblom, Rubtsov, Cousins (?)

Defense: Provy, Ghost, Sanheim, Myers, Morin, Hagg, Gudas....
- jak521

I'm enthusiastic with the prospects coming along, esp on defense

to be fair, drafting 1,4,8,21,5 makes it a little easier to overturn the roster than 22,7,17,11,20. couple with the Flyers have drafted heavy on defense and we all know, save Provorov, dmen take longer to develop. and seriously, what has Toronto done in the last, oh 50 years?
- nastyflyergirl

Thats the frustrating part... We have to watch Toronto make the playoffs this year while we continue to have this uneasy "growth from within". I can understand (not agree) with people wanting to trade a couple of guys, but thats just because people are not patient enough. This offseason cant come soon enough.

I'm talking about the team as a whole, not just Hextall's reign.

I wasn't crazy about either contract to be honest. A big contract after one big season for voracek? I don't believe in Schenn being a difference maker at any time in the future. He's just more mediocrity.
- mayorofangrytown

If you're going to look at the Flyers as a whole, then why not look at the Leafs as a whole if we're going to compare team's paths to this point?

Voracek had more than just one good season. Schenn's contract is not a contract that a difference maker receives.

to be fair, drafting 1,4,8,21,5 makes it a little easier to overturn the roster than 22,7,17,11,20. couple with the Flyers have drafted heavy on defense and we all know, save Provorov, dmen take longer to develop. and seriously, what has Toronto done in the last, oh 50 years?
- nastyflyergirl

Maybe I don't understand what this debate is about.

I don't want to be the Leafs fans over the past 50 years, I'll stick where I am thanks. I waded in on "did the Leafs blow it up?" For me, it's not really a debate.

Should the Flyers blow it up. Yeah, I think they should and I think they are already. Are they doing it fast enough for me. No. I'd like a new and better team right now. This crap is rarely entertaining.

Should they just trade everyone over 22. No. You can't pull that non sense. I just wish the players they ARE bringing in were a bit more intelligently selected than the dreck that's been brought in to tread water.l

Serious. I don't even know why the rule is written so you don't have to right away.
- Scoob

makes no sense but hey, NHL

I'm enthusiastic with the prospects coming along, esp on defense
- nastyflyergirl

poop I forgot TK in there and likely who ever we pick this year...

Also theres a few guys like Allison and Vorbyov who could potentially be up then as well..

He has also resigned bellemare and Neuvy. I think this is the bigger problem.

Why resign Belle? Why resign Neuvy before even talking to Mason...

I think the fear is that we are taking a very long time to really start the climb. We are worse this year than last. Our core is getting older. I understand the fear..
- jak521

Bellemare was a good re-signing. He's a good defensive forward who can skate and check, and is a character player. I don't know why they didn't talk to Mason, and that doesn't make sense to me. Personally I prefer Mason and don't trust Neuvirth, but I understand why they don't want to go into the off season without a veteran goalie signed.

I'm not at all surprised that fans are losing patience.

Since Hextall has been GM, he's re-signed two players that would be considered core players in Voracek and Schenn. Should he have not re-signed them?
- MJL

Belle and NoWorth was a must sign

Bellemare was a good re-signing. He's a good defensive forward who can skate and check, and is a character player. I don't know why they didn't talk to Mason, and that doesn't make sense to me. Personally I prefer Mason and don't trust Neuvirth, but I understand why they don't want to go into the off season without a veteran goalie signed.

I'm not at all surprised that fans are losing patience.
- MJL

I don't get the Bellemare hate? Guy is a solid veteran, especially as you have kids coming into the lineup as soon as next year. His contract doesn't do anything to affect the future roster moves.

If you're going to look at the Flyers as a whole, then why not look at the Leafs as a whole if we're going to compare team's paths to this point?

Voracek had more than just one good season. Schenn's contract is not a contract that a difference maker receives.
- MJL

The Flyers "core" is going no where fast. The question becomes can you draft and build around these guys or should they be making an attempt at moving some of them before they aren't moveable?

We've all been asking this same question going on two years.

The Leafs process reconstructed the organization over a two year period. The only comparison I want to make between them and the Flyers is the amount of time the Flyers are investing in this.

I'm not going to be 29 forever. I'm too bald and grey to keep telling people that.

Maybe I don't understand what this debate is about.

I don't want to be the Leafs fans over the past 50 years, I'll stick where I am thanks. I waded in on "did the Leafs blow it up?" For me, it's not really a debate.

Should the Flyers blow it up. Yeah, I think they should and I think they are already. Are they doing it fast enough for me. No. I'd like a new and better team right now. This crap is rarely entertaining.

Should they just trade everyone over 22. No. You can't pull that non sense. I just wish the players they ARE bringing in were a bit more intelligently selected than the dreck that's been brought in to tread water.l
- mayorofangrytown

it can be argued trading carter and richards for Schenn, Simmonds, 2nd (which was traded for Grossmann), Voracek and a first (Coots) and 3rd (Cousins) was blowing things up a bit. Jake was 22 to Carter's 26 and Schenn was 20 and Simmonds 23 to Richards 26. I'm not ready to just blow it up again. Doesn't mean I am against a trade of a core guy that makes them better. the defense absolutely needed to be blown up. adding Ghost and Provorov over the last 2 seasons gets that rolling.

The Flyers "core" is going no where fast. The question becomes can you draft and build around these guys or should they be making an attempt at moving some of them before they aren't moveable?

We've all been asking this same question going on two years.

The Leafs process reconstructed the organization over a two year period. The only comparison I want to make between them and the Flyers is the amount of time the Flyers are investing in this.

I'm not going to be 29 forever. I'm too bald and grey to keep telling people that.
- mayorofangrytown

You bald and grey at 29

The Flyers "core" is going no where fast. The question becomes can you draft and build around these guys or should they be making an attempt at moving some of them before they aren't moveable?

We've all been asking this same question going on two years.

The Leafs process reconstructed the organization over a two year period. The only comparison I want to make between them and the Flyers is the amount of time the Flyers are investing in this.

I'm not going to be 29 forever. I'm too bald and grey to keep telling people that.
- mayorofangrytown

Any core of players have to have the players around them. Also have to consider that the biggest part of the Flyers core had a poor season, that is hopefully related to the hip surgery. You're trying to compare apples to oranges here. Flyers have plenty of prospects that weren't ready to make the jump. The timing of the two teams is different. It's easy to see how Hextall operates and how he thinks. We'll know at some point how many players Hextall thinks are ready to make the jump by what he does. The role players the Flyers have employed are just bridges while the draft and develop process happens. When Hextall took over and announced his plans, it was known it was going to be a 3-5 year process if things work out right. If Hextall decides to trade any of the core players, that adds more time to the process unless they're were lucky enough to add some drafted players that fast track to the NHL and make an immediate impact.

Konecny to line 4; MDZ, who LED the team in ice time last game, sitting for Brandon "ManPlug" Manning; Schultz still in attached to Ghost's surgically repaired hip.

This has all the ingredients for a stealth tank, but I know deep down it's because Hakstol actually thinks this is their best lineup to win, which is wonderful to think about. But it's nothing new regarding his personnel usage. And none of it really matters, since anyone who is in the lineup will just take muffins from the blue line. It's interchangeable parts.
- Mononoke

Really is surprising when you consider that ice time is the key indicator in determining a defenseman's level of play

it can be argued trading carter and richards for Schenn, Simmonds, 2nd (which was traded for Grossmann), Voracek and a first (Coots) and 3rd (Cousins) was blowing things up a bit. Jake was 22 to Carter's 26 and Schenn was 20 and Simmonds 23 to Richards 26. I'm not ready to just blow it up again. Doesn't mean I am against a trade of a core guy that makes them better. the defense absolutely needed to be blown up. adding Ghost and Provorov over the last 2 seasons gets that rolling.
- nastyflyergirl

Agree, no need to make more than one core change like the deals you mentioned ( even though the Flyers did well). A deal must happen, change the culture, something isn't working with this group. Just because Jake and G are having poor seasons doesn't mean their trade value goes way down. Players and teams benefit from a change of scenery.
Hextall is due a good off season.

Any core of players have to have the players around them. Also have to consider that the biggest part of the Flyers core had a poor season, that is hopefully related to the hip surgery. You're trying to compare apples to oranges here. Flyers have plenty of prospects that weren't ready to make the jump. The timing of the two teams is different. It's easy to see how Hextall operates and how he thinks. We'll know at some point how many players Hextall thinks are ready to make the jump by what he does. The role players the Flyers have employed are just bridges while the draft and develop process happens. When Hextall took over and announced his plans, it was known it was going to be a 3-5 year process if things work out right. If Hextall decides to trade any of the core players, that adds more time to the process unless they're were lucky enough to add some drafted players that fast track to the NHL and make an immediate impact.
- MJL

It is a fascinating thing. Everyone was thrilled he was hired and that there would be no more band aide type fixes. Drafting and Developing.

But when you do this you need bridge guys. Vandevelde, Bellemare. Playing out the remaining days of Read. Lyubimov. These guys are cheap and fill roles until it's time to replace them.

Next season we will likely see two rookie defenders and maybe 2 rookie forwards. It's a gradual process.

In 2018 there will be a very attractive FA group. that is when hextall could strike to fill needs to help bring this thing forward.

it can be argued trading carter and richards for Schenn, Simmonds, 2nd (which was traded for Grossmann), Voracek and a first (Coots) and 3rd (Cousins) was blowing things up a bit. Jake was 22 to Carter's 26 and Schenn was 20 and Simmonds 23 to Richards 26. I'm not ready to just blow it up again. Doesn't mean I am against a trade of a core guy that makes them better. the defense absolutely needed to be blown up. adding Ghost and Provorov over the last 2 seasons gets that rolling.
- nastyflyergirl

See, but look at this roster... aren't they doing just that but slowly.

If they hang on to just 4 forwards and let everyone else go, that's pretty much blowing the thing up.

The difference between the Leafs and the Flyers is that we're adding all of our dynamic younger players to the back end. The Leafs are adding theirs up front. We're sort of the same thing but forwards are going to impact faster than D.

Soon the Leafs will need D to move forward and the Flyers will need forwards. It's kinda where we're both at. The Leafs just managed to move players out a lot faster.