You're basically paraphrasing a bunch of my statements into an ill-fitted argument. The underperformance at even strength can be both poor coaching AND a lack of roster talent.

Simmonds - Just because I believe Simmonds isn't good at even strength doesn't mean I think he's bad. He's just not a guy who is going to influence possession much. He won't hurt you, but he won't help you. His even strength scoring is that of a low end 2nd liner. He's obviously elite on the PP and his ability to kill penalties adds to his versatility. He's also established himself as a leader and seems to be very well liked by his teammates. Those intangible things do matter to me. I just think it's a little strange when people put him in the untouchable category and leave him out of the blame game. He's two years from the end of his deal and this team doesn't appear to be trending towards contention within the next two years. Re-signing him on top of already having Giroux and Voracek going into their 30s seems very dangerous to me. That's why I'd look to move him this offseason. I appreciate him, but I'm just trying to be sensible about team building

Schenn - Schenn is worse than Simmonds at even strength. He negatively affects possession and scores at more of a 3rd line rate for most of his career (please spare me the "He scored a lot last year!" argument). His true value is on the PP where he has shown to be a good finisher. While Simmonds has worked to diversify his game, Schenn has become more of a one-trick pony. If the Flyers found someone who could play the middle of the diamond as well as Schenn on the PP, they likely wouldn't miss a beat without him.

Giroux - I'm not making excuses for him. He is clearly in decline and not worth the amount of his salary. From an on ice standpoint, he'll never be worth that salary again. Part of signing a guy to a long-term deal is acknowledging that you're getting the desired production upfront, but will, ultimately, overpay on the back end. If Giroux can get back to giving the team 25-30 points at even strength while continuing his stellar PP work, I think they can salvage the contract. I think that's reasonable enough. I just don't think it's a good idea to trade him because his value has never been lower. I don't believe he's as bad as he's been this year, so in my mind, they'd be selling low on him anyway. He also means a lot to the organization. For any Flyers fan between the ages of 16-25, he's likely their favorite player. That poop matters.

The Gagner thing is just part of a bigger picture problem. The Flyers aren't scoring under Hak and it's hard to point to the players as the singular reason why. I would, personally, go in another direction with the coach, but I'm not going to be upset if Hak is back. Maybe he can make adjustments that get them better looks at the net.

The players haven't played well, Hexy didn't help the roster and the coach hasn't coached well. All of those things can be true.
- PhillySportsGuy

Can't wait for the inevitably even bigger response

female dog please. Check out my favorite team
- YuenglingJagr

I'm checking out alright

so Chicago is using a 4th line of Desjardins (0-1-1) - Kruger (2-11-13) - Tootoo (1-1-2). wonder if their fans moans as much as we do about our 4th line. Yeah, they are a top team yada yada yada. I want a better 4th line too but PEB is not the problem with this team nor is the 4th line. but hey lets get back to complaining about Gagner and the PEB and whatever else we can. Seriously some fans mine as well just stop following the team for another year or two while the young players develop

Start listing teams that have 4 or 5 regular forwards who have zero or 1 goal in their last 20 games. Eagerly await the list.
- PLindbergh31

Wow...I never realised the Flyers have had trouble scoring goals this season.

You're looking in the wrong place if you think the 4th line will address that.

You're basically paraphrasing a bunch of my statements into an ill-fitted argument. The underperformance at even strength can be both poor coaching AND a lack of roster talent.

Simmonds - Just because I believe Simmonds isn't good at even strength doesn't mean I think he's bad. He's just not a guy who is going to influence possession much. He won't hurt you, but he won't help you. His even strength scoring is that of a low end 2nd liner. He's obviously elite on the PP and his ability to kill penalties adds to his versatility. He's also established himself as a leader and seems to be very well liked by his teammates. Those intangible things do matter to me. I just think it's a little strange when people put him in the untouchable category and leave him out of the blame game. He's two years from the end of his deal and this team doesn't appear to be trending towards contention within the next two years. Re-signing him on top of already having Giroux and Voracek going into their 30s seems very dangerous to me. That's why I'd look to move him this offseason. I appreciate him, but I'm just trying to be sensible about team building

Schenn - Schenn is worse than Simmonds at even strength. He negatively affects possession and scores at more of a 3rd line rate for most of his career (please spare me the "He scored a lot last year!" argument). His true value is on the PP where he has shown to be a good finisher. While Simmonds has worked to diversify his game, Schenn has become more of a one-trick pony. If the Flyers found someone who could play the middle of the diamond as well as Schenn on the PP, they likely wouldn't miss a beat without him.

Giroux - I'm not making excuses for him. He is clearly in decline and not worth the amount of his salary. From an on ice standpoint, he'll never be worth that salary again. Part of signing a guy to a long-term deal is acknowledging that you're getting the desired production upfront, but will, ultimately, overpay on the back end. If Giroux can get back to giving the team 25-30 points at even strength while continuing his stellar PP work, I think they can salvage the contract. I think that's reasonable enough. I just don't think it's a good idea to trade him because his value has never been lower. I don't believe he's as bad as he's been this year, so in my mind, they'd be selling low on him anyway. He also means a lot to the organization. For any Flyers fan between the ages of 16-25, he's likely their favorite player. That poop matters.

The Gagner thing is just part of a bigger picture problem. The Flyers aren't scoring under Hak and it's hard to point to the players as the singular reason why. I would, personally, go in another direction with the coach, but I'm not going to be upset if Hak is back. Maybe he can make adjustments that get them better looks at the net.

The players haven't played well, Hexy didn't help the roster and the coach hasn't coached well. All of those things can be true.
- PhillySportsGuy

Great answer. However, you spent far too much time. Especially when you consider the opponent. Three hours from now you will wish you had just logged off.

boy gordon
- YuenglingJagr

It may not have worked out as planned, and that's fine, but you can't deny the logic behind the signing was sound. What this team still lacks -- and is the nexus for their shortcomings this year -- is size and face-offs.

Start listing teams that have 4 or 5 regular forwards who have zero or 1 goal in their last 20 games. Eagerly await the list.
- PLindbergh31

Im eagerly awaiting the list that shows PEB is the worst scoring forward in the league as per your statement yesterday.

Great answer. However, you spent far too much time. Especially when you consider the opponent. Three hours from now you will wish you had just logged off.
- mickel25

I really don't know what he's doing. He knows better. Just been one of those days for him, I guess. Needs to scream into the void.

Im eagerly awaiting the list that shows PEB is the worst scoring forward in the league as per your statement yesterday.
- opeth_pa

32 points in his last 222 NHL games. .14 points per game.
I think you will be hard pressed to find totals that futile the last 3 seasons.

32 points in his last 222 NHL games. .14 points per game.
I think you will be hard pressed to find totals that futile the last 3 seasons.
- PLindbergh31

/MJL HAT ON
That isn't what you said though, you said worst scoring forward in the NHL not over the past 3 seasons.
/MJL HAT OFF

Im eagerly awaiting the list that shows PEB is the worst scoring forward in the league as per your statement yesterday.
- opeth_pa

He's the 2nd worst scoring 5v5 forward per game, among qualified players, since he joined the NHL, ahead of only Jacob Josefson. He's actually behind all the notable face-punchers. This year he is 4th worst among players with at least 500 minutes (our boy Dale is #1 fwiw).

He was technically wrong....but the pit where his heart should be was in the right place.

/MJL HAT ON
That isn't what you said though, you said worst scoring forward in the NHL not over the past 3 seasons.
/MJL HAT OFF



- opeth_pa

But what's his role on the team? You can only judge him within the confines of his "role" on the team.

/MJL HAT ON
That isn't what you said though, you said worst scoring forward in the NHL not over the past 3 seasons.
/MJL HAT OFF



- opeth_pa

VDV is more productive than Bellemare and people don't like him (me included) but defend Bellemare. It's pretty strange. Both these guys are redundant players who aren't any good. Yet they play game after game after game.
I get it, there are bigger issues, but these are issues that can be solved from within. If the Flyers don't have players in the minors that are improvements over these guys what does that tell you?

I'm the only one who still believes
- Mononoke

In Santa Claus?

so Chicago is using a 4th line of Desjardins (0-1-1) - Kruger (2-11-13) - Tootoo (1-1-2). wonder if their fans moans as much as we do about our 4th line. Yeah, they are a top team yada yada yada. I want a better 4th line too but PEB is not the problem with this team nor is the 4th line. but hey lets get back to complaining about Gagner and the PEB and whatever else we can. Seriously some fans mine as well just stop following the team for another year or two while the young players develop
- nastyflyergirl

I understand you're overall point. You're correct in that you can't assert all victories/shortcomings are due to the play of one line. However, in todays NHL, every skater you dress on a nightly basis is important. So while the play of the 4th line isn't alone causing the team to be sub-par, the personel on that line is.

It's absolutely mind-boggling Chris VandeVelde has yet to be sat in favor of a more skilled player. He is without question the least talented player on the entire roster other than MAYBE Nick Schultz (which Hakstol has, thankfully realized).

Show me 4 even lines that leave Chris VandeVelde and one of Read or Weise scratched and I'll show you how the Flyers win as many of the remaining games as possible.

I really don't know what he's doing. He knows better. Just been one of those days for him, I guess. Needs to scream into the void.
- Mononoke

I went back and forth. I hate when he paraphrases me and tries to make my arguments seem ridiculous, so I felt the need the set the record straight.

That's my last post to him for the day though.

VDV is more productive than Bellemare and people don't like him (me included) but defend Bellemare. It's pretty strange. Both these guys are redundant players who aren't any good. Yet they play game after game after game.
I get it, there are bigger issues, but these are issues that can be solved from within. If the Flyers don't have players in the minors that are improvements over these guys what does that tell you?
- PLindbergh31

Ding, ding, ding. My thoughts exactly.

I went back and forth. I hate when he paraphrases me and tries to make my arguments seem ridiculous, so I felt the need the set the record straight.

That's my last post to him for the day though.
- PhillySportsGuy

He is Vader trying to get Luke to go to the Darkside.

Great answer. However, you spent far too much time. Especially when you consider the opponent. Three hours from now you will wish you had just logged off.
- mickel25

So true

Oh, and I've only been saying this for 2+ years now......

*whispers*

Move Giroux back to the wing...

In Santa Claus?
- BiggE

No, I'm pretty sure Santa is just another manifestation of the Devil with Yellow Eyes

He is Vader trying to get Luke to go to the Darkside.
- mickel25

He really is.

Someone really needs to study him.

Oh, and I've only been saying this for 2+ years now......

*whispers*

Move Giroux back to the wing...
- mochoson

This is probably his future, but they really don't have the depth to do it now.

You high strung (frank)ers need to relax and eat a hamantaschen and just enjoy the second wave of the Push tonight

hamantaschen
- Mononoke

What kind?