Remember when we thought giroux would be better than crosby
- JoeRussomanno

No.

My preference is to watch high flying, entertaining offense.
- ggunky

That's fine, I have no issue with that. Personally, I like it when players entertain the notion of attempting to play defense.

Again, it was quality entertainment for the pure sideshow it became. But as an example of well-played hockey, aside from Games 5 and 6, it was a joke.

Entertaining? Yes, absolutely.

An abysmal display of defense, goaltending, and a general desire to prove how tough you were as opposed to proving how good you were, coupled with cheap shots, hair pulling, and sloppy systems for 4 out of the 6 games played was what I was referring to.

If you are going to score 60 goals and 120 points, the fine. I don't have an issue with that. But in that series, there was minimal focus to playing any kind of sound defense. The goaltending wasn't about quality of shots, it was about putrid goaltending, probably the worst I've ever seen in a best-of-7 series. Players were more intent of throwing cheap shots that actually winning the games.

Give me clean, hard-hitting, physical hockey any day of the week, but actually try to include playing some hockey, give me at least average quality goaltending, and players actually trying to win instead of caring who they can make leave on a stretcher.
- jmatchett383

My preference is to watch high flying, entertaining offense.
- ggunky

quiet, you!

It should be obvious to everyone that Giroux has been nothing but a disappointment. A bust, if you will.
- Scoob

Not a bust but vastly overrated.

- YuenglingJagr

Sorry, I forgot to include the atrocious officiating as well.

Not a bust but vastly overrated.
- JoeRussomanno

Yes, he's the new Joanthan Cheechoo.

And no, I don't remember anyone ever said he was/would be better than Crosby. he WAS better for a short 2-week period, but that was it.

- YuenglingJagr

That was a great save. Would you like me to post a clip of the Flyers scoring a goal from last week to show you how high-scoring they have been lately?

Good to see we are projected to keep Weise and Cousins on the bench to minimize the likelihood that our 4th line will score. Imagine the improvements if they came in for CVV and Lyubimov...
- blurop4

Not against you, but I am so tired of people harping on the 4th line as a fulcrum of team troubles.

They are what they are regardless who plays there. Top 9, and team defense are much bigger disappointment for me this season.

But carry on with the 4th line narrative.

- Scoob

To be fair, i am not saying they are mutually exclusive.

However, i think the focus on defense has taken away from the creative side of the game, the offensive side of the game.

Not against you, but I am so tired of people harping on the 4th line as a fulcrum of team troubles.

They are what they are regardless who plays there. Top 9, and team defense are much bigger disappointment for me this season.

But carry on with the 4th line narrative.
- missingmike

The issue with the 4th line is that Hak won't make major changes to it because the two main PKers are on it. But the PK is trash again, and needs changing more than anything.

To be fair, i am not saying they are mutually exclusive.

However, i think the focus on defense has taken away from the creative side of the game, the offensive side of the game.
- ggunky

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. But there's a middle ground between playing lock-down NZ defense and the drive thru lanes and shooter tutors used in that series.

Who said that? He was better than Crosby for a 2-week period in a joke display of hockey, but I don't think anyone ever said he would be better over the long term.
- jmatchett383

Oh c'mon we had our chests pumped about that for a little while.

That was a great save. Would you like me to post a clip of the Flyers scoring a goal from last week to show you how high-scoring they have been lately?
- jmatchett383

Not against you, but I am so tired of people harping on the 4th line as a fulcrum of team troubles.

They are what they are regardless who plays there. Top 9, and team defense are much bigger disappointment for me this season.

But carry on with the 4th line narrative.
- missingmike

I can't speak for everyone who was opposed to the Bellemare deal, but I didn't like it due more to the process than the result. It's not like the deal will impede the team's ability to make other moves. It will likely have no effect on any of the future moves either.

On a macro level, I'm concerned about their NHL talent evaluations though. They see value in Bellemare when his primary responsibilities haven't been handled well. The PK remains a weakness while the 4th line hasn't contributed much and continues to be outscored by a wide margin (Bellemare's even strength goal differential rate is only better than Vandevelde's over the last two seasons).

There really is no rational explanation for keeping Bellemare unless the team believes it's his linemates bringing him down (then why keep playing Vandevelde), his coach using him incorrectly on the PK (then why retain Lappy) or that he'll improve (he's in his 30s).

So why do people complain about him? Because replacing him is an easy and logical thing to do. It's much easier to find a better 4th line PKer than it is to find another top line center. Just because one thing is an issue doesn't mean the other isn't.

Also, using Bellemare on the 4th line hurts the team, but it's not that big of a deal because he doesn't log that many minutes. Using Bellemare and Vandevelde on the pk IS a big deal because a team is most likely to concede a goal when they're shorthanded, so using your two worst forwards for that stretch is going to result in more goals against (logic!).

In the end, Bellemare probably won't matter, but watching Hexy place more value on grit (Weise, Gordon, Bellemare) rather than skill is concerning about the future.

PhillySportsGuy

The issue with the 4th line is that Hak won't change it because the two main PKers are on it. But the PK is trash again, and needs changing more than anything.
- Feanor

The fourth line and PK are two seperate issues really. Changing the PK don't require changing the fourth line. But changing the fourth line will require changing the PK.

Coots-Simmer
G-Read

Changes the PK but doesn't mean the fourth line isn't VDV-PEB-Lyubi/Weise.

To be fair, i am not saying they are mutually exclusive.

However, i think the focus on defense has taken away from the creative side of the game, the offensive side of the game.
- ggunky

Personally i prefer lockdown tight checking hard hitting shutdown grindfests cknsisting of 4 goals or less i find them even more entertainibg when there are a lot of scoring chances with acrobatic saves by the netminders... that being said, I'm curious why you think playing defensively takes away from the offensive creativity.

The issue with the 4th line is that Hak won't change it because the two main PKers are on it. But the PK is trash again, and needs changing more than anything.
- Feanor

I would like a complete revamp on the PK.

I know Laperriere is a folk hero here but I think it needs a new direction. Also hoping that maybe guys like Laughton and Leier might be ready so they can use their speed to maybe put pressure on during the PK.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. But there's a middle ground between playing lock-down NZ defense and the drive thru lanes and shooter tutors used in that series.
- jmatchett383

Fair enough. Not arguing. Just having a conversation.

Personally i prefer lockdown tight checking hard hitting shutdown grindfests cknsisting of 4 goals or less i find them even more entertainibg when there are a lot of scoring chances with acrobatic saves by the netminders... that being said, I'm curious why you think playing defensively takes away from the offensive creativity.
- JoeRussomanno

How many defensive minded players score 30 goals a season now? If it's more than 2 hands I'll be shocked.

Personally i prefer lockdown tight checking hard hitting shutdown grindfests cknsisting of 4 goals or less i find them even more entertainibg when there are a lot of scoring chances with acrobatic saves by the netminders... that being said, I'm curious why you think playing defensively takes away from the offensive creativity.
- JoeRussomanno

it is scoring chances that make a game exciting, not goals (imho) I think it is a good point you make

The fourth line and PK are two seperate issues really. Changing the PK don't require changing the fourth line. But changing the fourth line will require changing the PK.

Coots-Simmer
G-Read

Changes the PK but doesn't mean the fourth line isn't VDV-PEB-Lyubi/Weise.
- dragonoffrost

Giroux shouldn't be a regular PKer anymore. He already plays enough minutes. Filppula was a regular PKer for Tampa.

Bellemare-Read could be one of the units. I don't expect PEB and VdV to be benched at the same time.

Personally i prefer lockdown tight checking hard hitting shutdown grindfests cknsisting of 4 goals or less i find them even more entertainibg when there are a lot of scoring chances with acrobatic saves by the netminders... that being said, I'm curious why you think playing defensively takes away from the offensive creativity.
- JoeRussomanno

I guess i am thinking about the 3rd man high and the extreme back-checking, to the point that you see players spend more energy back checking then for-checking.

The clutching and grabbing, hooking and holding.

I am not saying i don't want to see no defense, please don't misunderstand me.

I don't know, i don't want to get into a long drawn out debate about this, i just have found memories of hockey and today's game doesn't resemble what i grew up watching.

I know they say things improve with age, well in my opinion, the major sports that i watch, none of them are better today then they were 20 years ago.

Giroux shouldn't be a regular PKer anymore. He already plays enough minutes.

Bellemare-Read could be one of the units. I don't expect PEB and VdV to be benched at the same time.
- Feanor

Even that change doesn't make VDV leave the fourth line. I know G shouldn't be on PK anymore but if I want more agressive PK I'm not sure how you get it with this roster other than G and Read out there for the second kill pair. Maybe PEB and Read could be more aggressive than PEB-VDV but I just don't see it.

Edit: I forgot Filp since he just got here.

So yeah:

Coots-Simmer
Filp-Read.