if that was the return for Simmonds I'd be pissed. I imagine Kessel's salary had a bit to do with the return.
- nastyflyergirl

retaining a million helps a good bit. im sure its gonna suck in the last two years but oh well.

I think everyone agrees that Simmonds is a valuable trade chip.
- MJL

i dont know what you guys can do. its hard to think one way or the other until a definitive decision is made about giroux.

How the hell are we going to afford Ryan White this offseason

Umm what offensive numbers? If he were healthy he'd be on pace for 16 goals. He's played nearly 400 games and he's got 65 goals. I'll never get the Coots obsession. Btw, Bergeron plays against the oppositions best players too and he has scored 30 goals three times. Enough with the Coots excuses.
- Flyers1218

Bergeron is an elite player. Poor comparison. Couturier like the rest of the team has not had a good season offensively, but he has put up 2nd line center scoring numbers at ES in seasons past, while also playing against the opposition's best. I understand and agree with the criticism for this season, but just can't ignore past seasons.

You're in bed with Keller. And understandably so. But Keller being immovable I think has more to do with the team that he's on. A team being ripped to the bones in a rebuild. If Keller were a MN prospect...you wouldn't think he'd be available in a 1 for 1?
- Just5

Well, he's on Arizona so it's a hypothetical. He is an elite potential 1C prospect, and those just don't really get traded. Often they get to the NHL very quickly too, so the window to acquire them is small. But that's what happens with prospects. As soon as they get taken, they're worth more than the pick you could have taken them with. Trading for the 7th last year, which I was a broken record about, would have been cheaper than trading for Keller now.

Please just tell me that potential 1C you want in a trade for Simmonds. Name a name or two. Because I'd wager you can't come up with one. It'd be like a team asking for Provorov last year. It was just a non-starter, didn't matter the value.

Well I'm not trying to be a GM by naming specific names, and calling it a good deal. That's the point.
- MJL

Well I'm trying to frame a trade in general instead of whistling Dixie out my ass. We agonize over the pieces...did you read the article link to that behind the scenes deadline deals piece in this thread earlier? The one GM mentioned how a trade started out being offered a single 4th rounder to ending at a high 2nd and a prospect or something. Because of the other teams involved.

We can all agree demand on Simmonds would be sky high

Well I'm trying to frame a trade in general instead of whistling Dixie out my ass. We agonize over the pieces...did you read the article link to that behind the scenes deadline deals piece in this thread earlier? The one GM mentioned how a trade started out being offered a single 4th rounder to ending at a high 2nd and a prospect or something. Because of the other teams involved.

We can all agree demand on Simmonds would be sky high
- Just5

As I said earlier, I think you're mistaken that Simmonds could fetch a prospect with 1C potential and a first round pick. I don't care what article you read. That is whistling dixie.

Well, he's on Arizona so it's a hypothetical. He is an elite potential 1C prospect, and those just don't really get traded.

Please just tell me that potential 1C you want in a trade for Simmonds. Name a name or two. Because I'd wager you can't come up with one. It'd be like a team asking for Provorov last year. It was just a non-starter, didn't matter the value.
- Mononoke

It wouldn't be bc the Flyers weren't buyers at all and Hextall has a long term plan in place.

Filip Forsberg trade is an example of a prospect with first line upside

Sam Steel in Anaheim....they have Kesler/Getzlaf signed until 2020 what are they going to do there?

Luke Kunin could be have 1C potential in the eyes of some.

You just never know with a desperate GM. Simmonds is someone that can come in and change a room along with potting 30.

Kunin and a 1st. Somewhere along those lines is what the flyers could get IMO.

Well I'm trying to frame a trade in general instead of whistling Dixie out my ass. We agonize over the pieces...did you read the article link to that behind the scenes deadline deals piece in this thread earlier? The one GM mentioned how a trade started out being offered a single 4th rounder to ending at a high 2nd and a prospect or something. Because of the other teams involved.

We can all agree demand on Simmonds would be sky high
- Just5

Also can agree that it would be a bidding war for Simmonds, as several teams would have interest. And in that case, there's always one team desperate enough to overpay.

It wouldn't be bc the Flyers weren't buyers at all and Hextall has a long term plan in place.

Filip Forsberg trade is an example of a prospect with first line upside

Sam Steel in Anaheim....they have Kesler/Getzlaf signed until 2020 what are they going to do there?

Luke Kunin could be have 1C potential in the eyes of some.

You just never know with a desperate GM. Simmonds is someone that can come in and change a room along with potting 30.

Kunin and a 1st. Somewhere along those lines is what the flyers could get IMO.
- Just5

The odds are not good of another GM making the mistake that McPhee made.

It wouldn't be bc the Flyers weren't buyers at all and Hextall has a long term plan in place.

Filip Forsberg trade is an example of a prospect with first line upside

Sam Steel in Anaheim....they have Kesler/Getzlaf signed until 2020 what are they going to do there?

Luke Kunin could be have 1C potential in the eyes of some.

You just never know with a desperate GM. Simmonds is someone that can come in and change a room along with potting 30.
- Just5

Yeah, I in no way would trade Kunin or Steel for Simmonds as centerpieces. They are not elite blue chip prospects, and I certainly don't look at them as 1C types. I mean, sure, they could magically turn into one like any prospect, but they're no better prospects than Rubtsov and there is no reason to project them as such at the moment. Kunin may just end up at wing anyway. And I don't care about Steel's point totals on that absurd Regina team; he's not at that level. That's what I'm saying. There just aren't really many out there, and none are being traded.

Elite winger prospects are in greater # and more readily available. It's not like we don't need those too. That magical 1C probably just has to be drafted.

Bergeron is an elite player. Poor comparison. Couturier like the rest of the team has not had a good season offensively, but he has put up 2nd line center scoring numbers at ES in seasons past, while also playing against the opposition's best. I understand and agree with the criticism for this season, but just can't ignore past seasons.
- MJL

It's not a poor comparison. The excuse that playing against another team's best players precludes him from scoring is a fallacy. It can be done as proven by not just Bergeron.

39 points in his best year? 65 goals in 400 games? That's 2nd line center production? lol, ok, whatever you say. Blind love for a player people are desperate to be more then he is.

Yeah, I in no way would trade Kunin or Steel for Simmonds as centerpieces. They are not elite blue chip prospects, and I certainly don't look at them as 1C types. I mean, sure, they could magically turn into one like any prospect, but they're no better prospects than Rubtsov and there is no reason to project them as such at the moment. Kunin may just end up at wing anyway. And I don't care about Steel's point totals on that absurd Regina team; he's not at that level. That's what I'm saying. There just aren't really many out there, and none are being traded.

Elite winger prospects are in greater # and more readily available. It's not like we don't need those too. That magical 1C probably just has to be drafted.
- Mononoke

I just think Simmonds is an overvalued commodity around the league right now even with his cheap contract. Take advantage of it. Think Goligoski for Niskanen/Neal. Hell think Richards for Schenn/Simmonds.

The inquiries would pour in

this is the same team as last year except they added two talented kids in Konecny (granted hurt now) and Provorov and Weise over White. In today's NHL with a salary and a lot of parity they were a bubble team that made the playoffs last year. I expected more of the same this year. maybe slightly better. we all know they are a flawed lineup that still needs work but I am somewhat baffled at the drop off.
- nastyflyergirl

everyone got worse. and the FA replacements have done less than zero. seen boyd gordon lately? yeah, me neither.

G and V have generally produced their points, although streaky...and we've all been saying if Schenn an Couts can chip in more, and more consistently, it would make up for the production of guys like briere and hartnell...well....now none of them doing anything.

the D is atrocious. the G has been equally bad overall, although there have been a few excellent performances.

provorov has been as advertised and i have no concerns there. gost, on the other hand...fell off a cliff. he's been getting better over the last few games, but it means nothing.

ugh.

and yet chicago and pittsburgh with their top guys over the last 10 years are right there. again. as usual. while we've gone backwards. badly.

Best Oscars ever!

YuenglingJagr, I'm thinking of you, pal.

I just think Simmonds is an overvalued commodity around the league right now even with his cheap contract. Take advantage of it. Think Goligoski for Niskanen/Neal. Hell think Richards for Schenn/Simmonds.

The inquiries would pour in
- Just5

you make a good point, just hard to wrap my head around trading Simmonds.

Maybe try to move him and Streit to a team like Anaheim and get back Fowler plus a pick and then move Ghost, 1st round, and read for Duchene. Frees up salary and get a younger more skilled forward and d is still a young more rounded top pairing player

It's not a poor comparison. The excuse that playing against another team's best players precludes him from scoring is a fallacy. It can be done as proven by not just Bergeron.

39 points in his best year? 65 goals in 400 games? That's 2nd line center production? lol, ok, whatever you say. Blind love for a player people are desperate to be more then he is.
- Flyers1218

Yes it is a poor comparison. Bergeron is one of the best all around forwards in the entire NHL. Coturier in 3 separate seasons has scored top 60 in points at ES among NHL centers. That is 2nd line production.

Yes it is a poor comparison. Bergeron is one of the best all around forwards in the entire NHL. Coturier in 3 separate seasons has scored top 60 in points at ES among NHL centers. That is 2nd line production.
- MJL

For all the fancy stats or reasons why here is a fact that can't be denied, Coots has never produced more than 39 points in a season...

This year is a wash for him, 9th on the team in point production, while last year was his best with 39 points in 63 games. If you throw out the high and low seasons you are left with a player that averages in the low to mid 30s in points per season.

I don't understand why some people are so unwilling to say he isn't a great choice at 2c or he is a great choice at 3c.

What I know is I don't just move him for the hell of it.. As I have said before, I believe will be part of the reason this team turns around at some point but he is not untouchable.

For all the fancy stats or reasons why here is a fact that can't be denied, Coots has never produced more than 39 points in a season...

This year is a wash for him, 9th on the team in point production, while last year was his best with 39 points in 63 games. If you throw out the high and low seasons you are left with a player that averages in the low to mid 30s in points per season.

I don't understand why some people are so unwilling to say he isn't a great choice at 2c or he is a great choice at 3c.

What I know is I don't just move him for the hell of it.. As I have said before, I believe will be part of the reason this team turns around at some point but he is not untouchable.
- opeth_pa

The difference between a player getting 39 points and say 50-55 is what?

For all the fancy stats or reasons why here is a fact that can't be denied, Coots has never produced more than 39 points in a season...

This year is a wash for him, 9th on the team in point production, while last year was his best with 39 points in 63 games. If you throw out the high and low seasons you are left with a player that averages in the low to mid 30s in points per season.

I don't understand why some people are so unwilling to say he isn't a great choice at 2c or he is a great choice at 3c.

What I know is I don't just move him for the hell of it.. As I have said before, I believe will be part of the reason this team turns around at some point but he is not untouchable.
- opeth_pa

Agree 100%

Observations:

- Team just isn't good enough right now. But they are what we thought they were. They are a flawed roster and the decline/regression of Giroux, whatever you want to call it has really been a major reason.

- Depth scoring...yes guys like Couturier and other players need to contribute. But back to point one, when your best guys is playing like the best guy things fall into place a little better.

- Couturier....Yes he needs to produce more. But he is only 24. He is hitting his prime. We like to relive the bad trades the Flyers make and talk about Patrick Sharp because he was a late bloomer. He hit his stride at 26. We talk about needing help for Giroux but how many times has Couturier been saddled with average wingers. When has Couturier been his best? When playing with guys like Voracek and Konecny. Maybe I am a Couturier apologist. I guess I just see a player that has the skill and could break out.

- Hackstol...Have I liked all his lineups..No? Do I think he is doing whatever he can to win..Yes. BUt a lot falls on the players. They just are playing well. I thought this weekend the coach showed his lack of confidence in his roster. Couturier and Voracek have been playing well together but for the pens game they were split up. Voracek played with Schenn and Cousins. Couturier was with Weise and Raffl. To me I took that as he wasn't fully confident in putting a line of Raffl - Cousins - Read-Weise out there against the pens.

- Hextall...He is sticking to his plan as painful as it is. He won't give up prospects for rentals or guys that don't make sense for the future. He also won't go spending big money on free agents that aren't going to be part of the future. I think if he sees something that makes sense he will pounce. He will be patient until it's time not to.

- Giroux...Is a lot put on Giroux..Yes. Is it fair..Maybe not. but that is something that comes with being the captain and highest paid player. The thing about his decline that scares me is not that he is being unlucky or he isn't getting bounces. What worries me is he doesn't look to have any explosion in his skating, he avoids the high traffic areas, he seems to get lazy in the defensive zone. Just things that aren't really skill related. He was never fast but he always had a little quick twich good first step. He was also able to turn a guy in corners and get out to make plays. And now he stays to the perimeter.


Maybe I am just an idiot. but these are the things that are my opinions on this team.

The difference between a player getting 39 points and say 50-55 is what?
- MJL

So his total points over the past 3 seasons (where he should have been improving with experience) has him @ 74th overall among centers. I am not sure why its ONLY even strength production we are looking at.


I am a big Couts supporter, but he hasnt become what any of us had hoped...

So his total points over the past 3 seasons (where he should have been improving with experience) has him @ 74th overall among centers. I am not sure why its ONLY even strength production we are looking at.


I am a big Couts supporter, but he hasnt become what any of us had hoped...
- jak521

If we're talking 2nd line center, then why shouldn't we only look at ES production? If we look at a lot of other centers that many fans would think he would be great to have as our 2nd line center, we'd find that in seasons past, he is comparable to those players at ES production. The difference is PP points, that's where Couturier comes up short. The issue is that the Flyers haven't had a strong 2nd unit PP in a while, and certainly Couturier is part of that. We've had this discussion before. Based on his usage and deployment, Couturier has put up strong ES numbers in seasons past. He is not this season, which is fair criticism. IF we can get a better center to take over and use Couturier as a 3rd line center, that's great. That would make the Flyers a stronger team. If not, Couturier is a capable 2nd line NHL center.

Best Oscars ever!

YuenglingJagr, I'm thinking of you, pal.
- Mononoke

Was really awkward when everyone at my La La Land themed Oscars watch party found out they didnt actually win

Observations:

- Team just isn't good enough right now. But they are what we thought they were. They are a flawed roster and the decline/regression of Giroux, whatever you want to call it has really been a major reason.

- Depth scoring...yes guys like Couturier and other players need to contribute. But back to point one, when your best guys is playing like the best guy things fall into place a little better.

- Couturier....Yes he needs to produce more. But he is only 24. He is hitting his prime. We like to relive the bad trades the Flyers make and talk about Patrick Sharp because he was a late bloomer. He hit his stride at 26. We talk about needing help for Giroux but how many times has Couturier been saddled with average wingers. When has Couturier been his best? When playing with guys like Voracek and Konecny. Maybe I am a Couturier apologist. I guess I just see a player that has the skill and could break out.

- Hackstol...Have I liked all his lineups..No? Do I think he is doing whatever he can to win..Yes. BUt a lot falls on the players. They just are playing well. I thought this weekend the coach showed his lack of confidence in his roster. Couturier and Voracek have been playing well together but for the pens game they were split up. Voracek played with Schenn and Cousins. Couturier was with Weise and Raffl. To me I took that as he wasn't fully confident in putting a line of Raffl - Cousins - Read-Weise out there against the pens.

- Hextall...He is sticking to his plan as painful as it is. He won't give up prospects for rentals or guys that don't make sense for the future. He also won't go spending big money on free agents that aren't going to be part of the future. I think if he sees something that makes sense he will pounce. He will be patient until it's time not to.

- Giroux...Is a lot put on Giroux..Yes. Is it fair..Maybe not. but that is something that comes with being the captain and highest paid player. The thing about his decline that scares me is not that he is being unlucky or he isn't getting bounces. What worries me is he doesn't look to have any explosion in his skating, he avoids the high traffic areas, he seems to get lazy in the defensive zone. Just things that aren't really skill related. He was never fast but he always had a little quick twich good first step. He was also able to turn a guy in corners and get out to make plays. And now he stays to the perimeter.


Maybe I am just an idiot. but these are the things that are my opinions on this team.
- J35Bacher

Your pretty much spot on, here is my take of the five biggest reasons this team is struggling

1. Goaltending
Night in and night out they are simply not getting good enough goaltending to win consistently at the NHL level. Both goalies have given up way too many momentum crushing soft goals. This would be difficult for a top team to overcome, let alone a bubble team like the Flyers

2. Giroux
Claude Giroux, for whatever reason, has simply not produced at the level that he needs to in order for this team to succeed. It really is that simple.

3. Lack of overall depth
They just aren't good enough to win consistently unless all 18 skaters are performing well and they are getting above average goaltending. Look at the center position as a good example. After Giroux, who is having a terrible season and Couturier, they have no one who has any business centering a top 3 line in the NHL. On D, they have one legit top 3 Dman, and he's a just turned 20 year old rookie. They are also thin at LW and the goalies have been bad. RW is the only position with any real quality and depth.

4. Coaching
When I say coaching, I'm not just talking about Hakstol, though I'll get to him in a minute. The PK is too passive and has been ever since Lappy started running it. The pp, under Joe Mullen, has become stale and predicable. Yeah, he's finally made some adjustments over the last couple of games, but you have to wonder why it took so long for him to do so. Now back to Hak. While I like his overall system and the style of play that he preaches, I have to disagree with a lot of lineups, and player usage. He doesn't seem to be improving at all in his 2nd NHL season, but, as I've stated before, I'd like to see what he can do with a lineup that can successfully play his system before making final judgement on him. However, that being said, the best coaches find a way to tailor their systems to better fit their personnel. Hak, much like Lavy, seems to have a hard time doing that.

5. They are not good enough at even strength
This is due primarily to their personnel. They have a general lack of speed, skill and size throughout the lineup and this causes them to struggle at ES. When that happens, you are forced to rely on special teams to have any chance to succeed. When you add in an average at best PK and poor goaltending, the pp, even when it's firing on all cylinders, which it hasn't done for much of this year, will not be enough to carry them.