I learned earlier the Blackhawks 4th line also sucks so we have that.
- mickel25

lol

Zero context.
- MJL

He was saying you seem to have insider knowledge that Torts has not changed his style.

Fine, but I guarantee you this is what will be said here when/if PEB and/or CV are replaced.

"Oh, swell, finally, but the 4th line still sucks."
- Scoob

Bellemare and Vandevelde could be replaced AND the 4th line could still suck. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't really care who plays on the 4th line. I do care who kills penalties though.

It's shocking to me just how many hockey professionals can be so very wrong.
- Scoob

I find it more shocking that Berube hasn't found another NHL head coaching job since being fired. I mean how can all 29 NHL teams not see the forest through the trees and hire such a tremendous coach. I guess they just don't have the vision Holmgren has.

He was saying you seem to have insider knowledge that Torts has not changed his style.
- mickel25

No, he's the one who is claiming to have that, not me.

I can't speak for everyone who was opposed to the Bellemare deal, but I didn't like it due more to the process than the result. It's not like the deal will impede the team's ability to make other moves. It will likely have no effect on any of the future moves either.

On a macro level, I'm concerned about their NHL talent evaluations though. They see value in Bellemare when his primary responsibilities haven't been handled well. The PK remains a weakness while the 4th line hasn't contributed much and continues to be outscored my a wide margin (Bellemare's even strength goal differential rate is only better than Vandevelde's over the last two seasons).

There really is no rational explanation for keeping Bellemare unless the team believes it's his linemates bringing him down (then why keep playing Vandevelde), his coach using him incorrectly on the PK (then why retain Lappy) or that he'll improve (he's in his 30s).

So why do people complain about him? Because replacing him is an easy and logical thing to do. It's much easier to find a better 4th line PKer than it is to find another top line center. Just because one thing is an issue doesn't mean the other isn't.

Also, using Bellemare on the 4th line hurts the team, but it's not that big of a deal because he doesn't log that many minutes. Using Bellemare and Vandevelde on the pk IS a big deal because a team is most likely to concede a goal when they're shorthanded, so using your two worst forwards for that stretch is going to result in more goals against (logic!).

In the end, Bellemare probably won't matter, but watching Hexy place more value on grit (Weise, Gordon, Bellemare) rather than skill is concerning about the future.
- PhillySportsGuy

I don't know if he's placing more value on grit, I think it's all he's ready to do through FA. I'm guessing he's not going to add a high priced free agent until he thinks they're ready to contend. They clearly are not ready, so it won't happen this summer. IMO, the thing he liked most about Filppula is he has one year left on the deal. I do hope he makes a deal or two this summer.

I believe this is Vandevelde's last season with the Flyers, but I could be wrong.
- MJL

Oh, thank goodness! Stanley Cup here we come!!!!1

I can't speak for everyone who was opposed to the Bellemare deal, but I didn't like it due more to the process than the result. It's not like the deal will impede the team's ability to make other moves. It will likely have no effect on any of the future moves either.

On a macro level, I'm concerned about their NHL talent evaluations though. They see value in Bellemare when his primary responsibilities haven't been handled well. The PK remains a weakness while the 4th line hasn't contributed much and continues to be outscored by a wide margin (Bellemare's even strength goal differential rate is only better than Vandevelde's over the last two seasons).

There really is no rational explanation for keeping Bellemare unless the team believes it's his linemates bringing him down (then why keep playing Vandevelde), his coach using him incorrectly on the PK (then why retain Lappy) or that he'll improve (he's in his 30s).

So why do people complain about him? Because replacing him is an easy and logical thing to do. It's much easier to find a better 4th line PKer than it is to find another top line center. Just because one thing is an issue doesn't mean the other isn't.

Also, using Bellemare on the 4th line hurts the team, but it's not that big of a deal because he doesn't log that many minutes. Using Bellemare and Vandevelde on the pk IS a big deal because a team is most likely to concede a goal when they're shorthanded, so using your two worst forwards for that stretch is going to result in more goals against (logic!).

In the end, Bellemare probably won't matter, but watching Hexy place more value on grit (Weise, Gordon, Bellemare) rather than skill is concerning about the future.
- PhillySportsGuy

No, he's the one who is claiming to have that, not me.
- MJL

My bad.

I find it more shocking that Berube hasn't found another NHL head coaching job since being fired. I mean how can all 29 NHL teams not see the forest through the trees and hire such a tremendous coach. I guess they just don't have the vision Holmgren has.
- PLindbergh31

lolz, okay bro, whatever. Humans make mistakes.

Trade simmonds. Get two top 10 picks. Move forward
- Just5

Come on, are you serious with that? 15 years, whatever. You can't just ignore his point. Like him or not, Tortorella is a good coach and was never "run out of the league."

gmafb
- Scoob

Well I didn't say he was run out of the league every other year? He crashed and burned with 2 teams in a matter of 2 years and then spent the next season as an analyst. It is the reason his name leaves a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of fans. Sorry if I used a little hyperbole in my description, but he is not the same coach he was in NY and VAN.

He adapted and is being rewarded for it

Thank you. This is very well said and kinda what i have been saying on here today, just not as articulate.

I agree Bellemare won't matter, but it is about their evaluation process.
- ggunky

Here is how the Flyers evaluation process is different from a fans. Talking about macro and micro. Instead of just looking at raw team numbers and statistics, they have a players performance broken down to a very micro level, down to every shift a player plays during a season. They also have other information at their disposal that we aren't privy to such as certain intangibles such as leadership and work ethic.

I believe this is Vandevelde's last season with the Flyers, but I could be wrong.
- MJL

I'm looking forward to see the next franchise he plays 250 games for.

Oh, thank goodness! Stanley Cup here we come!!!!1
- Scoob

Sorry you're wrong. It's when Bellemare is replaced they become cup contenders.

Dave Hakstol and Ron Hextall should be relieved of their duties. Claude Julien who is a well respected coach got fired despite being much better than Hakstol. Flyers hockey is going down the shatter with accepting all these losses. When you do not get results from your star players heads must roll and that starts with the coach or GM. Giroux, Voracek, Schenn and now Simmonds are in a funk for the last 20 games. I am not too proud of what is happening to my lifelong team. This accepting defeat with grace has to stop and no better way than to fire Hakstol for starters. My rant for the day but man that guy looks lost behind the bench.

lolz, okay bro, whatever. Humans make mistakes.
- Scoob

They sure do. Some make a lot more than others.

Here is how the Flyers evaluation process is different. Talking about macro and micro. Instead of just looking at raw team numbers and statistics, they have a players performance broken down to a very micro level, down to every shift a player plays during a season. They also have other information at their disposal that we aren't privy to such as certain intangibles such as leadership and work ethic.
- MJL

I am switching my hockey analysis machine to "Micro". I had been running it on "Macro" all this time. My sources with the Hawks, Pens and Kings told me to use Macro. Idiots.

Here is how the Flyers evaluation process is different from a fans. Talking about macro and micro. Instead of just looking at raw team numbers and statistics, they have a players performance broken down to a very micro level, down to every shift a player plays during a season. They also have other information at their disposal that we aren't privy to such as certain intangibles such as leadership and work ethic.
- MJL

Do you retype that every time or do you just copy and paste?

They sure do. Some make a lot more than others.
- PLindbergh31

And some people only focus on mistakes.

I don't know if he's placing more value on grit, I think it's all he's ready to do through FA. I'm guessing he's not going to add a high priced free agent until he thinks they're ready to contend. They clearly are not ready, so it won't happen this summer. IMO, the thing he liked most about Filppula is he has one year left on the deal. I do hope he makes a deal or two this summer.
- FlyerFan16

I guess I should have explained my thoughts better in that section. I don't necessarily mean this as Hexy not valuing skill. I meant it more in terms of mis-evaluating team needs this past offseason. He wanted to add grit and size when the team needed more skill.

I guess I feel like a team ALWAYS could use more skill.

Do you retype that every time or do you just copy and paste?
- YuenglingJagr

You've been reduced to this.

Well I didn't say he was run out of the league every other year? He crashed and burned with 2 teams in a matter of 2 years and then spent the next season as an analyst. It is the reason his name leaves a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of fans. Sorry if I used a little hyperbole in my description, but he is not the same coach he was in NY and VAN.

He adapted and is being rewarded for it
- YuenglingJagr

Did he? I haven't watched any of his post-game press conferences.

Well I didn't say he was run out of the league every other year? He crashed and burned with 2 teams in a matter of 2 years and then spent the next season as an analyst. It is the reason his name leaves a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of fans. Sorry if I used a little hyperbole in my description, but he is not the same coach he was in NY and VAN.

He adapted and is being rewarded for it
- YuenglingJagr

You have to give Torts full marks for his coaching adjustment. I love his emotion on the bench and I am sure it is contagious. He has full control of his players and they have bought in. This is something Dave Hakstol will never achieve as coach of the Flyers and one reason the team is so crappy. A shakeup is in order!

I guess I should have explained my thoughts better in that section. I don't necessarily mean this as Hexy not valuing skill. I meant it more in terms of mis-evaluating team needs this past offseason. He wanted to add grit and size when the team needed more skill.

I guess I feel like a team ALWAYS could use more skill.
- PhillySportsGuy

I believe he felt that Weise could add a combination of grit and skill, in the hopes that Weise could add physical play, and chip in 10-12 goals or so, and 25 points in a 3rd line role.