Oh, and I've only been saying this for 2+ years now......

*whispers*

Move Giroux back to the wing...
- mochoson

RW? Yeah you could, but Simmonds, Jake, Schenn and Konecny are all best used as RWs so I don't think that is the answer. The better answer is find a dynamic center in the 1st round of this year's draft. I also agree with PSG, as much as I love Simmonds, this offseason would be the optimal time to explore moving him.

No, I'm pretty sure Santa is just another manifestation of the Devil with Yellow Eyes
- Mononoke

Probably

I understand you're overall point. You're correct in that you can't assert all victories/shortcomings are due to the play of one line. However, in todays NHL, every skater you dress on a nightly basis is important. So while the play of the 4th line isn't alone causing the team to be sub-par, the personel on that line is.

It's absolutely mind-boggling Chris VandeVelde has yet to be sat in favor of a more skilled player. He is without question the least talented player on the entire roster other than MAYBE Nick Schultz (which Hakstol has, thankfully realized).

Show me 4 even lines that leave Chris VandeVelde and one of Read or Weise scratched and I'll show you how the Flyers win as many of the remaining games as possible.
- mochoson

as I said I want to see an upgrade of the bottom line. hell, throughout the lineup. I want to see them move on from CVV. I would have been fine to move on from PEB as well but I am fine with bringing him back. I get his role. I'm not going to go on and on about him because he has 3 goals. PEB is not the problem on this team. the fact that 3 other teams asked about PEB's availability (per Bill) tells you some teams value a player like him

Now after this season if CVV is back in any role outside of veteran for the Phantoms I will be annoyed.

I agree with this. Thing is, I hope that there is some youth in the lineup, because, for me as a fan, that makes them more interesting to watch.

Watching them be mediocre now is just painful. At least if there is some youth in the lineup, you can watch them (hopefully) progress and get better. Maybe play a bit more dynamically.
- johndewar

Buffalo would be a perfect example of a team filled with young prospects. Sure, they play like a hot mess, but at least the hope is they learn together to build a team and chemistry. It is extremely tough to watch and there is no guarantee for the team to become a contender in the future.

I think most fans have been frustrated with the Flyers bottom 6 because other teams use those positions for players within their organization, whereas the Flyers tend to sign "castaways" because it's the "safer" bet.

What kind?
- PhillySportsGuy

Apricot #1 and raspberry #2.

NOT prune. Just please not prune.

Buffalo would be a perfect example of a team filled with young prospects. Sure, they play like a hot mess, but at least the hope is they learn together to build a team and chemistry. It is extremely tough to watch and there is no guarantee for the team to become a contender in the future.

I think most fans have been frustrated with the Flyers bottom 6 because other teams use those positions for players within their organization, whereas the Flyers tend to sign "castaways" because it's the "safer" bet.
- Glak18

I don't disagree with this. I've said for yrs that it is a little frustrating that the Flyers rarely promote within on the bottom line altho perhaps part of that has been they haven't been happy with the options. Last one I remember liking outside of Hextall's drafts was Wellwood. I really liked his game. I have to think kids like Leier, Laughton, Cousins, etc are ready to take over the 4th line roles and maybe some of the 3rd line roles.

as I said I want to see an upgrade of the bottom line. hell, throughout the lineup. I want to see them move on from CVV. I would have been fine to move on from PEB as well but I am fine with bringing him back. I get his role. I'm not going to go on and on about him because he has 3 goals. PEB is not the problem on this team. the fact that 3 other teams asked about PEB's availability (per Bill) tells you some teams value a player like him

Now after this season if CVV is back in any role outside of veteran for the Phantoms I will be annoyed.
- nastyflyergirl

I'm hoping to see something like this next season, assuming no core player is moved:


Lindblom-G-Jake
Schenn-Filppula-Simmonds
Raffl-Coots-TK
Leier-PEB-Weise or Read

Edit: forgot Cousins, who I would put on LW on Coots line and move Raffl to 4th line RW. Read and Weise can have a seat

Apricot #1 and raspberry #2.

NOT prune. Just please not prune.
- Mononoke

Apricot at #1 is the correct answer

so Chicago is using a 4th line of Desjardins (0-1-1) - Kruger (2-11-13) - Tootoo (1-1-2). wonder if their fans moans as much as we do about our 4th line. Yeah, they are a top team yada yada yada. I want a better 4th line too but PEB is not the problem with this team nor is the 4th line. but hey lets get back to complaining about Gagner and the PEB and whatever else we can. Seriously some fans mine as well just stop following the team for another year or two while the young players develop
- nastyflyergirl

I don't really care all that much who they use on the 4th line at even strength, but using your two worst forwards during the highest leverage points of the game is idiotic.

Apricot #1 and raspberry #2.

NOT prune. Just please not prune.
- Mononoke

I had several cherry a few days ago. There are currently two chocolates left. Not a huge fan of the chocolate though.

Oh, and I've only been saying this for 2+ years now......

*whispers*

Move Giroux back to the wing...
- mochoson

Personally I would have to disagree with Giroux on the wing. Firstly, I find him too important on draws and for whatever reason why he looks bad now he would look even worse on the boards.

This is probably his future, but they really don't have the depth to do it now.
- PhillySportsGuy

We absolutely have the depth now that we have Filppula.

Weal-Couturier-Voracek
Konecny-Filppula-Giroux
Schenn-Cousins-Simmonds
Read-Bellemare-Lyubimov

We should have been iceing this line-up for months now, just sub Raffl for Weal. Giroux is not a number one NHL center right now. It's absolutely baffling that we've been as bad at 5v5 for as long as we have and it's never talked about.

We absolutely have the depth now that we have Filppula.

Weal-Couturier-Voracek
Konecny-Filppula-Giroux
Schenn-Cousins-Simmonds
Read-Bellemare-Lyubimov

We should have been iceing this line-up for months now, just sub Raffl for Weal. Giroux is not a number one NHL center right now. It's absolutely baffling that we've been as bad at 5v5 for as long as we have and it's never talked about.
- mochoson

Can't do this now, they'd win too many games and we'd just end up picking 14th or 15th.

We absolutely have the depth now that we have Filppula.

Weal-Couturier-Voracek
Konecny-Filppula-Giroux
Schenn-Cousins-Simmonds
Read-Bellemare-Lyubimov

We should have been iceing this line-up for months now, just sub Raffl for Weal. Giroux is not a number one NHL center right now. It's absolutely baffling that we've been as bad at 5v5 for as long as we have and it's never talked about.
- mochoson

And just so we're all clear here, yes...I am tiring of Hakstol very, very quickly.

We absolutely have the depth now that we have Filppula.

Weal-Couturier-Voracek
Konecny-Filppula-Giroux
Schenn-Cousins-Simmonds
Read-Bellemare-Lyubimov

We should have been iceing this line-up for months now, just sub Raffl for Weal. Giroux is not a number one NHL center right now. It's absolutely baffling that we've been as bad at 5v5 for as long as we have and it's never talked about.
- mochoson

Giroux is not a number 1 center but Coots is?

VDV is more productive than Bellemare and people don't like him (me included) but defend Bellemare. It's pretty strange. Both these guys are redundant players who aren't any good. Yet they play game after game after game.
I get it, there are bigger issues, but these are issues that can be solved from within. If the Flyers don't have players in the minors that are improvements over these guys what does that tell you?
- PLindbergh31

Makes sense and on paper it would seem like there should be a better option..

I just wanted to poke the bear a bit =)

And just so we're all clear here, yes...I am tiring of Hakstol very, very quickly.
- mochoson

He will go the way of Berube and Stevens. 3 of the last 4 head coaches had nothing to speak of in terms of an NHL resume. It's shocking Stevens or Berube haven't been hired as an NHL head coach since being fired isn't it?

No, I'm pretty sure Santa is just another manifestation of the Devil with Yellow Eyes
- Mononoke

I just want to know which people are real if any of them are.

I don't disagree with this. I've said for yrs that it is a little frustrating that the Flyers rarely promote within on the bottom line altho perhaps part of that has been they haven't been happy with the options. Last one I remember liking outside of Hextall's drafts was Wellwood. I really liked his game. I have to think kids like Leier, Laughton, Cousins, etc are ready to take over the 4th line roles and maybe some of the 3rd line roles.
- nastyflyergirl

I do like the fact Cousins was able to make a roster spot, but it is very rare to see. At least the perception is there. I have always had the sense the Flyers don't have the same type of environment other teams have when it comes to roster competition. They always seem to be hamstrung either by contract or loyalty which basically leaves their opening night roster set in stone.

Draft day rolls around and all that is heard is BAP, yet when it comes to the roster...is it really the same philosophy?

Can't do this now, they'd win too many games and we'd just end up picking 14th or 15th.
- BiggE

There's no difference been 7-17 for me this year. It's a weird draft, but a very under-rated one IMO. General consensus is it "sucks". I don't get that at all. There are some REALLY good players available.

What I will agree is that outside of about 5-6 guys, the rest are all "project players". This isn't necessarily a good or bad thing. This is the kind of draft I expect Chris Pyror to hit nothing but bombs in. I'm stoked we have 6 picks in the first 4 rounds. IMO, after pick 40, the talent level is pretty much even through the 4th round

I don't really care all that much who they use on the 4th line at even strength, but using your two worst forwards during the highest leverage points of the game is idiotic.
- PhillySportsGuy

The fact Hakstol has carved out a role for these guys is mind boggling. They aren't good pk guys. They don't drive play, they have zero offensive skills.... they are black holes of suck.

You're basically paraphrasing a bunch of my statements into an ill-fitted argument. The underperformance at even strength can be both poor coaching AND a lack of roster talent.


- PhillySportsGuy

My reply was meant to paraphrase the ill fitted argument you've offered, especially when it comes to criticizing the coach. Earlier today you singled him out as the common denominator. Now you're backtracking and stating that it's both, after I called you on it. If you posted that it is a shared blame between all parties, I wouldn't have an issue with that.

Simmonds - Just because I believe Simmonds isn't good at even strength doesn't mean I think he's bad. He's just not a guy who is going to influence possession much. He won't hurt you, but he won't help you. His even strength scoring is that of a low end 2nd liner. He's obviously elite on the PP and his ability to kill penalties adds to his versatility. He's also established himself as a leader and seems to be very well liked by his teammates. Those intangible things do matter to me. I just think it's a little strange when people put him in the untouchable category and leave him out of the blame game. He's two years from the end of his deal and this team doesn't appear to be trending towards contention within the next two years. Re-signing him on top of already having Giroux and Voracek going into their 30s seems very dangerous to me. That's why I'd look to move him this offseason. I appreciate him, but I'm just trying to be sensible about team building

Schenn - Schenn is worse than Simmonds at even strength. He negatively affects possession and scores at more of a 3rd line rate for most of his career (please spare me the "He scored a lot last year!" argument). His true value is on the PP where he has shown to be a good finisher. While Simmonds has worked to diversify his game, Schenn has become more of a one-trick pony. If the Flyers found someone who could play the middle of the diamond as well as Schenn on the PP, they likely wouldn't miss a beat without him.

Giroux - I'm not making excuses for him. He is clearly in decline and not worth the amount of his salary. From an on ice standpoint, he'll never be worth that salary again. Part of signing a guy to a long-term deal is acknowledging that you're getting the desired production upfront, but will, ultimately, overpay on the back end. If Giroux can get back to giving the team 25-30 points at even strength while continuing his stellar PP work, I think they can salvage the contract. I think that's reasonable enough. I just don't think it's a good idea to trade him because his value has never been lower. I don't believe he's as bad as he's been this year, so in my mind, they'd be selling low on him anyway. He also means a lot to the organization. For any Flyers fan between the ages of 16-25, he's likely their favorite player. That poop matters.


- PhillySportsGuy

That's the issue. You want to be spared of the fact that Schenn scored at a solid level at 5 on 5 under the same coach, because it doesn't fit your narrative. It simply proves that he is capable, and that if he isn't getting it done this year, it's on the player. Giroux has a track record, so I have the same hope that he can rebound but it's just a hope at this point. I think it's only fair to give a number of players the benefit of the doubt knowing that they can all play better. You question those who are unwilling to blame Simmonds, but are unwilling yourself to blame Giroux. His sub par play is the single biggest issue with this team now and moving forward. I don't see a willingness on your part to acknowledge that.

The Gagner thing is just part of a bigger picture problem. The Flyers aren't scoring under Hak and it's hard to point to the players as the singular reason why. I would, personally, go in another direction with the coach, but I'm not going to be upset if Hak is back. Maybe he can make adjustments that get them better looks at the net.

The players haven't played well, Hexy didn't help the roster and the coach hasn't coached well. All of those things can be true.
- PhillySportsGuy

Contradiction here, you claim that the issue is the coach, then in the last sentence say it's all three. Exactly what I'm talking about. You say it's hard to point to the players as the singular reason why. I agree they're not the singular reason why but it's obvious they're the biggest reason why.

Giroux is not a number 1 center but Coots is?
- opeth_pa

Coots is the closest thing we have to a number one center, yes. The comparison between him and Giroux defensively right now is night and day. Giroux on Filppulas wing would give him a similar player with at least comparable talent to be creative with offensively.

Giroux does most of his offensive damage on the PP anyway. I'm up for re-organizing that as well, but I'm ok with baby steps. The first PP unit should ultimately run through a triangle of Giroux, Voracek, and either Ghost/Provorov no matter what.

Buffalo would be a perfect example of a team filled with young prospects. Sure, they play like a hot mess, but at least the hope is they learn together to build a team and chemistry. It is extremely tough to watch and there is no guarantee for the team to become a contender in the future.

I think most fans have been frustrated with the Flyers bottom 6 because other teams use those positions for players within their organization, whereas the Flyers tend to sign "castaways" because it's the "safer" bet.
- Glak18

I think it's more about what they think is better for the younger players, and where they should be developing, in the hope that they might possibly develop into more than a 4th line low minute player.